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Why I hate GW - *Rant Warning*

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭Ayrtonf7


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    LoL ! you're a youngblood... unless you have used vortex grenades to take out the avatar of khaine then you aren't old enough to have flashbacks ! [kidding BTW!]

    lol, Macrage is like, 3 years old maybe ? =P

    And vortext grenades are back =D And even more stupid than ever...
    Spear wrote: »
    The Holy Roman Empire was German.

    Not all of it =S
    I wouldve assumed it was Italien
    But thats completly OT

    I guess the Empire and The Imperium do have alot in commen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27 TheLastBaron


    Yeah, Holy ROMAN Empire... Germany was part of it, yeah, but surely Rome was at its heart?

    I wonder if the GW design team try to keep some continuity between the Empire and the Imperium... The other races are all very much related to their futuristic counterparts.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 25,645 CMod ✭✭✭✭Spear


    Yeah, Holy ROMAN Empire... Germany was part of it, yeah, but surely Rome was at its heart?

    No, Rome was never part of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_roman_empire
    I wonder if the GW design team try to keep some continuity between the Empire and the Imperium... The other races are all very much related to their futuristic counterparts.

    Fantasy and 40k are separate universes and continuities, albeit with common themes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 elbrop


    I wonder if the GW design team try to keep some continuity between the Empire and the Imperium... The other races are all very much related to their futuristic counterparts.

    They used to playfully hint a a connection (beyond common names and themes) but more recently they firmly put it to rest by categorically stating the two game lines are completely separate settings.

    I havn't played fantasy for a loooong time but it always seemed a bit odd that they didn't have any Romanic type army. Seems a bit of a missed chance, massed legions would be very nifty and the roman legionary style armour and weapons would look very different from the Germanic style of the Empire and the King Arthur/French style of the other human army (can't recall it's name).


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 25,645 CMod ✭✭✭✭Spear


    elbrop wrote: »

    I havn't played fantasy for a loooong time but it always seemed a bit odd that they didn't have any Romanic type army. Seems a bit of a missed chance, massed legions would be very nifty and the roman legionary style armour and weapons would look very different from the Germanic style of the Empire and the King Arthur/French style of the other human army (can't recall it's name).

    The Romans have their place in Warhammer spinoffs such as Warhammer Ancient Battles.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27 TheLastBaron


    Some old Warhammer Dogs of War figures resembled Roman soldiers...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    I recently have gotten back into 40k and popped into GW to check out the new IG models. I see they only sell cadians in squads of 10 now and it costs €20. Didn't they use to sell 20 cadians for €30? Scam if I ever saw one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 773 ✭✭✭Cy_Revenant


    VonLuck wrote: »
    I recently have gotten back into 40k and popped into GW to check out the new IG models. I see they only sell cadians in squads of 10 now and it costs €20. Didn't they use to sell 20 cadians for €30? Scam if I ever saw one.
    Of course they did, but this is GW, whos surprised? I've never been able to see how the can justify €30 for a single Battlesuit.

    I'm sure this does make some kind of limited sense from their point of view.
    "Oh, my platoon needs another squadron of Guardsmen, oh look, there's exactly ten in this box. How convenient."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    elbrop wrote: »
    They used to playfully hint a a connection (beyond common names and themes) but more recently they firmly put it to rest by categorically stating the two game lines are completely separate settings.

    I havn't played fantasy for a loooong time but it always seemed a bit odd that they didn't have any Romanic type army. Seems a bit of a missed chance, massed legions would be very nifty and the roman legionary style armour and weapons would look very different from the Germanic style of the Empire and the King Arthur/French style of the other human army (can't recall it's name).

    It's a different period than the one they prefer to loot for inspiration. Chucking them in FB would create (apart from thematic and background problems) balancing issues. You could maybe fit the later period Byzantines or some version thereof in there, but classical Roman armies nay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,778 ✭✭✭✭Kold


    I have to say, one of my favourite things about the GW has always been the storylines and backgrounds to the armies in 40k. I saw how the Space Marines were basically nazi supermen. I never saw them as the good guys. Better than a lot of the other races I guess but yes, facist bastards. But that's what I found cool. There are no good guys, the IG have their bastard comissars putting bullets in the heads of deserters. But I thought that was a clever side to things, an absolute good would be sh*t. How could you even imagine one in a war filled universe like the 40k one?

