The Hazards of Belief

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

The daughter of a fundamentalist preacher came out as an atheist. Her parents replied to her by email, thusly:

I thought 'reply by email' rather passive-aggressive, but she did it by email in the first place. Got some mutual relationship issues there alright. I blame the parents.

Hotblack Desiato

legspin wrote: »

Afterwards, I had to explain to my two eldest (who had made the trip with me) why the priest said something so horrible.

Bonus points if you said 'cause he's a prick'

legspin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Bonus points if you said 'cause he's a prick'

Ignorant, superstitious, self-satisfied, smug bigot was the phrase of the day.

He tried to engage me in conversation at the family meal afterwards. It was a very short interaction as I more or less blanked him. It was either that or smack the twat and t.b.h., that rarely goes down well at family events.

Peregrinus

legspin wrote: »

Ignorant, superstitious, self-satisfied, smug bigot was the phrase of the day.

He tried to engage me in conversation at the family meal afterwards. It was a very short interaction as I more or less blanked him. It was either that or smack the twat and t.b.h., that rarely goes down well at family events.

Good call.

BlaasForRafa

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I thought 'reply by email' rather passive-aggressive, but she did it by email in the first place. Got some mutual relationship issues there alright. I blame the parents.

Interesting that the fathers first response was "well you ruined your mothers holiday" before going on to the hellfire and damnation and eternal suffering of his daughter stuff.

Peregrinus

Guys, guys! The bloke has died horribly because he suffered from mental illness. If you can attach any significance at all to what he shouted as he went in to the lion pit, you can just as easily read him as an atheist, choosing to die to prove that there is no god who will save your from yourself.

Laughing at this is not really an appropriate reaction. Attempting to use it to validate either your theism or your atheism is even less appropriate.

On edit: Ignore all this. It's response to the very first post in this thread (from 2006) and the earliest comments on it, which in a moment of inattention I took to be the youngest page on this thread, not the oldest. I'm an idiot.

Hotblack Desiato

Uh, what ARE you talking about

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm an idiot.

It was four in the morning. If you're in this timezone, you should be in bed :rolleyes:

recedite

Worth reading the very first post again though.
You gotta hand it to lions. Spend most of the day lion around doing nothing, but when they take action, they don't mess around.

robindch

How illegitimacy panned out in practice - generations of separation.

So much for "a child needs its mother and father":

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/family-fortunes-the-stigma-of-illegitimacy-lasted-generations-1.2205465

Irish Times wrote:

This photograph was taken just before the outbreak of the second World War. The boy is my father, aged about five. With a very strong sense of avuncular propriety, two of his uncles rest a hand on his shoulder and clasp his hand, respectively. His parents are conspicuously absent from the photograph, because he was born out of wedlock and reared by his aunt, a sister of the two men in the picture. The alternatives to this not uncommon rural Irish “arrangement” were the mother-and-baby homes , Magdalene laundries or other institutions for so-called “fallen women”. My grandmother was rescued from this status by handing over her eldest son to her older and as yet unmarried sister, and later marrying the father after becoming pregnant for a second time.

There were four children of the marriage but a combination of skewed moral convention and guilt contrived to keep my father from ever taking his place back in that natural family unit. Once the “arrangement” was in place there would be no rehabilitation. Any sense of rejection must have been compounded on learning that his parents later adopted an English boy as “company” for their youngest son. Their financial ability to do that hints at a level of wealth generated through success in the licensed trade. It’s in marked contrast to the downbeat apparel, replete with hobnail boots and waders, of the labourers flanking my father. There is certainly no sense of “dressing up” for the camera, although efforts by the little boy’s substitute mother to have him as well-presented as possible are evident. In the lean and hungry 1930s that was probably no mean feat, given her modest means garnered from domestic service and a labourer husband.

The powerful stigma of illegitimacy extended to the next generation. Myself and my siblings never enjoyed any meaningful relationship with our natural grandparents as we were an embarrassing reminder of earlier youthful indiscretion. This photo is a reminder of a sense of loss caused primarily by the imposition of a draconian moral code by the Catholic Church. It also tells of the strength of the wider Irish family collective to achieve a pragmatic solution to what was a common enough “problem”.

looksee

You have to wonder why the elder sister was able to bring up the child with no stigma, while his own mother could not? If she had been married it would be understandable, but she was surely putting herself in line for being 'not respectable' - gossip that she was the mother would surely have been circulating?

recedite

The younger sister was marrying a publican, but the older sister "only" married a labourer. It seems that if the younger sister wanted to be upwardly mobile, she had to abandon the baggage, despite the fact that "the baggage" was the publican's own child.
Its a glimpse into a perverse past world of snobbery and false respectability.
Maybe the boy was better off in the family that cherished him, even though they were poorer.

robindch

Violent and needing an outlet? Fancy some time working in Saudi? Well, the government might have just the job for you:

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-arabia/wanted-8-new-executioners-in-saudi-arabia-1.1514517

Gulf News wrote:

Riyadh: Saudi Arabia is advertising for eight new executioners, recruiting extra staff to carry out an increasing number of death sentences, usually done by public beheading. No special qualifications are needed for the jobs whose main role is “executing a judgement of death” but also involve performing amputations on those convicted of lesser offences, the advert, posted on the civil service jobs portal, said.

