Cullen announces Metro North route

bk

antoinolachtnai you are missing the whole point, the T21 was always planned to be financed out of the normal yearly infrastructure costings. That was why the Dept Of Finance held up the plans for so long as they were arguing with the Dept of Transport over the budgetary amount.

So there is no point in trying to make it look more expensive then it is by trying to add interest costs, when there will be no interest costs.

antoinolachtnai

Just because you aren't taking a loan for a specific project, doesn't mean the interest rate doesn't matter. If nothing else, the interest rate represent interest foregone. If the money hadn't been spent on Metro, the money could have been put on deposit and earned a return.

In the case of Ireland there is a significant debt already. If the money were not spent on Metro, it could be put towards the national debt and so reduce interest payments. So effectively the money is borrowed, even though it hasn't been specifically borrowed for this particular project.

Note: I am not arguing that the government should not borrow money to spend on this project or that the project is bad value for money. There is nothing wrong with borrowing for good projects, if this is a good project. I am just pointing out how things work.

Anyway, the rights and wrongs of presenting costs are immaterial here. The important point is that you can't compare a fully-loaded cost with an unloaded cost.

spacetweek

therecklessone wrote:

Are these maps accurate?

The listed stops seem to include elements of the red and blue lines.

Am I right in thinking the Nevinstown stop is the M1 side of Airside? Why the hell did they choose that instead of nearer the R132 (old N1)?

It is beside the N1. In P11 Marko says that the "line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover" - he means old N1 - there's no such thing as an "old M1".

Victor

News from RPA (not authorised yet).

http://www.rpa.ie/metro/news/press

October 19th 2006 - Metro North Press Release (0.36MB) http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=127

October 19th 2006 - Metro North Chairman's Statement (0.57MB) http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=128

This page would suggest today's announcement was contingent on the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006. I wonder if the president has signed it yet.

http://www.rpa.ie/?id=312

MarkoP11

spacetweek wrote:

It is beside the N1. In P11 Marko says that the "line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover" - he means old N1 - there's no such thing as an "old M1".

Fair cop

From the maps we have seen Airside is where the stop is going, Nevinstown would require a huge deviation and it only works with the Great Southern option at Dublin Airport.

Airside won't be the stop name since its commerical and may change

Victor

Victor wrote:

News from RPA (not authorised yet).

http://www.rpa.ie/metro/news/press

October 19th 2006 - Metro North Press Release (0.36MB) http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=127

October 19th 2006 - Metro North Chairman's Statement (0.57MB) http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=128

Wow, they've pulled these already. :eek:

MarkoP11 wrote:

Airside won't be the stop name since its commerical and may change

Its also confusing. Like "Hospital" (think: how many hospitals are with a 5 minute walk of the Red Line).

Victor

spacetweek wrote:

It is beside the N1. In P11 Marko says that the "line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover" - he means old N1 - there's no such thing as an "old M1".

[finicky]There is at Gormanstown.[/finicky]

Wishbone Ash

spacetweek wrote:

It is beside the N1. In P11 Marko says that the "line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover" - he means old N1 - there's no such thing as an "old M1".

Neither is there an N1 (in this area). It changed to the R132 three years ago.


I see the Bailey Brothers (Bovale Developments/Mahon Tribunal) have been quick off the blocks. A while back, they purchased a farm at Lissenhall (beside the proposed terminus). Nice little park and ride site adjacent to the M1??

Victor

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I see the Bailey Brothers (Bovale Developments/Mahon Tribunal) have been quick off the blocks. A while back, they purchased a farm at Lissenhall (beside the proposed terminus). Nice little park and ride site adjacent to the M1??

I'm sure the procrastination has aided many a developer.

bk

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Just because you aren't taking a loan for a specific project, doesn't mean the interest rate doesn't matter. If nothing else, the interest rate represent interest foregone. If the money hadn't been spent on Metro, the money could have been put on deposit and earned a return.

:rolleyes: Many argue that even under the T21 plan Ireland's expenditure on capital infrastructure for a developing country like Ireland is too low and your trying to say that we should be spending the money on servicing the national debt instead.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

In the case of Ireland there is a significant debt already. If the money were not spent on Metro, it could be put towards the national debt and so reduce interest payments. So effectively the money is borrowed, even though it hasn't been specifically borrowed for this particular project.