    I don't see how it could be used against the game tbh. The overbearing staff and ridiculous prices are what drove me away.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭BoB_BoT


    I'm actually relatively new to 40k with regards to gaming and miniatures. I actually got into the game from the novels and the pc games, but have had nothing but good experience so far in the local GW. Went to the shop at its opening, Found the guy running the shop no way pushy he was friendly, but not creepy friendly.

    Had a look around and decided I was going to build a space marine army. Forget exactly what I was going to buy, but it was the biggest space marine box, he advised me against it as it was my first set, then let me know I also wouldn't get any rule books with the large box. Recommended the Battle for Macragge set as a starter, saying at least I could play the game out with a friend to see if I liked it before spending massive money. Which was sound of him, he could have sold me the more expensive box.

    While I won't defend GW prices as they are pretty expensive, especially when it's aimed at kids, I have gotten hours of occupation out of what I've bought. I certainly wouldn't stand there and have staff push stuff on me, but that's the same in any shop.

    The only real thing that has pissed me off is that the codex has changed already, I've only had the current one a while, same with the rules. While yes it does "streamline" armies it means forking out more money for "revisions".

    As for some shops making up rules for beginners, I've nothing against that, but should be only used for groups comprising of solely beginners, after one or two games using made up rules it's about time to move on and learn the actual rules in full, which I'm doing :P

    Also Kold, on your point about the storylines, that's what drew me to the game, blood, gore, conviction, demons and a bloody history. Do I care if they seem like they're taken off from Nazis and the Romans? nah


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭Jazzy


    BoB_BoT wrote: »
    I'm actually relatively new to 40k with regards to gaming and miniatures. I actually got into the game from the novels and the pc games, but have had nothing but good experience so far in the local GW. Went to the shop at its opening, Found the guy running the shop no way pushy he was friendly, but not creepy friendly.

    tbh, its one of those things that will wear on ya. like quit, go back in 6 months or so and ull be like "wtf?".
    to me the staff i used to know and play with were always sound.. it was only later when i tried to come back that i lost complete faith in them...
    well that and the ridiculous prices. mainly the prices actually. its criminal


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Kold wrote: »
    I have to say, one of my favourite things about the GW has always been the storylines and backgrounds to the armies in 40k. I saw how the Space Marines were basically nazi supermen. I never saw them as the good guys. Better than a lot of the other races I guess but yes, facist bastards. But that's what I found cool. There are no good guys, the IG have their bastard comissars putting bullets in the heads of deserters. But I thought that was a clever side to things, an absolute good would be sh*t. How could you even imagine one in a war filled universe like the 40k one?

    I don't see how it could be used against the game tbh. The overbearing staff and ridiculous prices are what drove me away.

    It's background is it's endearing feature. I've sworn off them for stupid editions of rules and so on over the years (twenty plus), but I've always crawled back eventually.

    I have to admit some of the books I enjoy immensely as well. There's often a healthy cynicism running through them...'mud and blood'..poor sods caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, a lot of the time.

    I've heard a lot of remarks about the over-enthusiasm of the staff in the last few years in certain shops....They don't seem to back off when its pointed out to them that yes, you do know what its all about etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,326 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Things Citadel did that I particularly disliked were; the aforementioned scale creep,as it seemed a cynical way of deliberately making entire mini collections redundant as Warhammer & 40K went through their early 2nd & 3rd edition updates

    This. This is why I stopped playing. But not scale - that didnt change at all since i first started, after 3rd edition launch. But the constant shuffling of army rules. After blowing hundreds of Euro I finally had the Army I wanted, I had the list I wanted. Its a beautifully crafted, Well Balanced, 3rd edition list, and I still have a copy of that list enshrined in the back of one of my notebooks here it won me that many battles. For 2 years I played with the same, never modified list.

    Then the 4th Edition Codex for Eldar came out, and made my army utterly and entirely illegal. My troop choices were blown well out of the water iirc, and the Wraithlord pair I used was now effectively impossible to field without other sacrifices. It really disappointed me, and I did not feel like trying to find another good list, nor did I really look forward to the prospect of buying more models. And of course I was in college and could find no competitors anyway, so it was easy to resign the collection to its carrying case and shoe boxes.

