Prostitution

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 04:34PM

Aare, I talk to real prostitutes. I am FRIENDS with a number of prostitutes. I am NOT a punter.

Most do NOT like their job, but they do it by choice. You can still dislike something yet choose to do it.

aare · 14-05-2009 04:37PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Aare, I understand you feel you had no choice, but come on, I am telling you I know girls who definitely are doing it by choice.

So...why do you think I should acknowledge that while you consistently invalidate the fact that I know far more women in prostitution on terms of far greater confidence and that, in my whole experience, only one ever pretended to be doing it by choice at all?

Joycey · 14-05-2009 04:43PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I don't know what point you are trying to make, but yes I used to run a number of porn sites (some with original content) which were very successful and everyone made a lot of money.

I would have thought the point was fairly obvious, but here, il spell it out:
as someone who profits from the prostitution of others, your opinion can not be considered objective. Its in your interest to defend it, why would we listen to you when were trying to decide whether to legislate for it or not?

Its like listening to tobacco companies when trying to decide the legal status of cigarettes.

Joycey · 14-05-2009 04:53PM

Just as a (kind of) aside, I went looking to see what the legal status of porn was, it wasnt really something Id ever really put a lot of thought into, but trying to decide whether to call Aarrrgh a pimp or not spurred me to go look into it.

Well, porn is pretty much legal to shoot everywhere, except for a couple of states in America it appears.

Found this CNN article and thought it was interesting: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/12/colb.pornography/index.html

Thinking about it, there doesnt really seem to be any meaningful distinction really. Just that porn is (by and large) more sanitised, and involves less direct contact with the people who are turning you into an object for their sexual gratification.

The legal grounds for distinguishing between the two seem pretty flimsy, I wonder has anybody ever tried to sue the makers of porn films. Can you enlighten us Aarrrgh?

aare · 14-05-2009 05:00PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

And I am fully aware the industry does not guarantee X hours of work per day. But even one client per day (i.e. one hours work) - that can be €300 cash into your hand.

You are still agreeing with me but are still saying I'm clueless. Can you not see that keeps happening?

Apart from that just being another of your sematic games I think you can be very sure that I am not agreeing with you that 250euros (the figure you cited earlier) less 50% to the agency equals "€300 cash into your hand." and I doubt if anyone else ever will.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 05:04PM

Can we stop with the ad hominem attacks please? Yeah, I'm a pimp who only has this opinion because prostitutes make me sooo much money. :rolleyes:

I'll state my opinion very clearly -

I agree most prostitutes dislike or hate what they do.
I agree all prostitutes only do it for financial reasons.
I believe we should respect the choices people make, no matter how bad we personally think those choices are. (Yes, I personally do not like prostitution).

To expand on the above -

Hating or disliking something does not remove choice. Many people hate their job but still choose to do it every day.

Every prostitute has a different financial motivation. Not all prostitutes are heroin addicts who need money. If you only want to talk about the desperate street prostitutes - no problem - but you need to clarify that is who you are talking about. A very large part of prostitution is "escorting" and these women are definitely not in great financial difficulty. Many of these women do not have financial problems but continue to do what they do because they are making so much money.

In summary, I believe you can hate something, but if you choose to do it, people should respect that choice.

I always thought these were the opinions of a liberal feminist, but obviously I'm a misguided monster.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 05:06PM

aare wrote: »

Apart from that just being another of your sematic games I think you can be very sure that I am not agreeing with you that 250euros (the figure you cited earlier) less 50% to the agency equals "€300 cash into your hand." and I doubt if anyone else ever will.

Will you stop misquoting me. You just can't stop it, can you?

I said brothels pay around €100 into the hand, and escorts who don't work in a brothel make up to €250 - €300 per hour.

I honestly don't know if you are misquoting me on purpose of if you just have a problem reading my posts. It's not a semantic game: read my posts or get someone to help you read them.

Joycey · 14-05-2009 05:25PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Can we stop with the ad hominem attacks please? Yeah, I'm a pimp who only has this opinion because prostitutes make me sooo much money. :rolleyes:

Fair enough, I shouldnt be attacking you, but I think its definitely relevant that you have profitted from it and so may not have an entirely disinterested view of things.