Actually Irelands national debt is not significant, it is about 28% of GDP, which is one of the lowest figures in Europe.

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/printer_1000article_10005097.shtml

In these days of cheap credit, Irelands national debt policy is considered very conservative by most.

Because Ireland is a developing country with years of underinvestment in infrastructure, we badly need to spend a lot more on infrastructure, no matter how much it costs.

We badly need the Metro, along with the Interconnector, Luas, Dart projects, etc.

wyndham

The good people at aircoach probably aren't too happy today.;) Taxis will also suffer.

Ball park price for journey airport-stephens green? Anyone like to take shot in the dark?

e5?

e2?

e8?

Wishbone Ash

wyndham wrote:

The good people at aircoach probably aren't too happy today.;) Taxis will also suffer.

Ball park price for journey airport-stephens green? Anyone like to take shot in the dark?

e5?

e2?

e8?

Do you mean by Aircoach, taxi or the Metro? Bear in mind that it will be at least 6 years before it's operating.

weehamster

Metrobest wrote:

It's a brilliant route, the best of all combinations. This is going to be the jewel in the crown of Dublin's transport.

I have to say that this 'Lite' Metro North is a much welcomed addition to Dublin’s Public Transport system, and I really like the RPA being flexible with the route. Especially the revised route intersecting Drumcondra station (dont forget that the Maynooth line will be upgraded to a DART). However this it is not the "jewel in the crown".

That title can only be applied to the Interconnector (current cost is €1.5b, due to the revised plan for a longer tunnel past inchicore), which will have the biggest impact on Dublin by far. But because it is Irish Rails baby, and the Government dont get on well with them (cant say I really blame them), it has been left to the very last.

In regard to the cost of the project, dont forget the whole plan was redesigned and is now a tram hybrid and not a real metro which is what the original proposal was suppose to be. Because of this change the costs are much lower, so you can forget the €4b+ figure which was the 2004 figure for the original metro proposal. The figure of €1.2b is more realistic. However I’m not sure if the costs of the trams are included.

Winters

Between €2.50 and €2.60 single Id day.

Dub13

Winters wrote:

Between €2.50 and €2.60 single Id day.

Which is quicker and cheaper than Aircoach,surely when this opens they will have to change there route.

admiralofthefleet

its a pity there isnt a spur to the huge new devalopements at clarehall/clongriffin and around the hilton at clare hall.
the malahide road wont be able to cope and the proposed new dart station at grange will only add to the already overcrowded dart system.


gar

Wishbone Ash

admiralgar wrote:

its a pity there isnt a spur to the huge new devalopements at clarehall/clongriffin and around the hilton at clare hall.
the malahide road wont be able to cope and the proposed new dart station at grange will only add to the already overcrowded dart system.


gar

Especially since Aerdart folded.

MarkoP11

admiralgar wrote:

its a pity there isnt a spur to the huge new devalopements at clarehall/clongriffin and around the hilton at clare hall.
the malahide road wont be able to cope and the proposed new dart station at grange will only add to the already overcrowded dart system.


gar

They are studying such a line heading due east from Metro North branching off more or less where metro west will towards either Howth Junc or the new station at Grange Rd/Baldoyle/Clongiffin/Whatever it is this week

antoinolachtnai

bk wrote:

:rolleyes: Many argue that even under the T21 plan Ireland's expenditure on capital infrastructure for a developing country like Ireland is too low and your trying to say that we should be spending the money on servicing the national debt instead.

No, you are putting words in my mouth. I was at pains to make clear that I was not saying that at all.

Actually Irelands national debt is not significant, it is about 28% of GDP, which is one of the lowest figures in Europe.

It's more than the cost of the project we are discussing, which means it's significant in relation to that at least. 'Low' is not the same as 'not significant'.

Navan Junction

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times, 20/10/2006


The route: The route of Dublin's proposed Metro North line from St Stephen's Green to north of Swords will now take in Drumcondra, the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, announced yesterday.


The 17km metro, about half of which is to run underground, will take passengers from St Stephen's Green to Dublin airport in 17 minutes, arriving at Swords in 26 minutes, or 27 minutes if a possible stop at Parnell Street in the north inner city is included.

