Cullen announces Metro North route

Navan Junction

The route for the north section of Dublin's proposed underground metro is to be announced today.

Minister for Transport Martin Cullen is due to make the announcement at noon.

Metro North is another step in the roll-out of projects under Transport 21 but costings have not been made public.

Widely varying figures of between €1.2 billion and €4 billion have been mooted and there questions over whether a case for the project has been proven.

Mr Cullen has said a Metro is supported the Dublin Transportation Office and cites the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) analysis showing the project makes economic sense.

One of the main purposes of the Metro is to provide a rail link from Dublin Airport to the city centre. The route will continue past the airport to Swords but the route south of the airport has been a source of considerable discussion.

A route taking in Glasnevin and Botanic Gardens is one option linking with a proposed west bound Metro at Ballymun. This central corridor option is opposed by a group of engineers and developers who believe should oriented further east along route taking in Whitehall and Santry.

A western corridor route taking in Finglas and Cabra was also considered.

The project is due to be completed by 2012.

© The Irish Times/ireland.com

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2006/1019/breaking20.htm

strassenwolf

This is one case where the proposed costs will need to be revealed.

If it's 1.2 billion, then it may be the preferable option.

If it's heading towards 4 billion you'd have to have to ask if the following would not be a better deliverer of passengers:

(a) interconnector, costed by IE at 1.3 billion Euro some years ago, so let's say 2 billion Euro by the time it's built;
(b) doubletracking of the northern DART line, current estimates are, I believe, around about 500 million Euro;
(c) a line from the northern DART line to the airport (and Swords), facilitated by the above doubletracking, estimated at 400 million Euro in IE's original plan, so let's say 500 million Euro by the time it's built;
(d) development of the existing line between Navan and Drogheda, also considerably facilitated by the above doubletracking, probably considerably less than 100 million Euro;
(e) development of a LUAS line between the city and Ballymun - 400 million Euro?
(f) development of a LUAS line between the city and Finglas via Broadstone - 300 million Euro?

Total - 3.8, let's say 4 billion Euro.

?

antoinolachtnai

A metro (*CORRECTION* I meant to say LUAS) to Ballymun would basically be a waste of money. There just isn't the road space to make it run rapidly.

The thing about the costings is whether you include the financing and other project costs. This will give you a completely different (although in many ways more useful) figure compared to considering the actual engineering/construction costs alone.

That is one of the reasons the costings that are kicked around vary so widely.

bk

So they have selected the alternative central route. No surprise there, I'm glad they listened to the feedback from everyone here.

Metro North will have 15 stops available for passengers who want to make the journey from the city centre to the airport and beyond. These will be located at St Stephens Green, OConnell Bridge, Parnell Square (possible stop), Mater Hospital, Drumcondra, Griffith Avenue, Dublin City University, Ballymun, Santry Demense, Metropark, Dublin Airport, Nevinstown, Swords, Seatown and Lissenhall.

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=8316&lang=ENG&loc=1887

loyatemu

will the Drumcondra stop have an interchange with the maynooth lines(s) there?
its not indicated in the press release...

bk

loyatemu wrote:

will the Drumcondra stop have an interchange with the maynooth lines(s) there?
its not indicated in the press release...

I would assume so, however you are right the press release is very vague.

For instance what does "Parnell Square (possible stop)" mean. Is it or isn't it happening.

Also where on Griffith Avenue will the stop be, it is a very long road.

And where will the exits of the OConnell Bridge stop be, that will make a big difference to how good this is.

Hopefully we won't have to wait long for further clarification.

MarkoP11

its all explaned http://www.platform11.org/transport21/metro/metro_north_route.php

Parnell Street stop is some kind of werid token gesture unlikely to happen

therecklessone

Are these maps accurate?

The listed stops seem to include elements of the red and blue lines.