    3 years later the rules are now in what, their 5th, 6th edition :confused: and theres like, rule sets on top of rule sets, and that new Apocalypse expansion... I don't even wanna think about it. That 4th Edition Codex I bought is due for expiration next year I wager. Why the hell would I want to get back into this game?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 773 ✭✭✭Cy_Revenant


    Overheal wrote: »
    That 4th Edition Codex I bought is due for expiration next year I wager.

    Give it at least three years, a fair few other armies need updating before Eldar are up for renewal.

    Personally, I like the ever changing, ever evolving rulesets and codices. Even if they do suffer from serious power creep. Gives the impression of an ever changing army.

    Granted the transition from second to third ed was a bit crazy, but since then its been more gradual. Fifth ed may have changed the rules from fourth, but I don't feel it dramatically restructured the game.

    As for selling minis, well, you can hardly fault a company for trying to make money in their chosen business. There are a lot of people out there who play for the painting and modelling aspect, and love to see a nice, well crafted new miniature get released. And while third ed may have ****canned a bunch of peoples older models, those are all legal to play again now since Apocolypse.

    [/ignorantramble]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Mantel


    Give it at least three years, a fair few other armies need updating before Eldar are up for renewal.

    Indeed, the Dark Eldar and Necrons have really gotten the shaft in terms of updates. At least the Necon one was announced as "It's being worked on"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    Necrons were grand until that inititive rule with falling back etc..... Now I see 180 pts getting wiped out with one bad dice throw with no We'll be back.

    Grrr.....


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭Jazzy


    are chaos still unfair? they get updated every so often when they arent unfair enough.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    ARgH! I Was so pissed of with the complete vanillaization of the new Chaos Marines Codex with regards to greater daemons. What a feckin copout.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Cunning Alias


    Wow. 3 years and this thread is still going. I c things are still the same. Gonna be in town next tuesday so il drop into this Models Inc place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jazzy wrote: »
    are chaos still unfair? they get updated every so often when they arent unfair enough.

    Yet when you turn one of them into slag with your melta wielding Imperial guardsman, surrounded by his flash-light armed buddies, tis a buzz like no other......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭Ayrtonf7


    ARgH! I Was so pissed of with the complete vanillaization of the new Chaos Marines Codex with regards to greater daemons. What a feckin copout.

    chaos greater daemons were just broken, At least in the old edd they were.

    300pts or less (I dont play chaos) and they could pretty much destroy armys.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    And its their job to fix them, not completely take away any character they had.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭Ayrtonf7


    They still hae tonnes of character, There still strong,tough..etc. Besides there changing 40k so that characters do alot less dmg then what they used to be able to do. at least thats what ive noticed with all the new 5th ed codexes


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    *shrugs* If thats your opinion, I can't argue. I just wish a Chaos Marine army could field a bloodthirster, not a generic Greater Daemon.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 slummingangel


    "
    My biggest problem with GW is the staff. They are fine if you are 13 but not if your in your late teens or any older. I refuse to go near the place due to my last experience there.
    I was 18 and it was just after the LOTR game was released. I hadn’t played any GW game in years but I wanted to get one of the Art books. I went in, knew what I wanted, saw it on the shelf at the back but before I could get there a staff member greets me at the door with "Hi. Would you like to try the new LOTR game". I explain that im not interested and that I Just want the Art Book. He follows me to the back of the store quizzing me about the book I want. He takes it off the shelf before I can get it myself and starts looking through it and giving me his opinions on each of the drawings! After about 30 secs of this, iv had enough of his abundant lack of social skills, grab my own copy and head to the register. As im getting my change back the guy behind the register asks "Would you like to try the new LOTR game?"..... he was 3 feet away when I said I wasn’t interested the first time!!!/QUOTE]

    my problem exactly a "no no just browsing" simply suffices. you might try the headphones in ears tactic i use on chuggers (i don't own a mp3) don't know how succesfull this is in GW

    was in on monday killing time just browsing and was surprised at the prices they hadn't seemed to change but i read a post here on reduced amount of models in it. When i met up with my brother later on yesterday i decide t bring him in to show him the new stuff. one of the staff got talking to us and asked us why we stopped we said in unison "time and money" it knocked him for six

    P.S those ork stompa's are E95 a pop so that would a 950 squig on 10 of them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,326 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    *shrugs* If thats your opinion, I can't argue. I just wish a Chaos Marine army could field a bloodthirster, not a generic Greater Daemon.
    Wait, what happened?

