"Southern" Ireland... do you mean 'Ireland'?

Ste05

Alun wrote: »

Indeed, and from what I can tell most Irish people's knowledge of the rest of English history is about on a par with most English people's knowledge of Irish history, i.e. pretty poor.

Certainly mine is anyway. All I have with regard to History education is Junior cert and what I've picked up over the years. And bits and pieces I picked about the history with regard to Law in college, i.e. our whole Legal system is based on the English system and we still have some English Land laws that date back to the 1600's on our statute books. I'm pretty sure it's showing in my posts here... ahh the great unwashed it's good to be apart of them.

Alun wrote: »

Me too, but then I think you could say that about the history being taught pretty much anywhere in the world's schools.

Again i'd agree, IMO all history is taught from a certain perspective... as they say the winner gets to write the history books. But I'm sure the loosers have their own versions that are handed down.

CDfm

Alun wrote: »

most English people's knowledge of Irish history, i.e. pretty poor.

Its very simple -the lovely peace loving Irish fellahs were cruelly treated and brutally murdered by the bloodlust of their English neighbours.

The British are still in denial.

asdasd

In relation to Cromwell and the English Civil war, I thought by the time Cromwell came over here, the Civil war was over and he had won??

he hadnt won because he hadnt won in Ireland. Even if this was pre-United Kingdom, the King was king of Ireland, Scotland and England, so the civil war really continued until the Realm was subdued.

Penal laws are important because a lot of American plantations came from people leaving because of Church of England religious intolerance of sects, and the Battle of the Boyne was the end of a major European wide war and conflict.

i dont get the "We are small, they are large argument" either. Nobody would be defending on these if a US poster didnot know **** about Canada, and thought is was part of the US.

asdasd

most Irish people's knowledge of the rest of English history is about on a par with most English people

Cant speak for most people but i did the English kings in Junior Cert. Since they were Kings of Ireland too this would make sense.

ashyle

History is written by the victors. The views in the books are bound to be biased, its a British book!

I remember being in Italy ages ago and people my age asking my what it was like being in a warzone with the IRA and all this stuff.. I was like em I'm from Dublin... there's dopes everywhere

Irish history is so complex even I get confused sometimes, and I studied it

potayto

I live in England. My flatmate thought Ireland was part of the UK. She got an A in A-level geography.

A lot of people here don't think Ireland is a different country. They just think it's like Wales. Has it's own language and culture and stuff but is essentially part of the UK. The sad thing is I've given up correcting them.

Alun

potayto wrote: »

A lot of people here don't think Ireland is a different country. They just think it's like Wales. Has it's own language and culture and stuff but is essentially part of the UK. The sad thing is I've given up correcting them.

Many Irish people also use "English" and "British" interchangeably, such as when referring to the non-existent "English army" for example. I also know many people who think Holyhead is in England as well. It cuts both ways.

Ste05

asdasd wrote: »

he hadnt won because he hadnt won in Ireland. Even if this was pre-United Kingdom, the King was king of Ireland, Scotland and England, so the civil war really continued until the Realm was subdued.

So basically it's from a completely different perspective, i.e. Cromwell conquering the entire United Kingdom, i.e. Ireland as a part of that, and therefore how he won the Civil war, and whereas we teach it from a completely different viewpoint, i.e. the atrocities he perpetrated over here on us. No wonder they view him as one of the greatest ever Britons and we view him as one of the worst ever.

asdasd wrote: »

Penal laws are important because a lot of American plantations came from people leaving because of Church of England religious intolerance of sects, and the Battle of the Boyne was the end of a major European wide war and conflict.

Again, not really the same perspective, the tail end of a War, I doubt it had quite the same effect as the landings of Normandy or the nuclear bombing of Japan? I doubt the Battle of the Boyne was the deciding factor in this European wide war.

asdasd wrote: »

i dont get the "We are small, they are large argument" either. Nobody would be defending on these if a US poster didnot know **** about Canada, and thought is was part of the US.