I'll state my opinion very clearly -
I agree most prostitutes dislike or hate what they do.

I agree all prostitutes only do it for financial reasons.

I believe we should respect the choices people make, no matter how bad we personally think those choices are. (Yes, I personally do not like prostitution).

Agreed with all of the above. Which, (to go back a couple of pages in the thread) is why I was saying we should decriminalise the position of the seller they are doing nothing wrong. But that people who exploit the difference in power which exists between the two parties due to the money that one party has and the other party needs should be prosecutable by law. And further, that those who profit from the selling of sexual services by others without having to perform any sexual act themselves should be prosecuted far far harsher even then the customer.
To expand on the above -

Hating or disliking something does not remove choice. Many people hate their job but still choose to do it every day.

Back to the definition of choice/consent etc... No point going back into it really, if you cant recognise that if I put a gun to someones head and say "do this" its a choice, just as being forced to have sex for money to feed/clothe/live somewhere is also a choice.

In summary, I believe you can hate something, but if you choose to do it, people should respect that choice.

I respect the choice of prostitutes, I dont think they are a lower form of being or anything of the kind, which you seem to believe follows from my condemnation of the situation which has led them to engage in prostitition in the first place.

I always thought these were the opinions of a liberal feminist, but obviously I'm a misguided monster.

Well liberal yes, feminist, not too sure. I would recognise you as being more in the pursuit of the best interests of women if, as I said way earlier, you were campaigning for the eradication of the many, many problems associated with prostitution as it currently exists, not being an apologist for the status quo, and campaigning for the recognition of the legitimacy of the exploitation of prostitutes due to an imbalance in power which arises from one having money and the other needing it.

aare · 14-05-2009 05:26PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Will you stop misquoting me. You just can't stop it, can you?

I said brothels pay around €100 into the hand, and escorts who don't work in a brothel make up to €250 - €300 per hour.

I honestly don't know if you are misquoting me on purpose of if you just have a problem reading my posts. It's not a semantic game: read my posts or get someone to help you read them.

I am not "misquoting" you, you said:

AARRRGH wrote:

They all make a lot of money (about €250 per hour for non-brothel work, and about €100 per hour for brothel work.)

Those are the rates they are paid by the clients...of which they have to hand 50% to the agency/brothel...

...and even if they didn't they STILL wouldn't be getting "€300" from one client a day as you later claimed.

aare · 14-05-2009 05:30PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Can we stop with the ad hominem attacks please? Yeah, I'm a pimp who only has this opinion because prostitutes make me sooo much money. :rolleyes:

(I might be prepared to agree with THAT.)

aare · 14-05-2009 05:36PM

Joycey wrote: »

I dont think they are a lower form of being or anything of the kind, which you seem to believe follows from my condemnation of the situation which has led them to engage in prostitition in the first place.

You certainly haven't given me that impression anyway...:)

It's a simple matter of recognising that "there but for the grace of God go I".

(When all is said and done, a lot of people, in desperation, see stealing, cheating and hurting others as a more viable option...)

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 06:47PM

I can't reply to everything, as it is obvious even if I wrote exactly what you would like to hear, you would find fault with it.

I fully accept that some women feel they have no choice but to become a prostitute (obviously they have other choices, but I accept they couldn't see them at the time), but at some stage they will have to accept personal responsibility for their actions - especially if they continue selling themselves for many years. Whatever about a few months of depression and bad decisions, working as a prostitute for years is definitely a choice.

I take offence at the accusation that I am an "apologist for the status quo". That is so far from the truth, and so intellectually inept, I don't even know how to respond to it.

aare wrote: »

I am not "misquoting" you, you said:

Those are the rates they are paid by the clients...of which they have to hand 50% to the agency/brothel...

...and even if they didn't they STILL wouldn't be getting "€300" from one client a day as you later claimed.

I said non-brothel workers can get €250 - €300 per hour. Brothel workers get under half this.

Read and re-read the above two sentences. Don't make me re-type them for a fourth time.

If you still think I am saying brothel workers can get €250 - €300 an hour, either you are a troll, or you can't read. Just in case the difficulty is maths related, 50% of €250 is €125. So if a client goes to a brothel and pays €250, the prostitute gets around €125.

