Why I hate GW - *Rant Warning*

DonalB

"A game is just a game. But when is it not a game? When is religion not religion and transcending the barriers into racial hatred? When is love obsession, etc. etc."

Since you asked:
A game is not a game when it veers away from entertainment into oppression of some kind of some one.
Religion is not a religion when it denies individual conscience and the reality of lives lived in love
(my version of the Bill Hicks explanation, "vibrations in the mind of the one true god, whose name is love", I'm an atheist btw so it's a small "g" and if you think that's specifically religious, come back and talk to me when you understand what he means).
Love is obsession when it eliminates the needs and individuality of the Other and becomes cathexis and possession.

But it's your ball, you make the rules, I'll comply.
<All> my points about GW still stand, both semiotic and about the nature of their various manipulations of their customers.



(BTW, Lemming, I have sent you a PM on a separate subject, when you get a chance.)

Lemming

DonalB wrote: »

A game is not a game when it veers away from entertainment into oppression of some kind of some one.

And have GW games (or anybody elses's for that matter) been oppressing anybody? Or inciting hatred of anyone?

That's kind of where my rhetorical questions were going. People are responsible for their own interpretations and actions on something clearly not intended for such meaning.

(BTW, Lemming, I have sent you a PM on a separate subject, when you get a chance.)

It's already been dealt with. I just forgot to send you a reply, sorry about that.

elbrop

Warmaster wrote: »

I was just about to say this, I'm an ex staffer too and we were also told that if it says it on the box that's the way it is.

well said btw ACW I worked my ass off when I worked for them, it's quite disheartening to see a lot of complaints here.

I think part of the problem is that the Irish tend not to like being approached in shops. We are a quite reserved bunch and find it off putting and a bit pushy. The level of comradery that may work in other countries often leaves the Irish uncomfortable (and a bit shell shocked when they visit America, the land of loud boisterous friendly people).

A simple “Can I help you” is enough, if we just want to browse then please let us be. If you then come up and ask again it will seem rude, as if you're saying we're taking too much time just looking at stuff, so unless you want us to leave then don't.

I'm not saying GW staff are being pushy or rude, just how it can be taken, and why perhaps people here have problems with entering the stores.

elbrop

DonalB wrote: »

“Ah, but it's just a gaaaaaaaaaameeeee” I hear you wail, as you fade into the distance.

Only on the surface could you say warhammer 40k paints anything but the darkest view of fascism. The Imperium is horrible and every game version (and the books, comics an so on) makes it clear that everything that is good and uplifting in humanity is being crushed by it. At best you could say the message is that fascism is better than being eaten by aliens. Just.

oniondublin

on the fascism side of things: i think it kinda makes the marines more interesting (as long as it's overt). better than a black and white goodies/baddies split. i like my shades of grey. if they push the marines too much as knights in shining armour while retaining that sort of undercurrent then that's a bit more dodgy.

(lemming, i know i'm new to this site, let alone forum, so if that post isn't ok just send me a private message and i'll edit)

on the GW sales techniques: i first got into things about 12 years ago(age 11ish). was a necromunda player. used to also buy the occasional model that i thought was cool, regardless of system (a lot of 40k ork boar boys for some reason?). then got into gorkamorka. had vague thoughts of starting a 40k ork army but drifted away from the hobby before that happened. i remember finding the staff v friendly then but, since i only played skirmish games, i was never conned out of too much cash.

have sort-of returned to the hobby recently and can now see the american sales techniques used (don't know were they used back then). it's just like any clothes shops in the states. way too pushy. maybe that's how yanks like it, but irish people tend to be scared off by it. i've frequently left shops because the sales pressure makes me feel uncomfortable just browsing.

there's a line between creating a nice, friendly "hobby centre" feel to a shop and just being pushy.

example one: went into GW liffey street to pick up an order, including the new animosity orcs (what a model). it was early in the morning, shop was quiet and the staff, while checking my order came through properly, passed the box around, said "wow, what a cool model" had a bit of a chat about it and i left satisfied. note that i had already paid for this online so this was just genuine interest in the hobby.

example two: went in to buy a paint or two, checked out the stompa model in the display case, remarked to the sales guy that it was cool but i don't really like the over-huge models as it is miniature gaming. guy just blanked my slight criticism and then enthused about how amazing it is and how he was planning to field "ten" of them. at irish prices, that €900. €900! clearly a lie and a very crude attempt to encourage me a think that buying more than one of these yokes would be acceptable. result: fail.

Phototoxin

wow this thread really gives me flashbacks.

i started when i was 11 battle for macragge had just came out

LoL ! you're a youngblood... unless you have used vortex grenades to take out the avatar of khaine then you aren't old enough to have flashbacks ! [kidding BTW!]