Emm that's just ignorance, if someone from America thought Canada was apart of the US, then LOL, completely different argument, I'm certainly not defending anyone that is so ignorant that they think Southern Ireland (:p) is still a part of the UK, after all as everyone has been saying, it's called The United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland. If they don't even know the proper name of their own country, then that's just sad.

The we're small and they're big argument, is also something you seem to be twisting, it's about significance in the shaping and history of the World, Rome is small, but what the Romans did and how they shaped the World needs to be learnt by everyone really, similarly with all the great empires of the past, like it or not, the UK was a huge world power back in the day. Ireland's significance on the World stage isn't nearly as important as we would like to think, we are great for emigrating to America and settling there and helping to build New York following on from the Potato Blight, and obviously US people would therefore know a bit about that famine. Again it's about perspective. Similarly UK learn about how we affected them, not how they affected us. Again perspective. If we didn't really affect somewhere or a people, why do we think they should know all about us?? Again it's just ego.

The UK has a huge history and was HIGHLY influential on the history of the World, many of the Worlds legal systems are based on Englands, they had colonies all over the World, unfortunately, we didn't.

And finally if a US person came on here and didn't know much about the history of Canada, would it really be all that bad, why would US citizens need to learn the in depth history of Canada, apart from how it affected their own history?? And that's my whole point.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

The Swedes send over a Christmas tree to the British which is put in Trafalgar Square every year as a thank you for their support during WWII.

The tree is given by the people of Norway, Sweden was neutral in WWII.

CDfm

Deleted User wrote: »

The tree is given by the people of Norway, Sweden was neutral in WWII.

can we still send the spuds?

Latchy

Ste05 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've just shown my ignorance on the subject above, but I really think some Irish are just far to egotistical about our own importance in World history. It's highly important to us the strife that went on here, but just like the examples I gave earlier in relation to how they affect us, is our history really that important to others?

I agree

Even at simplistic level it's confusing . When Dana from Londonderry NI won the euro song contest she was representing IRELAND

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

latchyco wrote: »

I agree

Even at simplistic level it's confusing . When Dana from Londonderry NI won the euro song contest she was representing IRELAND

Oh, well that clinches it then. Why the hell didn't you say that 192 posts ago ?

Latchy

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Oh, well that clinches it then. Why the hell didn't you say that 192 posts ago ?

My most inspirational moements seem to come days after the horse has bolted .........just before i nod off

asdasd

My most inspirational moements seem to come days after the horse has bolted .........just before i nod off

so it took you days to come up with what the stupidest post on the entire thread?

giggsy664

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't see what the big deal is actually. Often I hear Ireland as being described as the South or the North. Irish people do this aswell. I certainly do.

I'm Irish and I live in the Republic of Ireland. I do live in Cork, so southern Ireland isn't going to grind my gears at all.



So you'd prefer to see Irish History dwell on the Irish Noble families that helped the English to settle here.... The Irish themselves did much to help the English take this country from our ancestors.

Its so easy to pass all the blame to England, and ignore our own history in letting this happen.



But every country does this.

Have you ever read in depth about what happened in WW2? We hear loads about the atrocities the Germans did, but its rare we hear about Allied Sailors gunning down drowning German Sailors, or the shooting of prisoners after Normandy, or the rapes and Mass graves the Russians did in their march on Berlin...........

Its the same with Ireland. We're taught about the famine, but no effort is made to point out how we could have avoided it.... We're taught about our glorious failures with rebellions, but we don't really teach what rebels did to loyalist families, or the acts against those who sided with the crown.....

I've lost count of the number of times I've read something that either counters what I was taught in school, or wasn't even mentioned at all.

"One always speaks of dying for ones country, but never of killing for ones country"

Latchy

asdasd wrote: »

so it took you days to come up with what the stupidest post on the entire thread?

