The Hazards of Belief

Nodin

bluewolf wrote: »

Can't believe that woman was forced to give birth shackled to the ground
I know it happens other places too and the whole thing is horrible

On a side note and not to deflect from the main issue - Unfortunately giving birth shackled in some form is not confined to the places one might think though, and seems to have nothing to with religion. You'd expect it in less enlightened patriarchal parts.

I never would have expected this, for instance, which is the state in connection with I first heard of the practice
https://ihrclinic.uchicago.edu/page/shackling-pregnant-prisoners-united-states

Nodin

Bellatori wrote: »

Somewhat old news really... brought about by appeals from Islam, the religion of peace? ............

There really is nothing worse that the sweeping generalisation.

Bellatori

Nodin wrote: »

There really is nothing worse that the sweeping generalisation.

Well, yes, I suppose calling it the religion of peace was a rather sweeping generalisation.

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

uh oh :pac:

We put up with you because of the calming blue and your tolerance with my editing bad
grammar into your post.

coffee_cake

Nodin wrote: »

On a side note and not to deflect from the main issue - Unfortunately giving birth shackled in some form is not confined to the places one might think though, and seems to have nothing to with religion. You'd expect it in less enlightened patriarchal parts.

I never would have expected this, for instance, which is the state in connection with I first heard of the practice
https://ihrclinic.uchicago.edu/page/shackling-pregnant-prisoners-united-states

Oh I know - they mentioned it in "orange is the new black" and it was in the news recently too IIRC. It's inhumane :mad:

Hotblack Desiato

Nodin wrote: »

Good news...yes, it happens.

Good news - the judicial system says it no longer wants to kill her.

Bad news - some rampaging mob probably will do the deed for them

Hotblack Desiato

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Quite right too.

I know for a fact he recently purchased a book by A. Rand.

Purge him!

PURGE HIM WITH FIRE!

:pac:

Look, all I said was, this piece of halibut a jaffa cake really is a cake, stale biscuits go soft but cakes go hard, and McVities took the UK VAT man to court to prove it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_cake#Categorisation_as_cake_or_biscuit_for_VAT

QED.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/generations

"Generations: 10 decades of Irish life
The interviews in this series, conducted by Rosita Boland, reveal perspectives on our country from nonagenarians to people in their twenties. They will combine to form a compelling account of Ireland over the past century."


So far they have interviewed people who are 90+, 80+ and 70+

Most say they are weekly or daily mass-goers, and describe themselves as catholic

However many of them are rather less sure on the afterlife question. For example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/i-don-t-understand-all-the-moaning-about-seamus-heaney-his-poetry-didn-t-rhyme-1.1750697?page=2

Luck plays a big part in life. Blessings from God, I call it. I’ve been very lucky in my life. If I was in any crisis I’d call on the Lord to help me, and he generally does. I’m a Catholic, and my faith is very important.

I go to Mass every Sunday, and unless the weather is cold I go every morning. I feel I have a lot to thank the Lord for, and the least I might do is to go to church.

Death possibly is the end, I think. I don’t ask any questions, though. I’m not one for probing. I just keep going to Mass and paying my respects to the Boss.

We often discuss cultural catholicism here but it always seems to be 30, 40, 50-somethings that people have in mind. Not habitual massgoers and not the OAP generations. It seems that even among the RCC's strongest demographic, doubt and disbelief is rife even if abandonment of ritual isn't.

Another example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/dan-gallagher-87-i-go-to-mass-every-morning-partly-to-see-who-s-still-alive-1.1789648?page=2

I do think there’s a very strong possibility that there’s an afterlife of some form. I go to Mass every morning, partly to see who’s still alive, but partly in case there is a hereafter. I suppose you could say I have a bet on both horses. Sometimes I feel like death is the end of it.

It’s a much simpler thought, and in recent years, that’s where I’m coming from. What would I be doing in heaven only playing cards with other people who got in too? But if there is a heaven, there has to be a hell. So I still say my prayers, just in case.

RikuoAmero

ninja900 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/generations

"Generations: 10 decades of Irish life
The interviews in this series, conducted by Rosita Boland, reveal perspectives on our country from nonagenarians to people in their twenties. They will combine to form a compelling account of Ireland over the past century."


So far they have interviewed people who are 90+, 80+ and 70+

Most say they are weekly or daily mass-goers, and describe themselves as catholic

However many of them are rather less sure on the afterlife question. For example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/i-don-t-understand-all-the-moaning-about-seamus-heaney-his-poetry-didn-t-rhyme-1.1750697?page=2



We often discuss cultural catholicism here but it always seems to be 30, 40, 50-somethings that people have in mind. Not habitual massgoers and not the OAP generations. It seems that even among the RCC's strongest demographic, doubt and disbelief is rife even if abandonment of ritual isn't.

Another example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/dan-gallagher-87-i-go-to-mass-every-morning-partly-to-see-who-s-still-alive-1.1789648?page=2

Pascal's Wager...jebus, it should be mandatory that people get an education in logical fallacies before being allowed to pick a religion or none at all.

norrie rugger

Nodin wrote: »

There really is nothing worse that the sweeping generalisation.

As opposed to forcing a woman to give birth, under threat of death, while shackled to the floor???

Really? Nothing worse?

Nodin

norrie rugger wrote: »

As opposed to forcing a woman to give birth, under threat of death, while shackled to the floor???

Really? Nothing worse?

What do you think got her there? Some crap about all Christians doing x, y and z if they convert.

norrie rugger

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-24/sudanese-woman-freed-after-apostasy-case-re-arrested-at-airport.html


Rearrested trying to leave the country??

Nodin

norrie rugger wrote: »

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-24/sudanese-woman-freed-after-apostasy-case-re-arrested-at-airport.html


Rearrested trying to leave the country??