The route is broadly similar to that announced by Mr Cullen at the launch of Transport 21 last November. But the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) said it had been amended to serve Drumcondra, where it will interchange with Iarnród Éireann suburban services, following an extended period of public consultation.

The RPA said other amendments included the development of a large-scale station under the Liffey at O'Connell Bridge, with access to the north and south quays and to the Luas Red Line at Abbey Street.

A major interchange with the proposed Irish Rail Heuston to Connolly interconnector is also proposed for St Stephen's Green. It is likely that St Stephen's Green will be closed for a number of years during excavations for the station. The RPA said yesterday the green would be fully reinstated when construction is complete.

Travelling from St Stephen's Green the route runs underground below Grafton Street and under College Green, avoiding what were described as the "sensitive buildings" at Trinity College. It will then travel below O'Connell Street to Parnell Square, the Mater hospital, Drumcondra and Griffith Avenue.

The line will rise to street level at Dublin City University. Final details of an elevated section in the Ballymun area are yet to be worked out.

The line will also serve a "metropark" between the M50 and the airport before going underground again to stop at the airport complex. The remaining stations are Nevinstown, Swords, Seatown and Lissenhall, where significant development is expected in coming years.

As a metro, it will not share its route with any other vehicles; as the trains travel faster than Luas, they will be heavier. Final design details of the trains are yet to be worked out.

The RPA estimates that 34 million passengers a year will use the service, with trains every four minutes in each direction. Speaking yesterday, Frank Allen, the chief executive of the RPA, said the frequency could be increased to a tram every 90 seconds if necessary.

The Metro will not go farther south than St Stephen's Green, although Mr Allen acknowledged it was policy to upgrade the Luas Green line to metro standard. However, he said that was "another project".

Mr Allen said the RPA had considered linking the underground with the Dart line at Connolly but had been persuaded of the need for the line into the centre of the city by business interests in Dublin.

Mr Cullen said yesterday that the formal public consultation period on Metro West - the Metro from Tallaght via Blanchardstown to Ballymun - would begin within weeks.

© The Irish Times

Navan Junction

Irish times wrote:

As a metro, it will not share its route with any other vehicles; as the trains travel faster than Luas, they will be heavier.

davidhealy

admiralgar wrote:

its a pity there isnt a spur to the huge new devalopements at clarehall/clongriffin and around the hilton at clare hall.
the malahide road wont be able to cope and the proposed new dart station at grange will only add to the already overcrowded dart system.

Fingal County Council in September directed it's Manager to study this route. Most of the route is still fields. A section 49 levy could be put in to fund it from those developments not yet built. Unfortunately the view in Fingal seems to be that they do roads and everything else is someone else's business. (This view didn't apply to promoting the Metro link to Swords; maybe the problem is that this link would be along the boundary between Dublin City and Fingal.)

strassenwolf

I don't get it.

I notice over on the P11 website that they are busy congratulating themselves on the major contribution which they made to the development of the metro route which has been chosen.

Platform 11 had made a submission to the O'Reilly inquiry suggesting that this line should be built through Glasnevin Junction.

That's obviously been ignored.

It will be interesting to see the reaction of that group over the next days and weeks. Originally they were vehemently opposted to the construction of the interconnector, now they're very much for it.

They were then against the construction of a metro to the airport, arguing that IE's plan for the Northern Line would make much more sense (a position with which I very much agree). Now they appear to be very much in favour of the metro.

They then made their submission to the Govt. about Glasnevin Junction, arguing that this was where real integration of metro and heavy rail could take place. Now they appear to be very much in favour of this line going through Drumcondra?

And in between they went from opposing the introduction of the standard international gauge on the LUAS/metro lines to being, apparently, in favour of such a move.

What are we to make of it all?

aliveandkicking

strassenwolf wrote:

I don't get it.

I notice over on the P11 website that they are busy congratulating themselves on the major contribution which they made to the development of the metro route which has been chosen.

http://www.platform11.org/transport21/metro/common_sense_wins.php

Our report contained 9 recommendations, the majority of which have been addressed in the now approved Metro North plans which proves and vindicates the position Platform 11 took in an effort to ensure that future passengers get the best service and experience.