In my experience, GW staff are nice enough. I think I've said as much, somewhere, maybe here. I mean, a staffer in Belfast told me a good place to get a good breakfast fry when I was after going up on the bus, on an empty stomache. They do try to sell you stuff, but that's their job, you can't begrudge them that.

+1 with my experience of a few shops in mainland UK (and Esp nottingham HQ... cool place) however I still make exception for dublin as some guys there scare me. Maybe its just me?

And have GW games (or anybody elses's for that matter) been oppressing anybody? Or inciting hatred of anyone?

Catholicsm? - Basically if you play imperial you are supprorting an indoctrinating totalitarian pseudo religous society that wants to take over the world .... and the catholic church. :pac: The SoB are(hot) nuns with guns afterall...

My mum still thinks the concept of 'chaplain on bike' is humourous as she knew priest who only rode a bicycle and was chaplain to a school. I dont think his rosary beads stopped lascannons 50% of the time or that he wore power armour however...

That aside, there is another important problem with GW I meant to mention that I forgot to add.
Fascism. The evolution of WK40k contains an overt and explicit fascist stance. I hesitate to say message, as I doubt the designers sat down and said “let's portray a National Socialist future” but that doesn't excuse the end result.

What is does display at the very least is an ignorance of semiotics. We are all responsible for the hidden as well as the overt messages of our words. 40K is a progression from Judge Dredd, who's writers early on acknowledged his fascism, indeed that was the point (Alan Moore as I recall from mid 80s) and possibly sprang from the same wellspring, though JD wasn't intended to glorify fascism.
An aspirational future where pure Aryan genetically pure warriors defend the home world, using and allying where necessary with miscegenated lesser species?

OK a bit scary.. its a game of toy soldiers and is hyper exaggurated. I mean if you actually think the imperium = catholicsm or nazism or both. (lets hook benedict up to life support and geneitcally enhance the Irish rangers with his DNA 8-) )

Also the other 'lesser' speices are also sometimes ideoligally and technolically superior. So maybe it shows that its not always good. As mentioned it might show how scared people are and be a warning about totalitarian control ? Anyway who wants to play toy soldiers?

TheLastBaron

Okay, back to the real problem with GW... The prices.

I used to be big into GW a few years ago, and recently picked up my little brother's latest issue of White Dwarf. From this, I priced a small Chaos Warhammer Fantasy army: Khorne Chaos Champion, regiment of Chaos Warriors, regiment of Chaos Marauders, and a group of three Chaos Trolls. Using this, I devised a list of all the paints, modelling equipment, etc. that GW recommended. The final price came to about €600 or so... That's absolutely disgraceful... :mad:

GW is gonna run itself into the ground with these ridiculous prices. All it'll take is for one rival company to gather some steam with similiar games and models. Then they'll be f*cked.

Saying this, I'm still tempted to collect again... I feel like a GW ex-junkie having a relapse...

Concerning the apparent fascist look and ideology of the Space Marines... Aren't the Eldar far superior to the Space Marines in magic? I'm not a 40K gamer, so I could be wrong... In Warhammer Fantasy, the Empire is constantly being pillaged by Chaos and the Orcs, and I presume that the Empire and the Imperium are somehow related?

Spear

TheLastBaron wrote: »

I presume that the Empire and the Imperium are somehow related?

The empire in fantasy is more Holy Roman Empire, the Imperium is more Third Reich meets US evangelists.

TheLastBaron

Suppose so...

The Empire has always seemed very German to me: Karl Franz, Kurt Helborg, etc.

Spear

TheLastBaron wrote: »

Suppose so...

The Empire has always seemed very German to me: Karl Franz, Kurt Helborg, etc.

The Holy Roman Empire was German.

Ayrtonf7

Phototoxin wrote: »

LoL ! you're a youngblood... unless you have used vortex grenades to take out the avatar of khaine then you aren't old enough to have flashbacks ! [kidding BTW!]

lol, Macrage is like, 3 years old maybe ? =P

And vortext grenades are back =D And even more stupid than ever...

Spear wrote: »

The Holy Roman Empire was German.

Not all of it =S
I wouldve assumed it was Italien
But thats completly OT

I guess the Empire and The Imperium do have alot in commen.

TheLastBaron

Yeah, Holy ROMAN Empire... Germany was part of it, yeah, but surely Rome was at its heart?

I wonder if the GW design team try to keep some continuity between the Empire and the Imperium... The other races are all very much related to their futuristic counterparts.

Spear

TheLastBaron wrote: »

Yeah, Holy ROMAN Empire... Germany was part of it, yeah, but surely Rome was at its heart?