Sad, pathetic and cowardly behaviour.

Bellatori

Nodin wrote: »

Sad, pathetic and cowardly behaviour.

Indeed.... listening to radio 4 this morning before this broke it was suggested that the delay in anything happening was that a lot of Christian groups had protested and the Sudan Gov't did not want to be seen bowing to pressure from them hence the delay. Clearly the EU and US need to make it clear that they DO mean business when they stated they would cut the aid budget. What worries me is that they are now focussed on Syria and this woman will be left to the mercies of Sudan.

recedite

I go to Mass every morning, partly to see who’s still alive...

They say that the birds sing in the mornings for the same reason.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

They say that the birds sing in the mornings for the same reason.

Reminds me of the grandmother. Ear glued to the death notices on Radio Na Gaeltachta.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

Reminds me of the grandmother. Ear glued to the death notices on Radio Na Gaeltachta.

Or John Lydon's 'Religion'

'Do you pray to the Holy Ghost
When you suck your host?
Do you read who's dead
In the Irish Post?

Do you give away
The cash you can't afford?
On bended knees
And pray to Lord'

Hotblack Desiato

Nodin wrote: »

Reminds me of the grandmother. Ear glued to the death notices on Radio Na Gaeltachta.

Sure they don't know themselves nowadays with the rip.ie app. (if there isn't one, there should be!)

Cabaal

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28010234

A Nigerian man has been sent to a mental institute in Kano state after he declared that he did not believe in God, according to a humanist charity.

Mubarak Bala, 29, is said to have been forcibly medicated by his Muslim relatives, despite being given a clean bill of health by a doctor.

Nodin

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28010234

'Take drugs, they'll help you believe'.

recedite

As he's a chemical engineering graduate, he probably knows more about the drugs than the people shoving them down his throat. But that won't get him out of there.

Hotblack Desiato

So.. if the alternative is incarceration or death, is it rational to refuse to fake belief?

obplayer

ninja900 wrote: »

So.. if the alternative is incarceration or death, is it rational to refuse to fake belief?

But unfortunately sometimes things only change when enough people are willing to stand up and say 'this is nonsense'. As long as no-one is willing to do this the irrational and deluded religious mob will get away with their craziness.
Having said that I am quite willing to admit I am vey uncertain whether I would have the courage to do what this man has done, but I salute him and all like him and hope that in a similar situation I wold be brave enough to do likewise.

Hotblack Desiato

Well, put it this way - if I could avoid, say, losing my job or property, or having to skip the country, or facing threats of serious physical harm, for myself by suffering some minor inconvenience for half an hour a week and uttering some mumbo-jumbo I didn't believe in, it might be worth doing. And none of these are as bad as prison or a death sentence. It's not the courageous thing to do but if you believe you've only one life to live, martyrdom becomes a lot less attractive.

A lot of grown adult cultural catholics here are doing the exact same thing rather than risk a row with their mammy FFS...

obplayer

ninja900 wrote: »

Well, put it this way - if I could avoid, say, losing my job or property, or having to skip the country, or facing threats of serious physical harm, for myself by suffering some minor inconvenience for half an hour a week and uttering some mumbo-jumbo I didn't believe in, it might be worth doing. And none of these are as bad as prison or a death sentence. It's not the courageous thing to do but if you believe you've only one life to live, martyrdom becomes a lot less attractive.

A lot of grown adult cultural catholics here are doing the exact same thing rather than risk a row with their mammy FFS...

And if everyone thought that way we would still be living in the middle ages. Which is why I salute the man and hope, not by any means know but hope, that I would do likewise in his situation.
As for the grown adults who won't risk a row with their mammy....words fail me.

Hotblack Desiato

I didn't ask whether it was right to resist, but whether it is rational.

obplayer

ninja900 wrote: »

I didn't ask whether it was right to resist, but whether it is rational.

That depends on whether you are thinking of just your life now or of future lives. Dealing with global warming makes no sense if you are just thinking of your own life but if you are thinking of the lives of your descendants', and your families descendants', it does make sense.

Turtwig

I wonder this too. Especially when you consider that throughout history many revolutionaries grew up in relative prosperity but still risked their lives so others could have a better standard of living. That takes an unbelievable amount of courage. Or perhaps, more cynically, a public death wish. The hypothesis that some humans have a desire to be martyrs. Dying for something as opposed to dying for nothing.

Me? I think I'm a coward if radical Islam took root here I'd probably just keep my head down, stay out of trouble and try to keep doing what I'm allowed to do. While being as nice as possible to others. I'm simply too scared to lose whatever quality of life I have. I suspect many people I know would be the same too. To rebel would likely mean death or worse!

What about you guys would you rebel?

Don't get me wrong I'm (we're?) grateful that people do rebel for better standards of living. I just don't think I'd be one of them.

Thankfully these days protesting don't really carry much risk in our society. Probably its greatest virtue.

smacl

ninja900 wrote: »

I didn't ask whether it was right to resist, but whether it is rational.

Personally, I don't think martyrdom is either rational or sensible, and would question how much long term good a martyr does for their cause other than briefly placing it in the spot light. Reading stories on Amnesty international, causes seem better served by working for them over protracted periods of time, often involving a life time of small sacrifices. While I fully accept that some people will be entirely intransigent when it comes a fundamental point of principal, it is my belief that there is often more to be gained by playing the long game.

If you think about it, martyrs are essentially fundamentalists, which would make me wary of them.

legspin

ninja900 wrote: »

Sure they don't know themselves nowadays with the rip.ie app. (if there isn't one, there should be!)

Maybe it's just me but I find it quite ghoulish. My wife loves it though.