    I feel the GDs were overpowered sure but youre right, they at least brought some class to an army.

    Whats happened to bluddykins?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    I'll check the codex again tomorrow, but there are now no individual greater daemons, just one generic fecker. They saved the individuals for the Chaos Daemons army. Grumble....mutter.......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭breadandjam


    GW staff sales technique is a bit of a culture shock when you go into GW shop first, since in no other hobby shop does anyone pretend to notice you've even entered, and you do come across some loopers among the staff but when they get used to you they don't come on so strong.
    I use a retalitory technique I learned on some course I had to go on where the facilitator was telling us how to deal with salesmen. "If you're not saying NO you're saying yes" In other words make it clear at the start that you're just looking. Never answer their first question with a "well.." or "Maybe..." or even "Not Really..." Say "NO, I'm not interested in that, I want..." If necessary hold up your hand in a stop gesture. You may have to repeat this once. Actually you're doing them a favour by making it clear they wasting their time trying to sell you something and they can go bother someone else. It helps if you look as cranky as me though :mad:

    I wonder do GW HQ send in secret shoppers to check if the staff are enthusiastically trying to sell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,984 ✭✭✭Venom


    As a buyer of the novels rather than the tabletop stuff I avoid GW in Liffey due to the staff constantly wasting my time trying to sell me crap. Last time I went in was when the Nagash the Sorcerer book came out and the guy at the counter running off in the middle of ringing up the sale to grab a box of undead something or other. Even after telling him Id no interest in the tabletop games he rushed off to find some 40K stuff I might be into :eek:

    I walked out at that point and got said book in Waterstones.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    Was it cheaper?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭breadandjam


    Was it cheaper?

    Speaking of cheaper I was in Blanch looking for Ork DeffKoptas and the only ones available were in the [FONT=&quot]Assault on Black Reach box set which the friendly assistant recommended I buy for €60 and then sell all the stuff, I didn't want in it, on Ebay because "loads of people do that" His face fell when I said I'd pass on buying the set but would look on ebay for anyone unloading the Defkoptas from their black Reach set :D which I did and got them for a tenner.[/FONT]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,984 ✭✭✭Venom


    Was it cheaper?

    Think is was the same price.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16 oniondublin


    I was in Blanch looking for Ork DeffKoptas and the only ones available were in the [font=&quot]Assault on Black Reach box set .[/font]

    i presume they'll be bringing these out in their own plastic set some time in the near future. something like the warbikes. although is anyone else not crazy about the black reach deffkopta minis? i just think they're a little unnecessary, warbikes are far orkier.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    I'm a bit surprised about all the references to the Imperium's fascism. I thought this was the whole point.

    I never found Warhammer to glorify how crappy life was; they seemed to highlight this as an extremely miserable existance.

    The Imperium is terrible, I havn;t seen the new rulebook (only one I read had the Black Templars on the cover and the box set came with Dark Eldar) but it was filled with psykers being sacrificed to the Emperor, the Inquisition destroying entire worlds, torture/genocide and collateral damage being accepted (I vividly remmber a quote saying something along the lines of "It is better for 1000 innocents to die than for one heretic to get away")

    Empire isn't much better, the books and novels are filled with an empire that is rich but with citizens living in abject poverty and cultists and mutants undermining the empire. The high elves are decadent, the Dwarves too vengeful and stuck in the past, wood elves are annoyingly insular etc etc. Even the Bretonnians have moved away from King Arthur and become much darker with inbred brutish peasants and feudal arrogant knights.

    I love the shades of grey aspect, it makes the games far more realistic and fun to play than bright happy RPGs filled with green forests and happy villagers. The message seemed to be of how sh!t life was with millions of people dying to stabilise a precarious regime, albeit the alternative of Chaos was much worse.