1. Legal measures to allow 24 hour tunneling should be in place before work begins,
Still an open issue however the critical infrastructure bill would cover this, recent news concerting underground land acquisition would suggest that attention is being paid to the cost and time to tunnel

2. The Metro should start at St. Stephen’s Green and terminate at Swords not Dublin Airport
Originally and despite a positive cost benefit Swords was not to be served in order to keep the costs down, Following this Fingal CC applied a section 49 levy to part fund the metro, it is thought that up to 300 million euro will be raised as a result. Some thought was given to placing the terminus in O'Connell Street this thankfully has been abandoned. Common sense has prevailed fully inline with the Platform 11 recommendation

3. A Metro station should be provided at Glasnevin Junction (Phibsborough)
Following detailed discussions with the RPA the engineering view indicated that Drumcondra would be a more feasible location. This offers integration with the Maynooth railway line thus solving the integration problem that existed which had prompted Platform 11 to suggest Glasnevin as a possible integration location. Issue closed to the satisfaction of all concerned.

4. The Metro should be built to the same specification as the DART system
This issue primarily arose out of flexibility and integration. It has since transpired that Luas and Metro will under certain conditions be able to share the same track thus offering similar benefits.

5. Metro stations should be built to accommodate 6 car trains not 3 car as proposed
Trains up to 90m are now provided for roughly double the length of the original proposal, thus this issue is closed with a result fully in line with the Platform 11 viewpoint.

6. The RPA should acknowledge that Metro is not a standalone project and should be designed to maximise integration with other public transport projects
Integration with DART at Maynooth and with Luas Red line on O'Connell Street are now key elements of the project and the need to serve Tara Street is avoided as the Irish Rail interconnector project would make it redundant. Issue closed again with a result fully in line with the Platform 11 viewpoint.

7. The Metro must comply with all current and proposed Irish and EU legislation as well as following best international practice
Assurances have been received from the RPA that the metro will be based on international best practice and will be in line with all requirements. Closed

8. Stations should be built to the highest specification to ensure efficient and safe operation
Many of the issues such as sufficient ticket barriers no longer exist since the RPA intend to have a open station model like many European cities, Porto is a often used example. Issue closed

9. A separate body independent of the RPA should manage the project
Following the mess of the Luas project legitimate concerns where raised by many of the ability of the RPA to handle the Metro project, this was backed by the O'Reilly report in to the Dublin Metro. The Dublin Transport Authority will have control thus the issue is closed and resolved inline with the Platform 11 viewpoint.

Navan Junction

strassenwolf wrote:

I don't get it. I notice over on the P11 website that they are busy congratulating themselves on the major contribution which they made to the development of the metro route which has been chosen.

And fair play to them. The country would be worse off without their contribution.

Hats off to a bunch of people that cared enough to try and make a difference.

Winters

davidhealy wrote:

Fingal County Council in September directed it's Manager to study this route. Most of the route is still fields. A section 49 levy could be put in to fund it from those developments not yet built. Unfortunately the view in Fingal seems to be that they do roads and everything else is someone else's business. (This view didn't apply to promoting the Metro link to Swords; maybe the problem is that this link would be along the boundary between Dublin City and Fingal.)

David, I completely agree with your thinking. I would recommend you bring up the "Dublin North Fringe Transportation Framework Study" with both Eoghan Madden and relevant FCC departments.

strassenwolf

Alive and Kicking, I'll have to take some more time to analyse your post before responding to it.

Navan Junction wrote:

And fair play to them. The country would be worse off without their contribution.

Hats off to a bunch of people that cared enough to try and make a difference.

I fully agree. The country would be much worse off without the people who do the day-to-day work for Platform 11. Fair play to them for giving up their spare time to try and help deliver a better public transport system. Absolutely no quibbles there.

(My previous post was part of an attempt to try and ascertain what the overall P11 position was on the development of the metro route (if it is to be developed) and its context within the development of the city and the Greater Dublin Area. That's all.)

bk

aliveandkicking wrote:

8. Stations should be built to the highest specification to ensure efficient and safe operation
Many of the issues such as sufficient ticket barriers no longer exist since the RPA intend to have a open station model like many European cities, Porto is a often used example. Issue closed

Does this mean that there won't be any barriers, that people will buy/validate tickets on the platform (ala Luas) with random inspections on the trains?