No dude even the most serious topic threads will have a little light humor thrown in which is all it was ,nothing morer nothing less ...Gedddit ...notice the smiley ????? ???? ( you will in time ) but if you want to see my more serious ( but not to serious posts on this subject ) scroll back a bit and see .

Oh wait you probably have :rolleyes:

I really think people here have missed the point!
Foreigners have different names for countries, regions etc

60 odd Million in Britain (and many others around the world) call this "southern Ireland", get over it - it's not important!

When was the last time you referred to Germany as Doishlant (rough pronunciation) or Poland as Ploska and so on
Another classic example is Türkiye (Turkey), the Turks don't like their country being associated with a Christmas dinner!


You (or your leaders) can dictate how you name your own country -BUT! you can't dictate how foreigners name it!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

giggsy664 wrote: »

"One always speaks of dying for ones country, but never of killing for ones country"

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for..."

giggsy664

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for..."

Ah touché, Mon ami

CDfm

micmclo wrote: »

Sure why would they, as they learn about every other country in the Empire "where the Sun never sets"

the sun never sets in Ireland - they even robbed that phrase from us:mad:

Latchy

Have people ever thought that if Ireland and the UK had being joined at the hips with the rest of mainland europe our history would have being re written again and Hitler and co would have made a more serious attempt at invading both islands. Assuming he did invade and millions more ,both irish and british were killed defeating him ,we to would have had adopted an anti german stance .The point is we are two islands and if we had being physicaly joined up by land then who knows what might have occured .Perhaps we would have being invaded by some other european races and not just the English . We are lucky in that respect that unlike the rest of europe during both major world wars , we werent invaded and killed in our millions .The benifits of being island races .

edit-although the vikings and danes got in there before the Normans a few centurys previously .

Hobbes

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

I had the honour of reading some history books, British curriculum history books no less.. still used in England today.

You will find all countries do this. I did schooling in England and Ireland when I was a kid. In England you were taught how the Irish were poor people who didn't want to better themselves when the British wanted to help them.

On the Irish perspective you learnt that English people were thieves and animals for total disregard for human life.

Neither history class was non-biased.

Latchy

And we still revert to sterotype .

Fratton Fred

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

I had the honour of reading some history books, British curriculum history books no less.. still used in England today.

The Brits in school are taught about "Irish" history in a very different way than we are, as I discovered. I put 'Irish' in quotes because it is taught as "other history of the British isles".

Irish history in the English curriculum is extremely scarce, and any mention of the island of Ireland refers to mainly Northern Ireland and the IRA terrorists killing the innocent British protestants - the rightful British landowners in Ireland who were “discriminated against” and "disrespected by the Catholics".

Ireland (as we know it) is referred to as "Southern" Ireland only, which is a part the British Isles (pictures showing Ireland and Britain with "BRITISH ISLES" plastered all over Ireland - very misleading me thinks. This is why Brits ask me if I’m “southern Irish”. I say “No, I’m not from Cork, I’m from Dublin, I’m Irish….”

According to this book, the problems in N.I are due to the... “long established British protestants” and “the Catholic differences that opposed them and wanted to invade the protestant, British land”. Also, some vague mention of England granting "Southern Ireland" some sort of limited control over “some southern areas’.

OK, let’s pretend that I'm a British kid learning history in Britain. As far as I'm concerned, the island of Ireland belongs to the UK, all the people from Ireland were originally British, and the 'troubles' on that little island are due to the minority Catholic 'backward' people, and also the IRA terrorists. It’s these pesky ‘Irish’ people that became greedy and wanted the land in Ireland for themselves.

I AM TELLING YOU NOW – I have lived and worked in the UK for 3 years – This is what the majority of English people think.

You’d be surprised at how many think that the whole Island of Ireland is ruled by London and that the Irish people are of royal blood and that the Union Jack represents the two islands. I pity these people, I pity the fact that they have been fed bull**** for most of there lives.

