Cullen announces Metro North route

Winters

gobdaw wrote:

The M50, with it's huge embankment, is the elephant in the corner. Cut n cover accross the M50, with carriageways closed, would create mayhem with Dublin traffic.!

The M50 is not the issue here it is the stretch through Ballymun. The route is going over the m50 and there is no need to go under it.

Whether the line goes at grade, cut and cover or elevated through Ballymun will not effect how the line crosses the M50.

The only way it would be affected would be if the RPA moved the TBM launch pit from Albert College Park to north of Dublin Airport which they dont want to do.

spacetweek

If underground in Ballymun, it only needs to go as far as the intersection with Santry Ave. After this, the area is undeveloped or industrial. Overlooking and anti-social behaviour in the shadows under support pylons would not be a problem. Have the railway change grade in the road median; from underground to ground level (fenced off) to up on supports. I was in Berlin recently and observed this arrangement on a number of U-bahn lines.

I estimate the extra tunnel section at 1,200 m.

strassenwolf

Today's Indo wrote:

TAXPAYERS will have to pay an extra €100m for Dublin's Metro to the Airport - before the contract for the project has even been signed.

Residents in Ballymun, who opposed the Metro North line running overground through the rejuvenated suburb, have won a major victory.

It now appears that the Rail Procurement Agency will agree to put the Metro underground at Ballymun - adding a further €100m to the €2bn project costs.

The Metro North will run for 17km, half underground, half above ground.

A trip from the city centre to Swords will take just 26 minutes. The line will be fully segregated from road traffic and is projected to reduce road journeys by 100km annually.

The proposed route for the Metro West line will run parallel with the M50 and connect with the Luas Red Line at Tallaght.

It will also connect with the Kildare and Maynooth commuter railway lines, with the Lucan Luas and with Metro North at Ballymun, serving Clondalkin, Liffey Valley and Blanchardstown. It is expected to take around 40,000 cars off the streets when it is operational in 2012.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1753572&issue_id=15100

Interesting news about the metro through Ballymun.

But I'd have thought the Indo might get the bit about the metro west right - Isn't is supposed to be operational in 2010, and fully open in 2014? Hopefully we won't end up squandering money on it at all, at least not in the foreseeable future, but those are the currently planned dates.

spacetweek

DerekP11 wrote:

But I reckon its gonna be closer to the "island" so it can serve the Luas extension to Liffey Junction. (ultimately part of linking green and red Luas lines, but without any form of through running on the Luas lines)

Did I read this right - are line BX and the Liffey Junction line not going to be all the same? Like, you get on a tram at Liffey Junction and finish up at Charlemont? Or will you have to get off and transfer to another one? Gah!

Victor

mackerski wrote:

Where in the middle of London was the Jubilee built this way? Not on the stretch built in the 70s anyway, and if it was used at all on the more recent extension I'm guessing it must have been well into the Docklands.

Right outside the Houses of Parliament IIRC. I'm not sure what was built there though.

mackerski

Victor wrote:

Right outside the Houses of Parliament IIRC. I'm not sure what was built there though.

That has to have been the construction of Westminster station. It (like many of the others on the Jubilee extension) is open and spacious all the way down to the line. The line itself, though, is built at a very deep level, and is bored rather than cut & cover. I can't imagine that you could cut & cover at this depth even if you wanted to, and you certainly couldn't have over the Jubilee's onward route (under Waterloo station and Canary Wharf, for instance).

ronbyrne2005

I heard people living above proposed tunnel in Drumcondra on radio complaining that they will be somehow affected. One woman complained of having the metro station 20metres from her back garden! People would give their right arm to have an underground next door but all these biddies can do is moan about hypothetical distruption to them or their properties.

markf909

On a different note, I heard that Albert College Park is to be used as a depot during the construction of Metro North and thus will be closed for a number of years.

Can anyone confirm this?

Victor

That is likely to be the case, although there is the option of using part of Hillside Farm.

markf909

Cheers for that Victor, our rugby team use there for pre-season fitness work, we'll have to find somewhere else so!

ad hoc

The RPA have just posted most of the draft Metro North alignment drawings online.

http://www.rpa.ie/metro/maps/metro_north_maps

Skyhater

ad hoc wrote:

The RPA have just posted most of the draft Metro North alignment drawings online.

http://www.rpa.ie/metro/maps/metro_north_maps

I still can't understand why they can't build the Airport Metro stop directly underneath the new Terminal 2 !!!!
Seems the cheapest and Best Option!!! Just needs the RPA and DAA to bang their heads together!!

Knowing Ireland, you have to walk the couple of hundred metres outside in the wet to access the metro.... Hope I'm wrong!!!

loyatemu

I know this has been asked before, but why doesn't it connect with the DART at the Northern end - its an obvious way to improve connectivity between 2 major modes of transport and improve the flexibility of the overall transport network.

For the sake of the a mile or so of surface railway, it seems ridiculous that its not being done.

Enigma365

I know this has been asked before, but why doesn't it connect with the DART at the Northern end - its an obvious way to improve connectivity between 2 major modes of transport and improve the flexibility of the overall transport network.