Winters

bk wrote:

Does this mean that there won't be any barriers, that people will buy/validate tickets on the platform (ala Luas) with random inspections on the trains?

Yes, an 'open/honour' system just like Luas with unmanned stops.

Also it could be all smart card with no paper tickets but thats another story.

Metrobest

6. Integration with DART at Maynooth and with Luas Red line on O'Connell Street are now key elements of the project and the need to serve Tara Street is avoided as the Irish Rail interconnector project would make it redundant. Issue closed again with a result fully in line with the Platform 11 viewpoint.

My hope is that an underground travelator will run under Burgh Quay to Tara Street station, connecting DART with metro. Platform 11 please help with that.

I also hope that the station will have an exit close to the front of Trinity College. There is massive potential for retail/commercial development undergound in this location. Imagine it. Footfall would be huge with people entering at College Green to walk to Tara Street or even as far as Abbey Street underground. Newsagents, coffee kiosks, juice bars and even hairdressers would make a fortune under there. Anyone familiar with Sydney's Town Hall station will agree with me here.

Moving on. There is a lot of speculation about costs. I'm putting my card on the table. I would be highly surprised if this metro costs anything less than 2.4bn in construction cost terms.

A lot of misinformation has been floating around about Metro North. Let me explain. The first cost estimate RPA supplied was for 1.7bn. Consultants were brought in, including an expert from Madrid metro, to see if this estimate could be reduced and if there was a positive cost benefit analysis for proceeding the project.

The result was a lower cost estimate of 1.2bn, in line with Madrid - but this referred to a 9-stop metro with shorter stations, fewer stops, and covered St Stephen's Green to the airport only. That estimate assumed stations would be constructed by the cut and cover method, assumed a utilitarian station configuration.

We are getting almost the opposite - a 15 stop metro with 90 metre trains, some stations expensively constucted under ground and the line stretching all the way to Lissenhall. That's wonderful; not cheap.

Unfortunately the media seems bent on ruining the metro project stoking public outcry about its cost. Metros always are expensive and for some reason seem to prove more controversial than other projects. Still, I'm a great believer in spending that little bit extra and having something the stands the test of time, rather than the cheapo solution, such as a busway, which is a false economy. I can't understand why people quibble the cost. If it costs X amount and it delivers value for money, then build it. I mean, you don't walk into a five star hotel and haggle over the price of the presidential suite. Similarly, if you're choosing a five star transport solution, you have to pay a price that reflect this.

The reason Cullen doesn't want to disclose a cost to the media is simple - they will use it as a stick to beat him with afterwards. If he says "we expect it to cost 2bn and it costs 2.4bn after going out to tender there will be a deluge of comment from the buffons in the Irish media saying the government has lost control and Cullen should be fired. He can't win. And here's the thing - even if it does come in under 2bn they're going to say it's "over budget" - comparing it with the 1.2bn estimate. Like a shark in a small pond, the Irish media wields an often-destructive influence on society.

And The Irish Indo I noticed is up to its usual tabloid tricks. Apparantly, "it was learned" that metros cost 80-100M per km in Europe. In Spain, more like, where they literally decide "screw it, this is where the route is going and nobody can object". In Ireland we do things differently, resulting in higher costs as everything takes longer.

They were also saying that the metro has been "rerouted to pass by the Taoiseach's front door", as if Bertie himself had personally intervened so that the value of his house would go up and he could win a few extra votes. That's laughable. How many votes is he going to be winning when his constituents spend at least 36 months ringing him up with complaints of noise, holes in the ground, dust in the air and streets closed to traffic. The public is very fickle when it comes to big projects like these and generally doesn't appreciate the benefits until the project is completed. Eg. luas and soon the Port Tunnel.

Another myth I want to knock on the head is that the interconnector has somehow been sidelined or is "low priority". I have it on good authority that interconnector has the full support of Cabinet; the only reason it won't be built until 2016 is that Irish Rail have asked for more time as it is a more complex project and planning is at a much more embryonic stage.