Grounded because I don't believe in God.

TempestSabre

Macros42 wrote:

...Your parents have no right to enforce a religion on you. Their house is not a temple or church. Their rules have no bearing on your beliefs....

Its not their rules. Its the rules of their religon. They are obligated to bring up their children as catholics.

How the rights of parents to practise their own religion relate to a childs civils rights I have no idea. And when are you an adult legally? 18? As a child are you legally entitled not to go to mass? Probably.

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=9363&sec=59&con=61

Orion

Thaedydal wrote:

Until a child is 18 a parent is thier legal and moral gaurdain and if the parents happend to be christain then they have sworn to bring up thier children in thier faith.

That's a Catholic thing more that a Christian thing. Catholicism differs from other Christian faiths in that the community worship together. In Protestant beliefs you "stand alone before God". That is why I'd assume that the OP's parents are Catholic. tbh the highest principle in Catholicism is guilt - hence the heavy reaction from the OP's parents.

Orion

TempestSabre wrote:

Its not their rules. Its the rules of their religon. They are obligated to bring up their children as catholics.

So they are obligated to penalise their child for his free will. They didn't fail in their duty - they brought him up in their faith. But he has reached his own decision regarding his faith or lack of therein and is being penalised for it.

How the rights of parents to practise their own religion relate to a childs civils rights I have no idea. And when are you an adult legally? 18? As a child are you legally entitled not to go to mass? Probably.

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=9363&sec=59&con=61

You should read The Bicentennial Man by Asimov (not the film - that had no bearing on the book). When the robot went to court to be declared free the judge ruled that any being with the intelligence to understand the concept and desire the state of freedom cannot be prevented from obtaining it. Regarding the OP - he was brought up as a Catholic and has reached the level of maturity where he does not desire to continue in this faith - that is his decision - not his parents.

TempestSabre

Basically if you can sue them successfully, then you are old enough.

pisslips

Did the spiritual leaders have the right to make islamic fundamentalists out of terrorists because they felt it was their duty?Why is it right for her parents to force religion on her?
Idealism doesn't work in real life, you need to be pragmatic,80% of the world population,who happen not to be as privaliged as me ,and i think you aswell, know that.

You have to just learn to have confidence in your own beliefs so that you don't feel you need the approval of others even if they are your parents.Then you can justify being a little diplomatic for your parents sake and not for yours.Being able to compromise, even on your strongest beliefs is also part of growing up, so long as it's for the right reasons.
But yeah, I do think you should make a peacefull protest if you will, at least it will be a learning experience, you probably find a lot out about your parents aswell.


Also, she has already made the decision not to believe in God, It's impossible to take that right away without mind control.You don't have to prove yourself to anyone,you don't believe in god it's as simple as that.

gypsygirl

(they don't listen to me.)
Have YOU tried listening to them, Its sounds harsh but maybe your folks need to know that they're heard too. Maybe if you heard their side, you may understand them a bit little bit more and realise where they're coming from. You know they have your best interests at heart so whatever they do they're doing it for you. Tell 'em why you feel as you do but at least have an argument to back it up. If my girl has something to say she sez it, not always pleasent but at least its out in de open and you can deal with it. You're parent"s can't know if ya feel bad if you don't tell 'em.

TempestSabre

Compromise. Go every 2nd week.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Hang on... didn't Jesus die on the corss for honesty? Didn't he get horsewhipped because he refused to give in to Pontius Pilate?

Your beliefs (and those of your parents) instruct you to hold firm and ride out the punishment with dignity, recpect and love for your parents... but not to budge one inch where your beliefs are concerned.

One question I would like to ask the OP: Do you have an alternate faith to which you do practice? Is it possible your parents would accept your decision if you practices buddhism, for example? Most parental fears revolve around their kids not having a belief at all, rather than not having a belief in catholicsim.

jimmycrackcorm

I'm well in my thirties and still get this attitude from my ma about going to mass when I'm down at home. The difference with me and my younger rebellious OP compatriot is that as a parent myself now, I appreciate how much my ma did for me when I was a child and If all it take is going to mass to keep her happy then so be it - it's a small price to pay. But then the OP is young and full of the folly of youth.