No, Rome was never part of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_roman_empire

I wonder if the GW design team try to keep some continuity between the Empire and the Imperium... The other races are all very much related to their futuristic counterparts.

Fantasy and 40k are separate universes and continuities, albeit with common themes.

elbrop

TheLastBaron wrote: »

I wonder if the GW design team try to keep some continuity between the Empire and the Imperium... The other races are all very much related to their futuristic counterparts.

They used to playfully hint a a connection (beyond common names and themes) but more recently they firmly put it to rest by categorically stating the two game lines are completely separate settings.

I havn't played fantasy for a loooong time but it always seemed a bit odd that they didn't have any Romanic type army. Seems a bit of a missed chance, massed legions would be very nifty and the roman legionary style armour and weapons would look very different from the Germanic style of the Empire and the King Arthur/French style of the other human army (can't recall it's name).

Spear

elbrop wrote: »

I havn't played fantasy for a loooong time but it always seemed a bit odd that they didn't have any Romanic type army. Seems a bit of a missed chance, massed legions would be very nifty and the roman legionary style armour and weapons would look very different from the Germanic style of the Empire and the King Arthur/French style of the other human army (can't recall it's name).

The Romans have their place in Warhammer spinoffs such as Warhammer Ancient Battles.

TheLastBaron

Some old Warhammer Dogs of War figures resembled Roman soldiers...

VonLuck

I recently have gotten back into 40k and popped into GW to check out the new IG models. I see they only sell cadians in squads of 10 now and it costs €20. Didn't they use to sell 20 cadians for €30? Scam if I ever saw one.

Cy_Revenant

VonLuck wrote: »

I recently have gotten back into 40k and popped into GW to check out the new IG models. I see they only sell cadians in squads of 10 now and it costs €20. Didn't they use to sell 20 cadians for €30? Scam if I ever saw one.

Of course they did, but this is GW, whos surprised? I've never been able to see how the can justify €30 for a single Battlesuit.

I'm sure this does make some kind of limited sense from their point of view.
"Oh, my platoon needs another squadron of Guardsmen, oh look, there's exactly ten in this box. How convenient."

Nodin

elbrop wrote: »

They used to playfully hint a a connection (beyond common names and themes) but more recently they firmly put it to rest by categorically stating the two game lines are completely separate settings.

I havn't played fantasy for a loooong time but it always seemed a bit odd that they didn't have any Romanic type army. Seems a bit of a missed chance, massed legions would be very nifty and the roman legionary style armour and weapons would look very different from the Germanic style of the Empire and the King Arthur/French style of the other human army (can't recall it's name).

It's a different period than the one they prefer to loot for inspiration. Chucking them in FB would create (apart from thematic and background problems) balancing issues. You could maybe fit the later period Byzantines or some version thereof in there, but classical Roman armies nay.

Kold

I have to say, one of my favourite things about the GW has always been the storylines and backgrounds to the armies in 40k. I saw how the Space Marines were basically nazi supermen. I never saw them as the good guys. Better than a lot of the other races I guess but yes, facist bastards. But that's what I found cool. There are no good guys, the IG have their bastard comissars putting bullets in the heads of deserters. But I thought that was a clever side to things, an absolute good would be sh*t. How could you even imagine one in a war filled universe like the 40k one?

I don't see how it could be used against the game tbh. The overbearing staff and ridiculous prices are what drove me away.

BoB_BoT

I'm actually relatively new to 40k with regards to gaming and miniatures. I actually got into the game from the novels and the pc games, but have had nothing but good experience so far in the local GW. Went to the shop at its opening, Found the guy running the shop no way pushy he was friendly, but not creepy friendly.

Had a look around and decided I was going to build a space marine army. Forget exactly what I was going to buy, but it was the biggest space marine box, he advised me against it as it was my first set, then let me know I also wouldn't get any rule books with the large box. Recommended the Battle for Macragge set as a starter, saying at least I could play the game out with a friend to see if I liked it before spending massive money. Which was sound of him, he could have sold me the more expensive box.

While I won't defend GW prices as they are pretty expensive, especially when it's aimed at kids, I have gotten hours of occupation out of what I've bought. I certainly wouldn't stand there and have staff push stuff on me, but that's the same in any shop.

The only real thing that has pissed me off is that the codex has changed already, I've only had the current one a while, same with the rules. While yes it does "streamline" armies it means forking out more money for "revisions".