Please, take extra care reading my posts because it is now absurd how frequently you are misunderstanding what I write.

aare · 14-05-2009 07:07PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I said non-brothel workers can get €250 - €300 per hour. Brothel workers get under half this.

Read and re-read the above two sentences. Don't make me re-type them for a fourth time.

Your EXACT own words were:

aarrrgh wrote:

They all make a lot of money (about €250 per hour for non-brothel work, and about €100 per hour for brothel work.)

I suggest you "retype" it until you have ceased to try and pretend you said something quite different...

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 07:13PM

Aare, will you stop attacking me.

Your whole argument is based around the concept of there being no choice. I disagree. The reason I disagree is because I know first hand that many women do have a choice. They are not all desperate heroin addicts.

...

I cannot believe you still think I am saying brothel workers get €250 - €300 per hour. What do I have to say to make you read my posts properly...

EDIT: I can see you've been removing the personal attacks. Thanks.

aare · 14-05-2009 07:29PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I cannot believe you still think I am saying brothel workers get €250 - €300 per hour. That's just total absurd madness.

Do you mean you didn't say it like this:

AARRRGH wrote: »

Prostitution has come a long way since the 80's and 90's. Most prostitutes these days advertise online or work in brothels. They all make a lot of money (about €250 per hour for non-brothel work, and about €100 per hour for brothel work.)

Or did you "not say" it a bit more like this:

AARRRGH wrote: »

And I am fully aware the industry does not guarantee X hours of work per day. But even one client per day (i.e. one hours work) - that can be €300 cash into your hand.

Don't you think that is far more manipulative than informative?

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 07:57PM

aare wrote: »

Attacking YOU???

Yes, I've noticed you've gone and edited all your posts. Very clever!

aare wrote: »

You are the one who chose to post potentially destructive private information about me against my expressed wishes today just to score a cheap point by harming me...

That was a cold blooded and deliberate attack.

God you are so amazingly defensive and aggressive.

You need to chill and stop reading my posts in the most negative way possible. I know you are doing this because you're constantly twisting around (misquoting) the things I say into some odd and negative version. If you genuinely aren't misquoting me - if you really think I'm saying those things - then please go back and re-read my posts because you've misunderstood large portions of them.

aare wrote: »

No there aren't [any other options]

Of course there are. I know entire families who were brought up on nothing other than welfare.

As I said earlier, I fully accept some prostitutes feel they have no choice, but to continue working as a prostitute for years... especially when you hate every moment of it and consider it sexual assault... at some stage you have to re-evaluate your options and your decisions in life.

...

I'll try one last time with the misquoting. Your attempts at point scoring are pathetic.

First I said this:

AARRRGH wrote:

€250 per hour for non-brothel work, and about €100 per hour for brothel work

Then I said this:

AARRRGH wrote:

even one client per day (i.e. one hours work) - that can be €300 cash into your hand. [note I do not say this is what you make in a brothel - I am obviously referring to non-brothel work]

Then I said this:

AARRRGH wrote:

brothels pay around €100 into the hand, and escorts who don't work in a brothel make up to €250 - €300 per hour.

Then I said this:

AARRRGH wrote:

non-brothel workers can get €250 - €300 per hour

Will you now accept that you decided to misquote me on how much money brothel and non-brothel prostitutes make, and that I don't think brothels pay €300 per hour? I don't even understand what point you are trying to make, apart from trying to "win" something from this debate.

If you can just stick to the issues and not try to misquote me we won't have to keep doing this dance.

herya · 14-05-2009 07:58PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

[*]I believe we should respect the choices people make, no matter how bad we personally think those choices are. (Yes, I personally do not like prostitution).

This choice thing is one big misconception. I presume that you are a smart, intelligent, rational individual. Most of prostitutes are not.

You work(ed) with prostitutes who - I presume again - are young, attractive women for whom this job seems to be a good choice of career for now, so this is your impression of the industry.

Get back to them in 20 years. See how many actually do anything decent with their life. You seem to think that they make savings and investments to get themselves a nest egg. Maybe they think so too.