In years to come, mass wil be like the teaching of Irish. We all hated it but suddenly Gaelscoileanna sprung up everywhere.

Kernel32

I probably stopped going to mass around 16 or 17. Like many I had no interest much younger. I am a parent myself now of two kids and neither are baptized. In saying all that I 100% support your parents right to have you go to mass. What you believe is entirely up to yourself but what your parents request of you is another matter. If we switched mass with school for a minute what would the comments be like wonder? A 14 year who wishs to drop out of school because he believes it has no value to him. If your parents are Catholics then to them going to church may be as important as going to school.

When you finally work for a living you will realize you will have to do things in a job you may feel is pointless or counter productive. You will do them because it is required of you, or you will not hold a job for long. At some point you will progress in your career enough to be able to push back on these activities and provide reasoning as to why it's pointless. This is all part of life.

lostexpectation

gypsy girl he did say he talked to parents about it twice, as he said why are you telling us he didn't?

Can his parents not give him 'moral guidance' without going Church everyweek. Thats a point you might raise with you parents put the ball in their court they probably wouldn't have a clue what to do...

Er our faith eh you go to mass every week, dress nicely at christmas so the neighbours can see....

If he was off drinking are whatever I'd be more worried?

I wonder deltablaze can you remember what happened in the last mass you went to, I would actually love any of the people here tell me what happened at mass last Sunday.

I was thinking if I heard

I appreciate how much my ma did for me when I was a child and If all it take is going to mass to keep her happy then so be it - it's a small price to pay. But then the OP is young and full of the folly of youth.

Lieing to mother as repayment, thats wonderful. :rolleyes:

In years to come, mass wil be like the teaching of Irish. We all hated it but suddenly Gaelscoileanna sprung up everywhere.

Thats the most ridiculous statement I read all day, actually second most, quite condescending there Jimmy.

A typical Irish mass, hmmm no I can't think of any benefits. Im really trying to think of any longterm benefit of going to mass when I did as a kid.
....
....
....
....
....
....
....
I can't think of any... I really don't think you learn anything there, you probably get far more out of your bi-weekly religions classes if anything.

I can see the benefit to learning Irish, I guess the same as I saw them then, I hated the exams, and the homework, the pressure of not being very good at it. I wish the pressure had been taken down a notch, thats the only comparison I can see.

Most parental fears revolve around their kids not having a belief at all, rather than not having a belief in catholicsim.

? Ya deltablaze convert to Islam you parents will be relieved you've chosen the ONE GOD.

tbh the highest principle in Catholicism is guilt - hence the heavy reaction from the OP's parents.

hehe

deltablaze

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Hang on... didn't Jesus die on the corss for honesty? Didn't he get horsewhipped because he refused to give in to Pontius Pilate?

Your beliefs (and those of your parents) instruct you to hold firm and ride out the punishment with dignity, recpect and love for your parents... but not to budge one inch where your beliefs are concerned.

One question I would like to ask the OP: Do you have an alternate faith to which you do practice? Is it possible your parents would accept your decision if you practices buddhism, for example? Most parental fears revolve around their kids not having a belief at all, rather than not having a belief in catholicsim.

Nope, and if I did it would not be accepted in the household.

Conar

Why don't you just tell your parents that you're finding the priest strangely attractive.
That'll confuse them into giving in.

Beruthiel

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Aren't you an Atheist?
Why would you force that on a child that does not believe?

agnostic actually.
and I never brought my daughter to mass, she did her communion thingie though, she was seven and needed to be the same as all the rest of the class, so at that stage she asked to see the inside of a church, once was enough for her apparently.... now, she is also an agnostic

Beruthiel

Macros42 wrote:

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet so I don't know if anyone else has said this - that's crap. Your parents have no right to enforce a religion on you...

did I say it was right?
however, there was no going against my parents, if I didn't do as I was told, I would have been beaten.
I don't know how well the OP gets on with his parents, but I lived in fear of mine. Under their roof it was their rules, end of story. On some issues parents will not have their minds changed, in my case it was easier to go along with it then confront them.

Orion

Beruthiel wrote:

did I say it was right?
however, there was no going against my parents, if I didn't do as I was told, I would have been beaten.
I don't know how well the OP gets on with his parents, but I lived in fear of mine. Under their roof it was their rules, end of story. On some issues parents will not have their minds changed, in my case it was easier to go along with it then confront them.