Am I right in thinking the Nevinstown stop is the M1 side of Airside? Why the hell did they choose that instead of nearer the R132 (old N1)?

therecklessone

Marko's link seems to suggest it will be nearer the R132. T'will do me.

johnnyrotten

anyone got an accurate link with a detailed map?
Is the Airport Station at the Main terminal building or at the Great SOuthern Hotel?

aliveandkicking

johnnyrotten wrote:

anyone got an accurate link with a detailed map?
Is the Airport Station at the Main terminal building or at the Great SOuthern Hotel?

www.transport.ie/upload/general/8316-0.pdf

The airport station is underground midway beyween T1 and T2.

Slice

Does anyone know which section will be on elevated track?

Metrobest

It's a brilliant route, the best of all combinations. This is going to be the jewel in the crown of Dublin's transport.

It's a very exciting day for Dublin, and for Ireland. Finally the thing I've dreamed about - a quality transport line for Dublin - is on the brink of reality.

The public and media must all unite behind the project. The media must act responsibly and not stoke public fear. The next few days are going to be crucial in setting the tone of how this project will proceed over the next six years.

bk

Metrobest wrote:

It's a brilliant route, the best of all combinations. This is going to be the jewel in the crown of Dublin's transport.

Yes, I have to agree. It is just a pity that they are not going to continue it south on the Luas Green route, that would really make it exceptional.

Parnell St is also a really good idea. It would really help the revitalisation of O'Connell St as the number one shopping street.

It would allow for a rerouting of bus services. You could have circular bus routes, all north side routes circle at northern end of O'Connell St, all south side routes at Stephens Green, have no buses go through the city centre and connect the two via Metro and Luas.

Navan Junction

loyatemu wrote:

will the Drumcondra stop have an interchange with the maynooth lines(s) there?
its not indicated in the press release...

According to Martin Cullen on the news at one the "Metro will have full connectivity with Iarnród Éireann at Grlasnevin", which probably means it won't.

Parnell st is undecided but from his days in the OPW he knows that it has a strong case.

He also said that there will be Metros every 90 seconds and that dispite 15 stops, the journey time will be 17 minutes.

I'm not sure whether he said it was a MagLev or not.

Winters

Glasnevin isnt on the cards anymore, its Drumcondra. Bloody hell Martin, its been on your desk for the last 3 weeks!

I would imagine that with the omission of the Trinity deviation and the addition of the airport underground stop that 17 mins can be ramped down to 15 mins or so.

Parnell is interesting. I wonder what criteria it is being analysed on.

Nevistown and Airside are two different places and there is some confusion as to where the perferred stop will be.

johnnyrotten

aliveandkicking wrote:

www.transport.ie/upload/general/8316-0.pdf

The airport station is underground midway beyween T1 and T2.

That map is not very detailed at all.

Where did you get the info about the location of the Airport station?

strassenwolf

antoinolachtnai wrote:

A metro to Ballymun would basically be a waste of money. There just isn't the road space to make it run rapidly.

Antoin, do you mean a LUAS to Ballymun would be a waste, rather than a METRO to Ballymun? As I understand it, the Metro will travel either under the road or over the road through Ballymun. A LUAS would probably travel along the road, as it does elsewhere in Dublin where the roadspace must be shared.

The thing about the costings is whether you include the financing and other project costs. This will give you a completely different (although in many ways more useful) figure compared to considering the actual engineering/construction costs alone.

A very fair point. But note that the figures (4 billion) in my earlier post include approximately 2 billion euro for the interconnector. If the costings for the interconnector are included elsewhere in the T21 plans, there may be considerable money available for rolling stock, etc, before we are getting anywhere near some of the figures which have been suggested for the metro.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know did Minister Cullen mention anything more concrete today about the costs of the project? And did he say anything about a possible LUAS link-up in the City?

Navan Junction

strassenwolf wrote:

As a matter of interest, does anyone know did Minister Cullen mention anything more concrete today about the costs of the project?

No. He said no details of the Cost Benefit Analysis would be revealed until tenders were in..

Probably after the election...:rolleyes:

bryanw

Metrobest wrote:

It's a brilliant route, the best of all combinations. This is going to be the jewel in the crown of Dublin's transport.

Also have to say that I fully agree. I hope everything goes well... They are really going to have to keep all options open to extend it along the Green Luas - even if not right away. Because there will come a time when we need it.