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history? The Germans are taught EVERYTHING about their history - I respect the Germans in that they know the TRUTH about their country’s history. I also respect the Dutch because they are taught MORE about Irish history than the Brits– I cannot count the amount of times the Dutch have apologised for mistaking me as British!

Some 'facts' from British education:

"The Gaelic language comes from Scotland. All music, language and culture originated from British Scotland ....... The Southern Irish still use old Scottish Gaelic placenames on their road signs, they cling to their links with the other British languages."

Wrong. Irish comes from Ireland. The Scottish language comes from Irish. The Scots came from Ireland!

That surprises me. that is certainly not how i was taught history (Although it was rather a long time ago that i went to school). In light of todays education system being run by leftie pc freaks, I am surprised they got it so wrong.

Any chance you could provide the name of the book?

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

Its the same with Ireland. We're taught about the famine, but no effort is made to point out how we could have avoided it.... We're taught about our glorious failures with rebellions, but we don't really teach what rebels did to loyalist families, or the acts against those who sided with the crown.....

I've lost count of the number of times I've read something that either counters what I was taught in school, or wasn't even mentioned at all.

The history that I was taught (I was born mid 80s) was hardly concise. History that is taught compulsarily will never be concise. I do think it should be unbiased and at least cover all the main points and give students an idea of what they'll learn should they continue on with History in Leaving Cert or College.

giggsy664 wrote: »

"One always speaks of dying for ones country, but never of killing for ones country"

Just wondering, who said that ?

Deleted User wrote: »

I really think people here have missed the point!
Foreigners have different names for countries, regions etc

60 odd Million in Britain (and many others around the world) call this "southern Ireland", get over it - it's not important!

When was the last time you referred to Germany as Doishlant (rough pronunciation) or Poland as Ploska and so on
Another classic example is Türkiye (Turkey), the Turks don't like their country being associated with a Christmas dinner!

I think this is a bit more important than calling a country by it's native language name. This is like saying Georgia is just a small off shoot of Russia rather than it's own country.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That surprises me. that is certainly not how i was taught history (Although it was rather a long time ago that i went to school). In light of todays education system being run by leftie pc freaks, I am surprised they got it so wrong.

Any chance you could provide the name of the book?

Any chance you could elaborate on "leftie pc freaks" ?

Alun wrote: »

Many Irish people also use "English" and "British" interchangeably, such as when referring to the non-existent "English army" for example. I also know many people who think Holyhead is in England as well. It cuts both ways.

This is a very good point. My (Scottish) girlfriend lives in Glasgow, Scotland and my mother, brother, grandmother etc. all seem to be unable to differentiate Scotland from the England/Britian/UK. They more or less see the UK as synonymous with England -which it more or less is but they don't understand the differences. Although, no one would say that Scotland is "northern England/Britain/United Kingdom" would they ? or that Wales is "southwest England/Britain/United Kingdom" .

alan dunne 27

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

I think this is a bit more important than calling a country by it's native language name. This is like saying Georgia is just a small off shoot of Russia rather than it's own country.

You missed my last comment, which is the main point.

Deleted User wrote: »

You (or your leaders) can dictate how you name your own country -BUT! you can't dictate how foreigners name it!

If for example an African country for some strange reason, decided to call Ireland "Arswipe" which may mean "small Island" in their language, what are you going to do?

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Although, no one would say that Scotland is "northern England/Britain/United Kingdom" would they ? or that Wales is "southwest England/Britain/United Kingdom" .

No, the vast majority of English people know that Wales and Scotland are different countries, and would say Wales or Scotland.
They may not be able to name many of the counties, but then again they couldn't name all the english counties either.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

No, the vast majority of English people know that Wales and Scotland are different countries, and would say Wales or Scotland.
They may not be able to name many of the counties, but then again they couldn't name all the english counties either.