I didn't say you did

I went through the same thing until my parents realised that I just treated it as an extra hours sleep on a Sunday. Now 20 years on it's started again - they're really pissed that my twins haven't been baptised

Hermione*

To the OP, I'd say it's an hour a week. Presumably your parents do a lot for you, so to give them an hour in return isn't that much. If you don't believe, just use the time to reflect or meditate.

My dad has always said if he'd had his way, he'd have let his children find religion when they were old enough. But it was very important to both of his wives that their children be brought up in the Catholic religion, so he accepted that. Having said that, I don't think any of my siblings or I ever had an argument with my parents about religion or religious practice.

coffee_cake

I stopped going to mass at 12 or 13, when I took another look at religion in general and realised I didn't believe in christianity anymore. My mother wasn't christian - I was brought up that way at the insistence of my grandparents. My grandmother still brings it up once in a while but has mostly accepted that's how things are.

As for having kids, I wouldn't force any religion on them, let them find their own when they can think for themselves.
To the OP it's unfair but that's how it is, unfortunately.

wingnut

I would question the mentality of parents that force their children to go to mass. I think it is a scandal that children are indoctrinated at such a young age and told what the must believe, rather than being guided into finding their own path. I think at 14 this person is much more mature than his parents could possbily be. Why should people 'just go along' with it:

Germany, 1934:
Son: "Daddy I don't want to go the Nurenburg Rally, I don't belive Adolf Hitler is der fuhrer".
Father: "He is der fuhrer, It is what everyone else believes so you must believe it too. Now go to the Nurenburg rally and listen to him or you are grounded".

Untense

deltablaze wrote:

my mum WANTS me to believe in god, and just gets angry if I don't agree with church opinions and stuff.

Have you asked her why she gets angry?

Keep in mind that your mother is just doing her best. There's no clear guide to parenting and sometimes they get it wrong.

Do your best to keep a cool head, if she starts to get mad you have to be the level headed one.
Stay calm and it will help to make your point; that you're objections are clear and rational and that your protests are not simply a hot headed attempt to 'rebel' against your mother.

And best of luck with your protest should you decide to go ahead!

6th

Hermione* wrote:

To the OP, I'd say it's an hour a week. Presumably your parents do a lot for you, so to give them an hour in return isn't that much. If you don't believe, just use the time to reflect or meditate......

Well said, go and use the quiet time. Make the compromise that you'll go but not receive communion.

I had my daughter Baptised. She's nearly 2 and hasnt been to mass since. I do intend on bringing her once she is capible of sitting there and not getting too bored aand making a fuss. I have strong religious beliefs which dont fit into any one church but i do think being raised ina faith gives u a basis for making future decisions urself.

Tar.Aldarion

Beruthiel wrote:

agnostic actually.
and I never brought my daughter to mass, she did her communion thingie though, she was seven and needed to be the same as all the rest of the class, so at that stage she asked to see the inside of a church, once was enough for her apparently.... now, she is also an agnostic

Oh right, it just sounded from your post that when she said she didn't want to go you were making her anyway.

ferdi

Hermione* wrote:

To the OP, I'd say it's an hour a week. Presumably your parents do a lot for you, so to give them an hour in return isn't that much

that is not the point, this is an unfair argument. it is his parents duty to look after him, by your logic if the OP stops going to mass it would be fair enough for his parents to abandon him on the streets. Persumably his parents want him to go to mass because the believe in it, not just to keep themselves happy.going to mass to pander to his parents whims is helping nobody.
while you are unable to think fully for yourself, your parents have a duty to see to your moral up-bringing (including going to mass or whatever).
but once you find your sense of self and start analysing the world for yourself, i think a parents roll in this regard must change to allow the childs own mind and ideas to grow.

DarkJager

OP, I can fully understand your frustration at this. I believe you should be allowed to make any decisions regarding religion when you feel like it. When we are christened at birth it is almost robbing us of our freedom, confining us to follow the religion of our parents and peers regardless of how we feel about it.