The kingdom is in the top five countries in the world for putting people to death, rights groups say. It ranked number 3 in 2014, after China and Iran, and ahead of Iraq and the US, according to Amnesty International figures. A man beheaded on Sunday was the 85th person this year whose execution was recorded by the official Saudi Press Agency, compared to 88 in the whole of 2014, according to Human Rights Watch (HRW). Amnesty said there were at least 90 executions last year.

Most were executed for murder, but 38 had committed drugs offences, HRW said. About half were Saudi and the others were from Pakistan, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, India, Indonesia, Burma, Chad, Eritrea the Philippines and Sudan. Saudi authorities have not said why the number of executions has increased so rapidly, but diplomats have speculated it may be because more judges have been appointed, allowing a backlog of appeal cases to be heard.

A downloadable PDF application form for the executioner jobs, available on the website carrying Monday’s date, said the jobs were classified as “religious functionaries” and that they would be at the lower end of the civil service pay scale.

Pherekydes

Makes for grisly reading.

The last bit ruled it out for me. If I'm going to be lopping heads I'll want some decent pay. Would they even consider an Irish atheist who abhors capital punishment?

recedite

There are religious fanatics in that part of the world who will lop off heads for free. Why would His Royal Dictatorness pay his religious functionnaries any more than he needs to?

PopePalpatine

Think of it as paying for insurance that the US won't make them a pariah state for hiring jihadis.

recedite

I agree, an entry level civil service salary allows them to portray it as a respectable job, as opposed to some Islamic fanaticism.

obplayer

Christian Man Threatens To Massacre Muslims

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

I agree, an entry level civil service salary allows them to portray it as a respectable job, as opposed to some Islamic fanaticism.

Yup. American executioners generally get a prison warder's salary, plus a modest fee per execution. And as we know there is no shortage of Americans willing to kill one another for free.

But we can't be too smug. Not that long ago you could have somebody whacked in this country by a freelancer from one or other of the mobs for about 250 pounds a hit.

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

Violent and needing an outlet? Fancy some time working in Saudi? Well, the government might have just the job for you:

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-arabia/wanted-8-new-executioners-in-saudi-arabia-1.1514517

Do you need to use the supplied sword, or do you bring your own and charge it to expenses, I wonder?

robindch

The British Humanist Association is giving a free copy of a book entitled "The Young Atheist’s Handbook: Lessons for Living a Good Life Without God" to every secondary school in Scotland.

David Robertson, a religious figure connected with the Wee Frees, announced that this amounts to "indoctrination" and is "a classic example of the arrogance and intolerance of the new fundamentalist atheists":

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/reverend-brands-atheist-book-introduced-to-schools-attempt-to-indoctrinate-children-1.875669

Mr Robertson maintains a blog here from which he rails against much else.

BlaasForRafa

Oops! whata mistaka to maka!

Anti-LGBT vicar Matthew Makela resigns after popping up on Grindr gay dating app

Reverend Matthew Makela has stepped down from St John’s Lutheran church in Midland, Michigan, after he sent sexual messages to a man on Grindr.

He wrote in one message: “I love to make out naked. Oral and massage. And I top” and “I would love to mess around with a bicurious guy”, news website Queerty reported.

robindch

Haredis in Israel pretend there are no women in government:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-press-unsullied-by-female-ministers/

Before:



After:

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

Haredis in Israel pretend there are no women in government:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-press-unsullied-by-female-ministers/

Before:



After:

They didn't blur the legs....somebody is a bit of a sleazebag.......

Hotblack Desiato

The hazards of non-belief. A judge might look less favourably on you.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/boxer-john-joe-nevin-told-to-keep-his-fighting-in-the-ring-1.2221414

The judge told Nevin he was a national and international figure and that people looked up to him. He had watched with great satisfaction a TV programme about him and described him as “a good Christian”. But he was blighting his reputation by occasional instances of bad behaviour.

Are there fair trials for non-christians, "bad christians" or atheists in that court?

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Are there fair trials for non-christians, "bad christians" or atheists in that court?