A small minority might be actually fine and even get something from it finacially. The rational and savvy, and lucky ones.
Others will spend their money to cheer themselves up - do you know how much it costs to be a prostitute, all those hair, tan and wax procedures? Health checks, treatments? All those clothes, lingerie? Drinks? Entertainment? They don't keep all the money for themselves, you know this right?
Some won't get out of business ever - they may have issues that got them into it in the first place, they may have nowhere and no one to go to. How do you explain a 5 or 10 year gap on your CV you spent whoring? Do you think they all attend college classes during the day? Laughable. Do you think their families believe them when they say all this time they were waitressing abroad? Ah sure.

And this is just about the escorts - there are much worse industry sectors.

My experience with prostitutes is only from observation but I've seen older prostitutes gathering around hotels, giving blowjobs in doorways and cars, quickies up the walls. Ruined faces, choppy hair, raspy voices. Vulnerable to all kinds of abuse and violence.

I've seen the ones along the main routes trying to attract truck drivers, with thighs blue from the cold in their leather miniskirts, each with a water bottle - not to drink, to wash themselves between punters. Pimps driving along their two or three mile stretch, collecting money and bringing them alcohol.

For a month I lived next door to a luxury escort agency pimping students (they had "sophisticated girlfriend experience" advertised on their leaflets), these girls were leaving this apartment at the same time in the morning as I was leaving mine and some were taking the same bus to the campus. I've seen them crying, with black eyes, depressed, we've heard loud arguments through their door on many occasions.

Maybe there are happy fulfilled prostitutes, I haven't seen them. Perhaps because they don't look like prostitutes. But i sincerely doubt they form a majority.

This is a degrading life and even if there is a moment at the beginning when they "make a choice" for most of them is nearly impossible to undo it if they change their mind. For external as well as internal reasons - depression, humiliation, shame. Drugs, dependencies they developed.

And if - as you put it - they are not suited, it's not something they can just leave behind and forget as you would accountancy, chalk it up to experience and move on. If they are not suited, this is very possibly a deep traumatic experience, stemming from sex servicing strangers and humiliation/abuse they were exposed to. If you believe all punters are well behaved, groomed and mannerly, well think again.

It's possible that some prostitutes are savvy businesswomen who separate sex from anything else and can make some sort of short time career of it - more power to them. But you are deeply wrong pushing the idea that they define the industry.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 08:09PM

@Herya:

Could you clarify if you are talking about the herion street prostitutes, or prostitutes in general, because every prostitute I know (they would be the "escort" types) are smart women who are doing something with their lives. One of them just graduated with a business degree, one runs a business (cleaning company) and another is in the process of buying a restaurant in her home country.

I agree that prostitution isn't a nice job, and I agree that it isn't going to give you a lot of happy memories for when you're older

but that's irrelevant really. Many jobs (e.g. soldier) are horrible jobs which might leave you disturbed.

I don't believe prostitution should be banned based on it being unpleasant. But I do think we need to radically change the industry. For example: regular counselling, regular health checks, proper regulations for the safety of the women, etc.

And if someone wants to do it, well it's their life, and we should give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're getting themselves into. I don't think any woman thinks it's going to be a party...

aare · 14-05-2009 08:22PM

Herya,

I am rather afraid that you have just told it the way it is...

Except this part:

herya wrote: »

This choice thing is one big misconception. I presume that you are a smart, intelligent, rational individual. Most of prostitutes are not.

Because the worst part of it all is that by far the most of them certainly WERE "smart, intelligent, rational individuals" in the beginning...

...until the whole nightmare of the ironical "double life" they have to lead, burned that part of them out...

A prostitute lives behind a glass wall...able, even obliged, to see and interact with the rest of the world on normal everyday terms, but never able to be part of it...

The toll that takes is phenomenol.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 08:28PM

@Aare: I saw you edit your posts, e.g. in post 558 you called me all sorts of things but then you went and edited it.

I'm being straight up and honest with you, so please cut the crap.

Regarding your comment that sometimes all options are bad - I agree. But do you have to consistently pick the worst one?! Come on, now... there are always better options than many years of prostitution, lying there thinking you are being sexually assaulted.

Will you please try to talk to me normally? All I'm seeing is attack after attack. I genuinely believe if I wrote the most perfect post possible you'd attack it.

herya · 14-05-2009 08:34PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

@Herya:

Could you clarify if you are talking about the herion street prostitutes, or prostitutes in general, because every prostitute I know (they would be the "escort" types) are smart women who are doing something with their lives.