Religion is not something that should be forced on anyone. It all comes down to what you believe and how you feel about what you are being told. You are only 14 but you have every right to do what you want in this situation. Christians say their god is everywhere, so why can't you talk to him that way? Why must you waste an hour of your weekend, kneeling on cold ground to worship him?

Crash

OP: if its any use, you can always try the approach i used. I would be agnostic these days but for a good few years after i left the catholic faith i was devoutly atheist. my issue with going to mass wasnt so much the time that it took, but i have a real thing about personal belief - i.e. no one has the right to tread or damage your own personal belief. therefore i felt it was wrong of me to take communion when i didn't believe as essentially it is a lack of respect for everyone elses faith. gradually i expanded that to most of mass.

the good side effect is now that no matter what place of worship i end up in - Synagogue, mosque, church - i'm probably the most defferent person in relation to respect for the place as anyone can be

also coming at it from that side shows your parents a mature side they really probably dont expect, if they're forcing you like that. just a thought...

Hermione*

ferdi wrote:

that is not the point, this is an unfair argument. it is his parents duty to look after him, by your logic if the OP stops going to mass it would be fair enough for his parents to abandon him on the streets. Persumably his parents want him to go to mass because the believe in it, not just to keep themselves happy.going to mass to pander to his parents whims is helping nobody.
while you are unable to think fully for yourself, your parents have a duty to see to your moral up-bringing (including going to mass or whatever).
but once you find your sense of self and start analysing the world for yourself, i think a parents roll in this regard must change to allow the childs own mind and ideas to grow.

I didn't say that, my intention was to say that he could see the hour as a way of showing his parents that he appreciates what they do for him. Yes, his parents have a duty to care for him, but it would be my belief that a child has a duty to appreciate what is done for him. His parents believe in Mass, so they go. They presumably want him to go because they think it's good for him. He's 14; I'd imagine they're not asking him to receive Communion, just attend. Yes, at some point, a child decides for themselves but for me, that'd be when they're about sixteen. If nothing else, it's a family event. He could look at it as one of the few times in the week he does something with his parents. For me anyway, I acknowledge that my aprents have made many sacrifices for me, if they asked me to do something for them for an hour I would. I'm an adult, but I'd feel they deserved that consideration from me. That's my take on it.

Blub2k4

deltablaze wrote:

Whenever I mention that I don't believe in God my mum gets real ticked off and starts yelling at me, which I think is unjust seeing as I'm only being honest.

Next time she does that remind her of how Christian it is to shout at someone and not listen to anothers point of view.

Petty points scoring really but satisfying in the heat of the moment

<edit> then you can tell her that Krishna doesn't like it either :P

Conar

Hermione* wrote:

But it was very important to both of his wives that their children be brought up in the Catholic religion, so he accepted that.

Clasic Catholicism. Sorry Hermione, don't mean to slag but you've got to see the funny side of that. Someones 2nd wife being very catholic and wanting their step children to go to church! Brilliant!

OK, so here's what you need to do!
You need to start using christianity to wreck your parents heads, mightn't resolve anything but at least you get to wreck their heads along the way.
Do things like tell them that you can't go to the supermarket because you had impure thoughts about a girl and need to go to confession.
Invite tramps in and wash their feet.
All that kinda lark.

ferdi

Hermione* wrote:

a way of showing his parents that he appreciates what they do for him. Yes, his parents have a duty to care for him, but it would be my belief that a child has a duty to appreciate what is done for him..

i dont think attending a religious ritual you dont believe in is an approriate sign of gratitude to show your parents for doing their job, but i take your point.

Hermione* wrote:

Yes, at some point, a child decides for themselves but for me, that'd be when they're about sixteen.

who decided that 16 is the right age? we all grow up at different speeds, its up to his parents to recognise that their child is self aware and no longer feels happy participating in this witch craft.

Hermione*

Conar wrote:

Clasic Catholicism. Sorry Hermione, don't mean to slag but you've got to see the funny side of that. Someones 2nd wife being very catholic and wanting their step children to go to church! Brilliant!

Yeah, when I wrote that I was trying to think of a better way of putting it and failed. :rolleyes: Didn't want to be getting into my family history. But Dad's first wife died. So my mum's his second wife. Actually some of my older siblings might be even more religious than my mum tbh.