As for some shops making up rules for beginners, I've nothing against that, but should be only used for groups comprising of solely beginners, after one or two games using made up rules it's about time to move on and learn the actual rules in full, which I'm doing :P

Also Kold, on your point about the storylines, that's what drew me to the game, blood, gore, conviction, demons and a bloody history. Do I care if they seem like they're taken off from Nazis and the Romans? nah

Jazzy

BoB_BoT wrote: »

I'm actually relatively new to 40k with regards to gaming and miniatures. I actually got into the game from the novels and the pc games, but have had nothing but good experience so far in the local GW. Went to the shop at its opening, Found the guy running the shop no way pushy he was friendly, but not creepy friendly.

tbh, its one of those things that will wear on ya. like quit, go back in 6 months or so and ull be like "wtf?".
to me the staff i used to know and play with were always sound.. it was only later when i tried to come back that i lost complete faith in them...
well that and the ridiculous prices. mainly the prices actually. its criminal

Nodin

Kold wrote: »

I have to say, one of my favourite things about the GW has always been the storylines and backgrounds to the armies in 40k. I saw how the Space Marines were basically nazi supermen. I never saw them as the good guys. Better than a lot of the other races I guess but yes, facist bastards. But that's what I found cool. There are no good guys, the IG have their bastard comissars putting bullets in the heads of deserters. But I thought that was a clever side to things, an absolute good would be sh*t. How could you even imagine one in a war filled universe like the 40k one?

I don't see how it could be used against the game tbh. The overbearing staff and ridiculous prices are what drove me away.

It's background is it's endearing feature. I've sworn off them for stupid editions of rules and so on over the years (twenty plus), but I've always crawled back eventually.

I have to admit some of the books I enjoy immensely as well. There's often a healthy cynicism running through them...'mud and blood'..poor sods caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, a lot of the time.

I've heard a lot of remarks about the over-enthusiasm of the staff in the last few years in certain shops....They don't seem to back off when its pointed out to them that yes, you do know what its all about etc.

Overheal

Things Citadel did that I particularly disliked were; the aforementioned scale creep,as it seemed a cynical way of deliberately making entire mini collections redundant as Warhammer & 40K went through their early 2nd & 3rd edition updates

This. This is why I stopped playing. But not scale - that didnt change at all since i first started, after 3rd edition launch. But the constant shuffling of army rules. After blowing hundreds of Euro I finally had the Army I wanted, I had the list I wanted. Its a beautifully crafted, Well Balanced, 3rd edition list, and I still have a copy of that list enshrined in the back of one of my notebooks here it won me that many battles. For 2 years I played with the same, never modified list.

Then the 4th Edition Codex for Eldar came out, and made my army utterly and entirely illegal. My troop choices were blown well out of the water iirc, and the Wraithlord pair I used was now effectively impossible to field without other sacrifices. It really disappointed me, and I did not feel like trying to find another good list, nor did I really look forward to the prospect of buying more models. And of course I was in college and could find no competitors anyway, so it was easy to resign the collection to its carrying case and shoe boxes.

3 years later the rules are now in what, their 5th, 6th edition and theres like, rule sets on top of rule sets, and that new Apocalypse expansion... I don't even wanna think about it. That 4th Edition Codex I bought is due for expiration next year I wager. Why the hell would I want to get back into this game?

Cy_Revenant

Overheal wrote: »

That 4th Edition Codex I bought is due for expiration next year I wager.

Give it at least three years, a fair few other armies need updating before Eldar are up for renewal.

Personally, I like the ever changing, ever evolving rulesets and codices. Even if they do suffer from serious power creep. Gives the impression of an ever changing army.

Granted the transition from second to third ed was a bit crazy, but since then its been more gradual. Fifth ed may have changed the rules from fourth, but I don't feel it dramatically restructured the game.

As for selling minis, well, you can hardly fault a company for trying to make money in their chosen business. There are a lot of people out there who play for the painting and modelling aspect, and love to see a nice, well crafted new miniature get released. And while third ed may have ****canned a bunch of peoples older models, those are all legal to play again now since Apocolypse.

[/ignorantramble]

Mantel

Cy_Revenant wrote: »

Give it at least three years, a fair few other armies need updating before Eldar are up for renewal.

Indeed, the Dark Eldar and Necrons have really gotten the shaft in terms of updates. At least the Necon one was announced as "It's being worked on"

funky penguin

Necrons were grand until that inititive rule with falling back etc..... Now I see 180 pts getting wiped out with one bad dice throw with no We'll be back.

Grrr.....

Jazzy

are chaos still unfair? they get updated every so often when they arent unfair enough.

funky penguin

ARgH! I Was so pissed of with the complete vanillaization of the new Chaos Marines Codex with regards to greater daemons. What a feckin copout.

Cunning Alias

Wow. 3 years and this thread is still going. I c things are still the same. Gonna be in town next tuesday so il drop into this Models Inc place.