But you see this is your problem. You know a small sample of successful escorts in one relatively wealthy country and this is exactly the profile when some of them would be more likely to plan ahead or have some degree of control, or at least have some idea of the costs/profits balance in this job. Plus a relatively easy way out and probably reduced abuse risk (although nobody can guarantee what a punter will do once alone with you - they don't have to hit or rape you to abuse or humiliate you).

But apart from this you have other escorts, street hookers, hotel hookers, illegal brothels, these girls along motorways (and who knows how many "types" more); so when I mention prostitution I mean all of them.

Your generalisations make no sense when applied to all prostitutes. If you need to say "she could have left in 8 years" you may mean a young, independent, businesslike escort. Certainly not all prostitutes. You interpolate your very narrow business/hobby experience on a very broad social phenomenon.

herya · 14-05-2009 08:41PM

aare wrote: »

Because the worst part of it all is that by far the most of them certainly WERE "smart, intelligent, rational individuals" in the beginning...

aare, just to clarify, I didn't mean to say that prostitutes are less intelligent, I just meant that in the whole population (any population) "smart, intelligent, rational individuals" who are capable of making life changing decisions on a rational, well thought out basis are in the minority and prostitutes are no different. There is a deeply hurtful aspect to prostitution though and informed choices are even less possible, while getting out of it is so much more difficult.

Kudos to those who succeeded.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 08:46PM

herya wrote: »

But you see this is your problem. You know a small sample of successful escorts in one relatively wealthy country and this is exactly the profile when some of them would be more likely to plan ahead or have some degree of control, or at least have some idea of the costs/profits balance in this job. Plus a relatively easy way out and probably reduced abuse risk (although nobody can guarantee what a punter will do once alone with you - they don't have to hit or rape you to abuse or humiliate you).

But apart from this you have other escorts, street hookers, hotel hookers, illegal brothels, these girls along motorways (and who knows how many "types" more); so when I mention prostitution I mean all of them.

Your generalisations make no sense when applied to all prostitutes. If you need to say "she could have left in 8 years" you may mean a young, independent, businesslike escort. Certainly not all prostitutes. You interpolate your very narrow business/hobby experience on a very broad social phenomenon.

My whole argument is based around refusing to generalise. I have repeatedly stated everyone is different so we should not assume _everyone_ is financially desperate or _everyone_ has a drug problem or _everyone_ has no options.

The reality is there are girls who are poor and there are girls who are loaded.

Regardless of this, I think all girls should have assistance, and people with drug problems should be put on rehabilitation courses.

At no point at all am I trying to say prostitution is a nice life, or an easy life, or (excluding the money) in any way positive. In my opinion, at least.

...

If you calculate how much money prostitutes make, that's a hell of a lot of money over a number of years. Aare is trying to claim prostitution is the best option for most prostitutes, even though (in her opinion) all of them hate it and all feel they are being sexually assaulted every day.

Come on, that's just nonsense. There are always other options - they may not be great options (e.g. no one thinks the dole is a greta option) but they are still options. Some prostitutes maybe can't see that (unfortunately) but that isn't prostitutions fault, it is (sadly) the prostitutes own fault. She wants the world to believe every prostitute is a heroin addict with a violent pimp. They're not. My friends are proof of this.

Please don't think I at all think prostitution is great. I don't. I actually think it is fairly disgusting, but that's just me. But I won't try to ban something just because I don't like it.

At the end of the day, we can either clamp down on prostitution (this won't work) or we can do nothing (sort of works, but isn't great) or we can try to improve the lives of the prostitutes. I very much support option three.

herya · 14-05-2009 08:57PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you calculate how much money prostitutes make, that's a hell of a lot of money over eight years.

I actually think it's some kind of a myth. I read several articles (academic articles for my studies as well as more analytical press articles) about "escort" prostitution and what I remembered were tremendous costs of this job - they pay inflated rent, they pay their pimps or security men, their pay for all their beauty procedures and not once in a month for going out but every single day, they pay for the clothes etc, they have huge medical costs (often having discreet private medical care), they often become shopaholics (to justify what they are doing with spoiling themselves etc.). Again some escorts may be savvy and shrewd but I'm not sure it's the norm.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Come on, that's just nonsense as she could have saved some money and left the industry, or gotten a job in a different industry, or gone on the dole, or gone to a woman's shelter. There were better options. She couldn't see that (unfortunately) but that isn't prostitutions fault, it is (sadly) her own fault.