    I've had great experinces with Warhammer, it was incredibly expensive as a kid but I got into it through friends and had many happy hours painting and gaming (although I look back on my early attempts and absolutelyt cringe; the ancient dwarf models absolutely caked in thick paint)
    My favourite thing about it was the fluff; army books, novels etc. I'd even buy army books just to read the background material.
    THe new models look jaw droppingly amazing but I'm disappointed by the costs; 17.50 for 10 empire soldiers when you could've previously gotten 20 for €25. Ditto for Imperial Guard; 10 Cadians is shockingly poor value. THat said, I was always far more into the modelling and painting and displaying the army than fielding it, although the new models are always so awesome looking you badly want them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Its the fluff that will draw you back time after time. Theres a grim joy to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 248 ✭✭mr_kyle


    I can only speak with regard to the Belfast staff, but I have found the staff of the Belfast store now at least to be great. I started up the hobby again just before the new Black Reach set, at that time the new washes were set for release.

    The staff member in question here is a guy called Andy. He asked me if I was interested in getting some, I was like, "well what do they do?". He told me there were a number of ways to use them, but that he would just show me. The demo he gave was really good as he showed how you could bring flat colour to life with the washes. I ended up buying them, but my point is that I didnt feel that he was trying to ram them down my throat. Since then he has offered me conversion advice and asks how my army is going when I'm in.

    Rob, the manager of the Belfast store, is also a sound guy. He has given me advice on painting several times, one of which was telling me not to buy one of the brushes I brought to the counter. Rob is also keen on seeing the gaming community in Belfast grow. I can attest to this as he helped out at Q-Con. That obviously helps the shop out, but it also helps gamers meet other gamers.

    I suppose the staff will be different no matter where you go and it will come down to the approach of the individuals selling technique. Obviously the staff in Belfast are looking to meet target like any other store. But I have yet to see them be bastards or unpleasant to customers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 134 ✭✭Warmaster


    mr_kyle wrote: »
    I can only speak with regard to the Belfast staff, but I have found the staff of the Belfast store now at least to be great. I started up the hobby again just before the new Black Reach set, at that time the new washes were set for release.

    The staff member in question here is a guy called Andy. He asked me if I was interested in getting some, I was like, "well what do they do?". He told me there were a number of ways to use them, but that he would just show me. The demo he gave was really good as he showed how you could bring flat colour to life with the washes. I ended up buying them, but my point is that I didnt feel that he was trying to ram them down my throat. Since then he has offered me conversion advice and asks how my army is going when I'm in.

    Rob, the manager of the Belfast store, is also a sound guy. He has given me advice on painting several times, one of which was telling me not to buy one of the brushes I brought to the counter. Rob is also keen on seeing the gaming community in Belfast grow. I can attest to this as he helped out at Q-Con. That obviously helps the shop out, but it also helps gamers meet other gamers.

    I suppose the staff will be different no matter where you go and it will come down to the approach of the individuals selling technique. Obviously the staff in Belfast are looking to meet target like any other store. But I have yet to see them be bastards or unpleasant to customers.

    Rob's a good friend of mine, as is Nic in the Belfast store, I worked with them a few years back. Rob loves the hobby, genuinely, and wants nothing more than gamers to get going in this country stronger than currently. And he's a bloody awesome painter!


  • Registered Users Posts: 248 ✭✭mr_kyle


    Warmaster wrote: »
    Rob's a good friend of mine, as is Nic in the Belfast store, I worked with them a few years back. Rob loves the hobby, genuinely, and wants nothing more than gamers to get going in this country stronger than currently. And he's a bloody awesome painter!

    Nic advised me on how to pin my obliterators, one of them is in the other thread. But I'm glad you can attest to my points, cause there is alot of GW staff hate going on here. I'm def not saying said individuals don't deserve it, but rather pointing out some good staff for contrast.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭Ayrtonf7


    i presume they'll be bringing these out in their own plastic set some time in the near future. something like the warbikes. although is anyone else not crazy about the black reach deffkopta minis? i just think they're a little unnecessary, warbikes are far orkier.

    Nah I think they are exclusive to the Black reach box set, well thats what ive been told by a staff member!

    Although who knows, Anything can happen.


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