The P11 page with the stop details is very informative - well done!

antoinolachtnai

Have corrected my reference to the metro above. Sorry!

Well, the cost mentioned for the interconnector (EUR 1.2bn) is a pure land/engineering/construction cost as I understand it.

The financing is really quite a lot. If you pay off over 30 years at five percent, the interest will be around the same as the constuction cost. If the contract includes operations and maintenance, it will obviously be more.

Of course, there are questions to be asked about the IR/Parsons Brinkerhoff costing (as there are about the RPA costing). The reality is that it is very difficult to give a budget for a tunneling project. There is a good chance it will cost more.

What I wonder is what is going to happen at Stephen's Green. They're going to need around 5 or 6 escalators from ground level to platform level in order to service the massive volume of people who will be ascending and descending between the Luas and the Metro. This will especially be the case when they lengthen the luas trains and make them more frequent. Facilitating the interconnector stop at Stephen's Green will make things even crazier.

There will have to be a way to evacuate the station within a few minutes, which is going to be tricky.

It would seem to me to make more sense to extend out to Ranelagh and join with the Luas there. They would need to buy some land but they could there buy land with low-density, non-period housing and then sell the land again at the end of the project as a site for apartments, so the land cost isn't that great. This would make the Stephen's Green station a lot more straightforward. (This is just my outsider's opinion, I don't know what analyses have been done.)

aliveandkicking

Metrobest wrote:

It's a brilliant route, the best of all combinations. This is going to be the jewel in the crown of Dublin's transport.

It's a very exciting day for Dublin, and for Ireland. Finally the thing I've dreamed about - a quality transport line for Dublin - is on the brink of reality.

The public and media must all unite behind the project. The media must act responsibly and not stoke public fear. The next few days are going to be crucial in setting the tone of how this project will proceed over the next six years.

For once metrobest I completely agree with you about the metro

Metrobest

BK, I agree with you that Parnell Square would be an ideal place for a funkadelic bus/metro interchange. I hope a stop is built there as metro is key to the urban regeneration of that dangerous area.

When the metro and luas are in place, along with integrated ticketing, there is simply no excuse for the smoggy Dublin Bus double deckers to be choking up the streetlets of Dublin and all buses should terminate at Parnell Sq or Stephen's Green.

I want to compliment Martin Cullen on sticking like a leech by the metro plan. Of all the transport ministers ever to serve our country, no minister has done more for public transport and no minister has had such a firm understanding of his brief.

I listened to him on Radio 1 and it's clear he's got a firm grasp on the project and you can hear his passion for it. Let's give credit where credit's due. He gets my e-vote ;-)

Victor

Threads merged and re-named.

bk

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Well, the cost mentioned for the interconnector (EUR 1.2bn) is a pure land/engineering/construction cost as I understand it.

The financing is really quite a lot. If you pay off over 30 years at five percent, the interest will be around the same as the constuction cost. If the contract includes operations and maintenance, it will obviously be more.

I was under the impression, that most of the T21 projects, including the Metro, would be paid out of the normal, yearly infrastructure costs (€34 Billion over 10 years is about €3 Billion per year or less then 2.5% of GDP which would be well in line with normal infrastructure expenditure) and that they wouldn't need to borrow for it ala the DART.

So €1.2 Billion would be the real cost and very acceptable IMO. Sort of blows your argument out of the water.

MrJoeSoap

Am I missing something or will this Metro North make it from the city centre to the airport in 17 minutes... with 15 stops?

ronbyrne2005

Metrobest wrote:

BK, I agree with you that Parnell Square would be an ideal place for a funkadelic bus/metro interchange. I hope a stop is built there as metro is key to the urban regeneration of that dangerous area.

Dangerous area? One of Dublins best restaurants is on Parnell Square along witht the gallery etc. By your definition everywhere in Dublin city centre is dangerous.

On the metro , im happy that the griffith avenue stop is close to my house and will benefit those living near the station.

markf909

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Am I missing something or will this Metro North make it from the city centre to the airport in 17 minutes... with 15 stops?