For the sake of the a mile or so of surface railway, it seems ridiculous that its not being done.

Good question. I'm sure theres a reason although I can't think of what it would be. Metro west could connect with the dart either.

Skyhater

loyatemu wrote:

I know this has been asked before, but why doesn't it connect with the DART at the Northern end - its an obvious way to improve connectivity between 2 major modes of transport and improve the flexibility of the overall transport network.

For the sake of the a mile or so of surface railway, it seems ridiculous that its not being done.

Fundamentally the problem is:
Dart run by IE
Metro run by RPA

Neither organisations have any real incentive to give us an integrated network.
This is one MAJOR side effect of the Government choosing to circumnavagate the problems within CIE by giving us the RPA.

Integration should be the main area of concern for "Dial-Up Dempsey". At this stage we probably need a 3rd organisation to look at it !!!!

Prof_V

I believe Fingal CC resisted making a reservation for Metro to Donabate because the community didn't want the level of development it would be likely to generate.

loyatemu

surely its Fingal CC who control the level of development regardless of whether the metro runs through the area. They should connect - thats a totally bogus reason not to do it...

MarkoP11

In reality metro west is going to be extended to Howth Junc/Grange Rd

Metro can't be justified unless it runs through a fairly densely built on area, if the locals don't want the resulting development well what can you do

spacetweek

MarkoP11 wrote:

In reality metro west is going to be extended to Howth Junc/Grange Rd

Marko do you have a source or is that speculation? It would be a great idea, the DART Northern Fringe idea shouldn't have been dropped. We still need a connection across that area.

MarkoP11

Funds included in T21 to study such a route

Have also a map from a certain agency indicating a later extension east from junction metro north and west

loyatemu

its a dumb compromise (if it happens) - it means northern line users wanting to go to the airport will have to change at least twice instead of once.

in a straight line its approx 4km from Lissenhall stop to Donabate station across open countryside. From the proposed Metropark junction of MW and MN to the DART at Grange Rd its over 7km through some quite built up areas.

There may be merit in doing both, but the northern connection seems the better of the two.

btw - Donabate will be on the DART post-interconnector. It will end up being heavily developed regardless of whether metro north is extended there. If I were living there I'd be happy to see it brought to the town.

bk

loyatemu wrote:

its a dumb compromise (if it happens) - it means northern line users wanting to go to the airport will have to change at least twice instead of once.

But you could just as easily argue that if Metro North was connected to the DART rather then Metro West, then northern line users wanting to head to Blanchardstown, Tallaght, etc. would have to make two changes.

Anyway with decent scheduling and I assume high frequency rates (max 10 minutes) on Metro, it wouldn't really be such a big deal.

spacetweek

ad hoc wrote:

The RPA have just posted most of the draft Metro North alignment drawings online.

http://www.rpa.ie/metro/maps/metro_north_maps

I wonder if the Swords stop indicated in this document is going to be at-grade? In which case they'll have to close most of the dualler?

Probably not so it'll be elevated.

weehamster

:mad:
Firstly to everybody. Please stop calling it the 'Metro' West. Please call it Luas West as that is exactly what that line is. It has nothing in common with a metro. At least the Metro North is fully segregated and can deserve the title 'Metro'.

Anyway

MarkoP11 wrote:

Funds included in T21 to study such a route

Have also a map from a certain agency indicating a later extension east from junction metro north and west

I hope your wrong. That 'Metro' East line would only serve linking the Northern Line to 'Metro' North/West and nothing else. It will kill off any other line which will serve existing Households, not new development which seem to always gets the new lines.

The Platform for Change (which many seem to have forgotten about or see as irrelevant because of the inferior T21) recommended a Luas line from Howth Jtn to Whitehall (via Coolock, Artane) linking up with the then proposed Dundrum to Santry Luas line.

Now that we have the 'Metro' North taking up half of the Dundrum to Santry Route, it is still possible to have a Tram from Howth Jtn (via Coolock, Artane) to cross Metro North and possibly onward to Finglas. There it could meet with a possible Luas extension coming up from Liffey Jtn / Broadstone Line (which is been looking at by the RPA).

There is a misguided way of thinking that the 'Metro' North is great for Northsiders. Thats is simply not true. Apart from Swords, Southsiders and like any other line, unless you live within 20 to 30 min walk from a station, its useless.

The 'Luas' West or extension to the DART bypass existing Northside households. A Luas going East/West through existing areas would give Northsiders access to the 'Metro' North Line as well as people who would use the Northern Line.

monument

weehamster wrote:

:mad:
Firstly to everybody. Please stop calling it the 'Metro' West. Please call it Luas West as that is exactly what that line is. It has nothing in common with a metro. At least the Metro North is fully segregated and can deserve the title 'Metro'.

It's far more progressive to stop this kind of backward thinking when it comes to branding of transport systems.

'Dublin Metro' should be the brand for the whole system - buses, trams, err large trams, the Dart etc. As with Metro systems in places like LA and DC http://www.mta.net/ and http://www.wmata.com/

bk

weehamster wrote:

:mad:
Firstly to everybody. Please stop calling it the 'Metro' West. Please call it Luas West as that is exactly what that line is. It has nothing in common with a metro. At least the Metro North is fully segregated and can deserve the title 'Metro'.