Honestly I could come up with a dozen of possible reasons and you could too.
Maybe she was depressed or drug dependent and couldn't hold any job.
Maybe she had a violent boyfriend turned pimp.
Maybe she had small children and nobody to leave them with and no job to feed them (think 80s) - in prostitution you don't put many hours and you work at night.
Maybe maybe maybe.

aare · 14-05-2009 09:00PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

@Aare: I saw you edit your posts, e.g. in post 558 you called me all sorts of things but then you went and edited it.

I sometimes make very small, insignificant deletions when I calm down a little or significant additions when I think of something...but not in the devious way you do and try to cover by falsely attributing to me.

Let me go on the record that though I do not feel it is appropriate to post it repeatedly, or in detail on this thread, the opinion I have formed of you is so low that I have nothing to hide for any reason but relevancy to the topic.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm being straight up and honest with you,

I do not believe that, and I have never seen you post in a way that suggested that.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Regarding your comment that sometimes all options are bad - I agree. But do you have to consistently pick the worst one?!

...and sometimes all the options ARE bad enough to be "worse" (I am wondering what kind of scale one uses for the comparative evaluation of very bad options anyway).

herya · 14-05-2009 09:00PM

Actually I'd like to see prostitution legalised, with health checks, passport checks, security etc.

But I would also suggest holding "prostitute exams" first. You need to sleep with 5 strangers, attractive and ugly, polite and rough, clean and dirty, standard and nonstandard sex. And accept money from them. Then return in a month and sign the contract that yes this is exactly what you want to do professionally.

If you're "not suited" it's much better to learn at this stage.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 09:03PM

herya wrote: »

I actually think it's some kind of a myth. I read several articles (academic articles for my studies as well as more analytical press articles) about "escort" prostitution and what I remembered were tremendous costs of this job - they pay inflated rent, they pay their pimps or security men, their pay for all their beauty procedures and not once in a month for going out but every single day, they pay for the clothes etc, they have huge medical costs (often having discreet private medical care), they often become shopaholics (to justify what they are doing with spoiling themselves etc.). Again some escorts may be savvy and shrewd but I'm not sure it's the norm.

No, they makes loads of cash. Certainly enough to save a few hundred per week.

herya wrote: »

Honestly I could come up with a dozen of possible reasons and you could too.
Maybe she was depressed or drug dependent and couldn't hold any job.
Maybe she had a violent boyfriend turned pimp.
Maybe she had small children and nobody to leave them with and no job to feed them (think 80s) - in prostitution you don't put many hours and you work at night.
Maybe maybe maybe.

Yeah, but even using your examples, it takes a bit of a leap of faith to believe working as a prostitute for many years is the "best" choice you can make.

I have no problem with her saying some people make bad decisions or have limited options, but to claim every prostitute has no choice is just silly.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 09:06PM

herya wrote: »

Actually I'd like to see prostitution legalised, with health checks, passport checks, security etc.

But I would also suggest holding "prostitute exams" first. You need to sleep with 5 strangers, attractive and ugly, polite and rough, clean and dirty, standard and nonstandard sex. And accept money from them. Then return in a month and sign the contract that yes this is exactly what you want to do professionally.

If you're "not suited" it's much better to learn at this stage.

I agree with you somewhat, but I'd change the exam to a psychological profile or something like that.

But unfortunately, there will be women who fail the test but want to work as prostitutes anyway.

I think continuous free support (counselling, health checks, etc.) is the only realistic thing which might work.

herya · 14-05-2009 09:07PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

...

...

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 09:12PM

aare wrote: »

I am not giving you any more personal details about my life to store up and abuse when ever you feel you might get a kick out of it in the future.

You have such a twisted opinion of reality.

What you think I am saying, and what I am actually saying, are two very different things.

I don't know what to say to you because you keep coming back with bizarre interpretations.

Prostitution

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