There are less than 15 stops between the Airport and the Stephens green. 9 I think.

MrJoeSoap

markf909 wrote:

There are less than 15 stops between the Airport and the Stephens green. 9 I think.

Ah right, still fairly good going. With trains increasing to every 90 seconds it will be a great addition.

antoinolachtnai

I didn't mean to make any argument, I just wanted to state some provisos.

I don't think *any* estimate has been published for the current metro proposals, so it's hard to compare an interconnector costing to the metro costing which is the issue I was addressing.

Figures for metro are bandied around informally, but it is never clear what is included in those figures.

There is obviously no point comparing a fully-loaded interest-inclusive metro costing with an unloaded construction-only interconnector costing.

I don't think the borrowing/not borrowing issue is all that relevant. Capital has a cost, however you finance it. As I understand it, financing will be built into the PPP contract for the metro. As I understand it, this structure is used because of eurozone borrowing caps. Even if it wasn't, you would still have to consider the cost of capital.

You cannot predict at this stage whether the government will have cash available in 5 years time, when the project is in in full-swing. It may have to borrow, or it may not.

Normal infrastructure expenditure is going to include routine renewals and extensions, and T21 is in addition to that (which doesn't necessarily make it bad value), so the 2.5 percent typical figure isn't really a good guide.

bk

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

On the metro , im happy that the griffith avenue stop is close to my house and will benefit those living near the station.

I would have preferred if it was on the corner of Swords road and Griffith Avenue, would have served a larger area then.

Annoyingly there is already a bus service that runs along Griffith Avenue West of Swords road, but non East of Swords road. I hope Dublin Bus start a bus service running the length of Griffith Avenue (maybe interconnecting with the DART at Clontarf station) bringing residents to the Metro station.

bk

antoinolachtnai you are missing the whole point, the T21 was always planned to be financed out of the normal yearly infrastructure costings. That was why the Dept Of Finance held up the plans for so long as they were arguing with the Dept of Transport over the budgetary amount.

So there is no point in trying to make it look more expensive then it is by trying to add interest costs, when there will be no interest costs.

antoinolachtnai

Just because you aren't taking a loan for a specific project, doesn't mean the interest rate doesn't matter. If nothing else, the interest rate represent interest foregone. If the money hadn't been spent on Metro, the money could have been put on deposit and earned a return.

In the case of Ireland there is a significant debt already. If the money were not spent on Metro, it could be put towards the national debt and so reduce interest payments. So effectively the money is borrowed, even though it hasn't been specifically borrowed for this particular project.

Note: I am not arguing that the government should not borrow money to spend on this project or that the project is bad value for money. There is nothing wrong with borrowing for good projects, if this is a good project. I am just pointing out how things work.

Anyway, the rights and wrongs of presenting costs are immaterial here. The important point is that you can't compare a fully-loaded cost with an unloaded cost.

spacetweek

therecklessone wrote:

Are these maps accurate?

The listed stops seem to include elements of the red and blue lines.

Am I right in thinking the Nevinstown stop is the M1 side of Airside? Why the hell did they choose that instead of nearer the R132 (old N1)?

It is beside the N1. In P11 Marko says that the "line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover" - he means old N1 - there's no such thing as an "old M1".

Victor

News from RPA (not authorised yet).

http://www.rpa.ie/metro/news/press

October 19th 2006 - Metro North Press Release (0.36MB) http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=127

October 19th 2006 - Metro North Chairman's Statement (0.57MB) http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=128

This page would suggest today's announcement was contingent on the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006. I wonder if the president has signed it yet.

http://www.rpa.ie/?id=312

MarkoP11

spacetweek wrote:

It is beside the N1. In P11 Marko says that the "line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover" - he means old N1 - there's no such thing as an "old M1".

Fair cop

From the maps we have seen Airside is where the stop is going, Nevinstown would require a huge deviation and it only works with the Great Southern option at Dublin Airport.