Why not? It's perfectly possible to believe that A is a good Christian, B is a good Hindu, C is a good Humanist and D is a good Stoic.

Hotblack Desiato

The point is that we have a judge here commenting on how 'good' (or otherwise) an accused's practise of religion might be, which in a secular court of law is bizarre in itself.

Suppose the judge knew you were a catholic but also that you never go to mass? He couldn't call you a 'good catholic' then, and the fact that he chose to comment on the topic at all indicates that he might look less favourably on such people.

Peregrinus

The comment indicates that he looks favourably on people who have principles, and endeavour to implement them, and that such people let themselves down by "occasional instances of bad behaviour". Nevin's principles happen to be Christian principles. Nothing the judge nsays suggests that he would look less favourably on people who espouse, and seek to implement, a different set of principles, but are subject to the same behaviour lapses. If you manage to read that into it, that probably tells us more about you than about the judge.

To be honest, the aspect of this case which would worry me more is that the judge admitted to basin his assessment of Nevin's character, at least on part, on a TV programme that he had watched.

Hotblack Desiato

Thing is it's really no business of the judge what religion a defendant is, or isn't.

I'm an athiest as you are no doubt aware atheists have no 'set' of principles, as individuals they have principles but there is no collective set of 'atheist principles' except non-belief in gods

Not all atheists identify as humanists, I don't particularly, so there is the possibility this judge would look less favourably on someone like me as there is no set of principles he can say I am or am not upholding

joseph brand

[Josh] Duggar Revelations Are Just the Latest Sex Abuse Scandal to Rock Far-Right Fundamentalism.

Josh Duggar, the eldest son of the creepy super-fundamentalist clan at the center of the TLC show 19 Kids and Counting, has admitted to charges of molesting multiple underage girls when he was a teenager; he has since stepped down from his position as a sex scold for the Family Research Council. Duggar admitted to molesting five girls—some of them reportedly his sisters—and while the family claims to have addressed the situation, a timeline constructed by Gawker suggests he did not get counselling while managing to dodge any prosecution.

Doug Phillips of the far-right group Vision Forum was forced to step down after admitting to "a lengthy, inappropriate relationship with a woman." The woman in question, Lourdes Torres-Manteufel, claims it was more than "inappropriate," noting that they met when she was 15 and that he "methodically groomed" by moving her into the house as a nanny and becoming "the pastor of her church, her boss, her landlord, and the controller of all aspects of her life" before pushing for sex. The Duggars were tight with Phillips and Vision Forum, which promoted a lot of Duggar-related material.

Another hardcore fundamentalist leader who had a mentorship relationship with the Duggars, Bill Gothard, was also caught up in a sex abuse scandal last year. Gothard was the leader of Institute in Basic Life Principles, an organization that promotes the "quiverfull" philosophy—particularly its emphasis on forsaking contraception and having as many children as possible. Gothard resigned after more than 30 women accused him of sexual harassment and abuse. Prior to this, Wire reports, the Duggars were "devotees of Gothard's Advanced Training Institute seminars. Until recently, the Duggars' official website called Gothard's Embassy Institute (which he also founded) their '#1 recommended resource' for families (that page now displays as blank)."

Vision Forum, the Institute in Basic Life Principles, and the Duggar family are arguably the three most influential groups promoting the "Christian patriarchy" movement, which promotes homeschooling, wifely submission, extreme pre-marital chastity (no hand-hugging or kissing), no contraception, and the idea that women's only real role in life is as wives and mothers. Having all your major leadership eaten up by sex abuse scandals is no small thing. Even before the Duggar revelations, the head of Patrick Henry College, itself an extreme religious-right organization, was distancing himself from the Christian patriarchy movement.

I find myself bamboozled by the sheer amount of christian organisations. It's a never ending gravy train of tax exempt groups headed by unscrupulous cretins wanting to get their grubby little hands on money, and down people's pants.

• Family Research Council
• Vision Forum
• Institute in Basic Life Principles
• Advanced Training Institute
• Embassy Institute

In regards to Josh Duggar and his extremely religious crack pot family, I expected* a lot more from them. Especially since he has been so vocal on the dangers to the family of gay marriage ("every child deserves a mother and a father" - sound familiar?)

Some quotes from the 'holier than thou' Josh Duggar:

"Islam attacks women"

"Our family is the epitome of conservative values"

"Children are a gift, that require you to look beyond yourself"


At least presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee has his back. Birds of a feather . .

GOP presidential contender Mike Huckabee posted a lengthy Facebook status affirming his “support for the Duggar family,” saying that Josh Duggar – who confessed to molestation – is being attacked by “blood-thirsty media” and deserves “our support.”

Never mind the victims, what about poor Josh?