I meant no Irish person would say that Scotland is "Northern Britain". I wouldn't be too quick to make the generalisation that all English people understand that Wales and Scotland are their own countries. You'd be surprised what the readers of the Daily Mail believe. There's a difference between understanding the differences between England, Scotland and Wales and being able to name counties. Can you name off all 32 counties or Irelands Northern and Republic without looking it up ?

Anyway, Scotland is more it's own country than Wales. Scotland has it's own public bodies such as the NHS, it's own parliment, even it's own laws (although they're not really recognized by the English/UK government). The English/UK government can choose not to recognize the Scottish parliment whenver it wants and can dissolve it at any time and regain full power, what they essentially have is the home rule that Ireland was going to have before we became a Republic. Wales has a sort of Northern Ireland style assembly, they're not very powerful.

I've been to many English cities and when I went to Cardiff I didn't feel the difference, it was very similar to Bristol which is just across the River Severn. Although, that was it's main city, if you travel outside of Cardiff you'll find cultural differences. England has raped and pillaged Wales for centuries, there's an untold story there that I don't think has made it outside Wales. Scotland has done a fairly decent job of distancing itself from England, there's even a movement to have Scotland removed from the United Kingdom.

twinytwo

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

I meant no Irish person would say that Scotland is "Northern Britain". I wouldn't be too quick to make the generalisation that all English people understand that Wales and Scotland are their own countries. You'd be surprised what the readers of the Daily Mail believe. There's a difference between understanding the differences between England, Scotland and Wales and being able to name counties. Can you name off all 32 counties or Irelands Northern and Republic without looking it up ?

Anyway, Scotland is more it's own country than Wales. Scotland has it's own public bodies such as the NHS, it's own parliment, even it's own laws (although they're not really recognized by the English/UK government). The English/UK government can choose not to recognize the Scottish parliment whenver it wants and can dissolve it at any time and regain full power, what they essentially have is the home rule that Ireland was going to have before we became a Republic. Wales has a sort of Northern Ireland style assembly, they're not very powerful.

I've been to many English cities and when I went to Cardiff I didn't feel the difference, it was very similar to Bristol which is just across the River Severn. Although, that was it's main city, if you travel outside of Cardiff you'll find cultural differences. England has raped and pillaged Wales for centuries, there's an untold story there that I don't think has made it outside Wales. Scotland has done a fairly decent job of distancing itself from England, there's even a movement to have Scotland removed from the United Kingdom.

i can

Fratton Fred

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Any chance you could elaborate on "leftie pc freaks" ?

Politically correct socialists. When I was at School the teachers took great delight in telling you all about Britains past and how nasty imperial Britian had corrupted the world.

That is why I am surprised English schools are using books which are so far off the mark.

I'm also very surprised people call Ireland southern Ireland, I thought it was only americans that did that.

Fratton Fred

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Anyway, Scotland is more it's own country than Wales. Scotland has it's own public bodies such as the NHS, it's own parliment, even it's own laws (although they're not really recognized by the English/UK government). The English/UK government can choose not to recognize the Scottish parliment whenver it wants and can dissolve it at any time and regain full power, what they essentially have is the home rule that Ireland was going to have before we became a Republic. Wales has a sort of Northern Ireland style assembly, they're not very powerful.

I've been to many English cities and when I went to Cardiff I didn't feel the difference, it was very similar to Bristol which is just across the River Severn. Although, that was it's main city, if you travel outside of Cardiff you'll find cultural differences. England has raped and pillaged Wales for centuries, there's an untold story there that I don't think has made it outside Wales. Scotland has done a fairly decent job of distancing itself from England, there's even a movement to have Scotland removed from the United Kingdom.

Could you tell me where the English parliament is? while you're at it, could you tell me what nationality Gordon Browne is?

What did England rape and pillage in Wlaes, there wasn't much left after the irish had finished;)

Your view on UK history is very err, unbalanced.