Airside won't be the stop name since its commerical and may change

Victor

Victor wrote:

News from RPA (not authorised yet).

http://www.rpa.ie/metro/news/press

October 19th 2006 - Metro North Press Release (0.36MB) http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=127

October 19th 2006 - Metro North Chairman's Statement (0.57MB) http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=128

Wow, they've pulled these already. :eek:

MarkoP11 wrote:

Airside won't be the stop name since its commerical and may change

Its also confusing. Like "Hospital" (think: how many hospitals are with a 5 minute walk of the Red Line).

Victor

spacetweek wrote:

It is beside the N1. In P11 Marko says that the "line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover" - he means old N1 - there's no such thing as an "old M1".

[finicky]There is at Gormanstown.[/finicky]

Wishbone Ash

spacetweek wrote:

It is beside the N1. In P11 Marko says that the "line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover" - he means old N1 - there's no such thing as an "old M1".

Neither is there an N1 (in this area). It changed to the R132 three years ago.


I see the Bailey Brothers (Bovale Developments/Mahon Tribunal) have been quick off the blocks. A while back, they purchased a farm at Lissenhall (beside the proposed terminus). Nice little park and ride site adjacent to the M1??

Victor

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I see the Bailey Brothers (Bovale Developments/Mahon Tribunal) have been quick off the blocks. A while back, they purchased a farm at Lissenhall (beside the proposed terminus). Nice little park and ride site adjacent to the M1??

I'm sure the procrastination has aided many a developer.

bk

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Just because you aren't taking a loan for a specific project, doesn't mean the interest rate doesn't matter. If nothing else, the interest rate represent interest foregone. If the money hadn't been spent on Metro, the money could have been put on deposit and earned a return.

:rolleyes: Many argue that even under the T21 plan Ireland's expenditure on capital infrastructure for a developing country like Ireland is too low and your trying to say that we should be spending the money on servicing the national debt instead.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

In the case of Ireland there is a significant debt already. If the money were not spent on Metro, it could be put towards the national debt and so reduce interest payments. So effectively the money is borrowed, even though it hasn't been specifically borrowed for this particular project.

Actually Irelands national debt is not significant, it is about 28% of GDP, which is one of the lowest figures in Europe.

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/printer_1000article_10005097.shtml

In these days of cheap credit, Irelands national debt policy is considered very conservative by most.

Because Ireland is a developing country with years of underinvestment in infrastructure, we badly need to spend a lot more on infrastructure, no matter how much it costs.

We badly need the Metro, along with the Interconnector, Luas, Dart projects, etc.

wyndham

The good people at aircoach probably aren't too happy today.;) Taxis will also suffer.

Ball park price for journey airport-stephens green? Anyone like to take shot in the dark?

e5?

e2?

e8?

Wishbone Ash

wyndham wrote:

The good people at aircoach probably aren't too happy today.;) Taxis will also suffer.

Ball park price for journey airport-stephens green? Anyone like to take shot in the dark?

e5?

e2?

e8?

Do you mean by Aircoach, taxi or the Metro? Bear in mind that it will be at least 6 years before it's operating.

weehamster

Metrobest wrote:

It's a brilliant route, the best of all combinations. This is going to be the jewel in the crown of Dublin's transport.

I have to say that this 'Lite' Metro North is a much welcomed addition to Dublin’s Public Transport system, and I really like the RPA being flexible with the route. Especially the revised route intersecting Drumcondra station (dont forget that the Maynooth line will be upgraded to a DART). However this it is not the "jewel in the crown".

That title can only be applied to the Interconnector (current cost is €1.5b, due to the revised plan for a longer tunnel past inchicore), which will have the biggest impact on Dublin by far. But because it is Irish Rails baby, and the Government dont get on well with them (cant say I really blame them), it has been left to the very last.

In regard to the cost of the project, dont forget the whole plan was redesigned and is now a tram hybrid and not a real metro which is what the original proposal was suppose to be. Because of this change the costs are much lower, so you can forget the €4b+ figure which was the 2004 figure for the original metro proposal. The figure of €1.2b is more realistic. However I’m not sure if the costs of the trams are included.

Winters

Between €2.50 and €2.60 single Id day.

Dub13

Winters wrote:

Between €2.50 and €2.60 single Id day.