And who are you to tell us what to call it?

First of all I'm under the impression that it will be fully segregated, just not underground.

Also I agree with monument we should be looking at an integrated naming like in London (London Underground, London Bus, London Rail, London Tram, etc.) and all under the authority of TfL.

We badly need more integration, not less.

weehamster wrote:

I hope your wrong. That 'Metro' East line would only serve linking the Northern Line to 'Metro' North/West and nothing else. It will kill off any other line which will serve existing Households, not new development which seem to always gets the new lines.
....
The 'Luas' West or extension to the DART bypass existing Northside households. A Luas going East/West through existing areas would give Northsiders access to the 'Metro' North Line as well as people who would use the Northern Line.

It is an old argument, do you build through existing low density housing estates, where is going to cost more and face local objections or do you build through green field sites where it will be cheaper and easier and via planning permission you can encourage high density housing along the line.

From the environmental and city development point of view the latter is the much better option, as long as you give DB a kick up the ass to set up feeder services to serve the nearby older housing estates and connect them to the Metro.

weehamster wrote:

There is a misguided way of thinking that the 'Metro' North is great for Northsiders. Thats is simply not true. Apart from Swords, Southsiders and like any other line, unless you live within 20 to 30 min walk from a station, its useless.

Wow great job in stating the obvious, Metro North will serve a great deal of the North side of the city. Sure there are still big gaps in the Northside that should be filled in with future Luas development and DB feeder services.

An important point to make is that when T21 is completed, DB needs to radically change from mostly radial type services heading into the city, to feeder services feeding nearby Metros, trams and Darts.

loyatemu

bk wrote:

But you could just as easily argue that if Metro North was connected to the DART rather then Metro West, then northern line users wanting to head to Blanchardstown, Tallaght, etc. would have to make two changes.

Anyway with decent scheduling and I assume high frequency rates (max 10 minutes) on Metro, it wouldn't really be such a big deal.

not just the airport - O'Connell St, Parnell Square, Drumcondra
I think the numbers looking to get to the airport plus these areas will far outnumber those trying to get to areas on Metro West (given the dispersed nature of development in west Dublin, I'm dubious about the usefulness of Metro west anyway).

it has also been suggested that some MW services will continue onto the airport line anyway and could then be continued to Donabate if the line was extended.

Weehamster - the project is called "Metro West" - why the hell would we refer to it by any other name?

Skyhater

bk wrote:

..........First of all I'm under the impression that it will be fully segregated, just not underground............

"Metro" west will not be Grade separated at all junctions..... Just the Major ones (N7, N4, N3, N2, etc). It will cross minor junctions at grade.

It initially was going to use a wider bodied Tram....But now it looks like it's going to use a standard Luas tram.
It will have longer platforms, etc to aid future longer trams, and it will have it's own alignment (except for the "at grade" crossings).

To sum up....It's alot closer to being a Luas then say "Metro North"......and Not even close to being a Heavy Rail Metro, which this city needs to run along key routes.
Wait for the Dart Interconnector to be build...... The capacity of the new Dart network will show people what "Metro" and Luas line really are.... Trams!!!

bk

Skyhater wrote:

"Metro" west will not be Grade separated at all junctions..... Just the Major ones (N7, N4, N3, N2, etc). It will cross minor junctions at grade.

That is fairly ok, as long as it get priority at these junctions, it can still be relatively high speed and it would still make it a Metro, not really a street running tram.

Skyhater wrote:

To sum up....It's alot closer to being a Luas then say "Metro North"......and Not even close to being a Heavy Rail Metro, which this city needs to run along key routes.
Wait for the Dart Interconnector to be build...... The capacity of the new Dart network will show people what "Metro" and Luas line really are.... Trams!!!

In many ways these arguments about what makes a tram versus a Medium Capacity Metro versus Heavy Rail Metro is all fairly silly.

Luas, Metro and Dart are all trams, just built to different specifications (speed, acceleration, frequency and capacity, yes there are other differences, but these are what are important to users).

I think the thing the confuses a lot of people, is that the Luas is about the highest spec street running tram you can get, it has a much higher spec then many trams run in other European cities and really isn't all that far off the specs of a Medium Capacity Metro. It certainly has the speed and acceleration, put it on segregated track and it will have the frequency, it only falls slightly short on capacity.

If you can increase the capacity and preferably make it wider and put it on mostly segregated track, then really it does have all the features of a Medium Capacity Metro.

As for the argument of Medium Capacity Metro versus heavy rail Metro. I much prefer to wait just 3 minutes for a fast medium capacity Metro, then wait 10 to 15 minutes for a slow but high capacity Dart.

bk

loyatemu wrote:

not just the airport - O'Connell St, Parnell Square, Drumcondra

For O'Connell St, just get the DART to docklands station and take one change to LUAS to get to O'Connel St.

Parnell Square, Drumcondra, I'd actually think that there would be more people heading to Tallaght, Blanchardstown, etc. then either of these locations.

I actually don't really disagree with you, I'm just making the point that you can still do it and that it isn't possible to please all commuters.