Which is quicker and cheaper than Aircoach,surely when this opens they will have to change there route.

admiralofthefleet

its a pity there isnt a spur to the huge new devalopements at clarehall/clongriffin and around the hilton at clare hall.
the malahide road wont be able to cope and the proposed new dart station at grange will only add to the already overcrowded dart system.


gar

Wishbone Ash

admiralgar wrote:

its a pity there isnt a spur to the huge new devalopements at clarehall/clongriffin and around the hilton at clare hall.
the malahide road wont be able to cope and the proposed new dart station at grange will only add to the already overcrowded dart system.


gar

Especially since Aerdart folded.

MarkoP11

admiralgar wrote:

its a pity there isnt a spur to the huge new devalopements at clarehall/clongriffin and around the hilton at clare hall.
the malahide road wont be able to cope and the proposed new dart station at grange will only add to the already overcrowded dart system.


gar

They are studying such a line heading due east from Metro North branching off more or less where metro west will towards either Howth Junc or the new station at Grange Rd/Baldoyle/Clongiffin/Whatever it is this week

antoinolachtnai

bk wrote:

:rolleyes: Many argue that even under the T21 plan Ireland's expenditure on capital infrastructure for a developing country like Ireland is too low and your trying to say that we should be spending the money on servicing the national debt instead.

No, you are putting words in my mouth. I was at pains to make clear that I was not saying that at all.

Actually Irelands national debt is not significant, it is about 28% of GDP, which is one of the lowest figures in Europe.

It's more than the cost of the project we are discussing, which means it's significant in relation to that at least. 'Low' is not the same as 'not significant'.

Navan Junction

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times, 20/10/2006


The route: The route of Dublin's proposed Metro North line from St Stephen's Green to north of Swords will now take in Drumcondra, the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, announced yesterday.


The 17km metro, about half of which is to run underground, will take passengers from St Stephen's Green to Dublin airport in 17 minutes, arriving at Swords in 26 minutes, or 27 minutes if a possible stop at Parnell Street in the north inner city is included.

The route is broadly similar to that announced by Mr Cullen at the launch of Transport 21 last November. But the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) said it had been amended to serve Drumcondra, where it will interchange with Iarnród Éireann suburban services, following an extended period of public consultation.

The RPA said other amendments included the development of a large-scale station under the Liffey at O'Connell Bridge, with access to the north and south quays and to the Luas Red Line at Abbey Street.

A major interchange with the proposed Irish Rail Heuston to Connolly interconnector is also proposed for St Stephen's Green. It is likely that St Stephen's Green will be closed for a number of years during excavations for the station. The RPA said yesterday the green would be fully reinstated when construction is complete.

Travelling from St Stephen's Green the route runs underground below Grafton Street and under College Green, avoiding what were described as the "sensitive buildings" at Trinity College. It will then travel below O'Connell Street to Parnell Square, the Mater hospital, Drumcondra and Griffith Avenue.

The line will rise to street level at Dublin City University. Final details of an elevated section in the Ballymun area are yet to be worked out.

The line will also serve a "metropark" between the M50 and the airport before going underground again to stop at the airport complex. The remaining stations are Nevinstown, Swords, Seatown and Lissenhall, where significant development is expected in coming years.

As a metro, it will not share its route with any other vehicles; as the trains travel faster than Luas, they will be heavier. Final design details of the trains are yet to be worked out.

The RPA estimates that 34 million passengers a year will use the service, with trains every four minutes in each direction. Speaking yesterday, Frank Allen, the chief executive of the RPA, said the frequency could be increased to a tram every 90 seconds if necessary.

The Metro will not go farther south than St Stephen's Green, although Mr Allen acknowledged it was policy to upgrade the Luas Green line to metro standard. However, he said that was "another project".

Mr Allen said the RPA had considered linking the underground with the Dart line at Connolly but had been persuaded of the need for the line into the centre of the city by business interests in Dublin.

Mr Cullen said yesterday that the formal public consultation period on Metro West - the Metro from Tallaght via Blanchardstown to Ballymun - would begin within weeks.

© The Irish Times