"Southern" Ireland... do you mean 'Ireland'?

JaysusMacfeck

I had the honour of reading some history books, British curriculum history books no less.. still used in England today.

The Brits in school are taught about "Irish" history in a very different way than we are, as I discovered. I put 'Irish' in quotes because it is taught as "other history of the British isles".

Irish history in the English curriculum is extremely scarce, and any mention of the island of Ireland refers to mainly Northern Ireland and the IRA terrorists killing the innocent British protestants - the rightful British landowners in Ireland who were “discriminated against” and "disrespected by the Catholics".

Ireland (as we know it) is referred to as "Southern" Ireland only, which is a part the British Isles (pictures showing Ireland and Britain with "BRITISH ISLES" plastered all over Ireland - very misleading me thinks. This is why Brits ask me if I’m “southern Irish”. I say “No, I’m not from Cork, I’m from Dublin, I’m Irish….”

According to this book, the problems in N.I are due to the... “long established British protestants” and “the Catholic differences that opposed them and wanted to invade the protestant, British land”. Also, some vague mention of England granting "Southern Ireland" some sort of limited control over “some southern areas’.

OK, let’s pretend that I'm a British kid learning history in Britain. As far as I'm concerned, the island of Ireland belongs to the UK, all the people from Ireland were originally British, and the 'troubles' on that little island are due to the minority Catholic 'backward' people, and also the IRA terrorists. It’s these pesky ‘Irish’ people that became greedy and wanted the land in Ireland for themselves.

I AM TELLING YOU NOW – I have lived and worked in the UK for 3 years – This is what the majority of English people think.

You’d be surprised at how many think that the whole Island of Ireland is ruled by London and that the Irish people are of royal blood and that the Union Jack represents the two islands. I pity these people, I pity the fact that they have been fed bull**** for most of there lives.

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history? The Germans are taught EVERYTHING about their history - I respect the Germans in that they know the TRUTH about their country’s history. I also respect the Dutch because they are taught MORE about Irish history than the Brits– I cannot count the amount of times the Dutch have apologised for mistaking me as British!

Some 'facts' from British education:

"The Gaelic language comes from Scotland. All music, language and culture originated from British Scotland ....... The Southern Irish still use old Scottish Gaelic placenames on their road signs, they cling to their links with the other British languages."

Wrong. Irish comes from Ireland. The Scottish language comes from Irish. The Scots came from Ireland!

redmagic

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history?

all your information was enlightening but not surprising.
the only answer (at this moment) that comes to mind for the above question is: the English are as arrogant as ever.
As i've come to understand that history is written by the conquerors, that my country was taken from its rightful people by the greedy British, just as they took land from others, I have become more and more angry at them. I understand that it was not the fault of the British today, however, they are the ones who should be fessing up and teaching the true history of the the Republic of Ireland and the UK.

Victor

And on the flip side, one of my teachers had the class chanting anti-English slogans.

Our man in Havana

Southern Ireland is one of the most annoying phrases in the english langauage. I get so annoyed when i see it scrawled on letters I receive from the UK. Would it be too much to put Republic of Ireland or simply Ireland on them?

nuttz

Your point?

nothing new there boyo.

move on...

as for this :"We're still Britain's bitch it seems."
No we are not, …. basis for the argument please?

If the majority of the British public want to delude themselves with the above rant so what, that doesn’t make us their bitch to use your terminology.

At this stage, I think most people in the UK have the common sense to see past what the British Empire was.

JaysusMacfeck

nuttz wrote:

Your point?

My point? Didn't you read my post? :eek:

Banphrionsa

What might also be of interest are Irish legends that predate the British occupation hundreds of years ago. Legends contribute to culture and a sense of identity. For example, the romantic legend of Diarmiud and Grainne. The Kingdom of Tara was said to be south of the River Shannon, and where this legend begins, although the beds of Diarmiud and Grainne are said to be throughout rural Ireland.

nuttz

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

My point? Didn't you read my post? :eek:

I have also lived and worked in the UK for 3 years+ and disagree. It's your opinion, not fact. You over-exaggerate and sensationalise worse than your average tabloid.

So what if English people are taught the above, the people I knew over there had the common sense to see past all that, and would nearly go so far as to say that some were probably ashamed of colonisation and their history, full stop.

nuttz

Banphrionsa wrote:

Legends contribute to culture and a sense of identity. For example, the romantic legend of Diarmiud and Grainne.

I’m not sure what to say to that , legends do contribute to culture and a sense of national identity to an extent. But you raise a valid point so far as to say that our identity lies in our Celtic roots, but also that major parts of our culture do not lie within one country, i.e. Scots Gaelic and Gaelige are Celtic languages and are not specific to any one country, same as the welsh language being spoken in Patagonia.

Hobbes

Did some of my early years schooling in England and that is pretty much correct in regards to Irish history (if it was touched on at all).

Although Irish history in classes is pretty much as bad. Glosses over the people killed by the IRA.

WhiteWashMan

the phrase 'southern ireland' is descriptive, rather than a political entity.

besides, most english people i know dont really give a monkeys about ireland in the same way that most irish people i know dont give a monkeys about the UK.

and so what if many british people think what you have written. so what?
as someone asked, whats your point?

and by the way, the scottish people didnt ceom from ireland. i think you will find that people made their way across landbridge from the continent through the uk and into ireland.
at what point can we claim that these scottish people were once 'irish'? sure if this was the case, the english have a pretty good argument to say that the irish people came from them?

nuttz

thank you WWM

Dyr

nuttz wrote:

I have also lived and worked in the UK for 3 years+ and disagree. It's your opinion, not fact. You over-exaggerate and sensationalise worse than your average tabloid.

So what if English people are taught the above, the people I knew over there had the common sense to see past all that, and would nearly go so far as to say that some were probably ashamed of colonisation and their history, full stop.

thats, like, you opinion, not fact lol

When englsih types use southern ireland to me, i just look confused and say "ehh no I live on the east coast not in the south". In fairness, most of those fiendish english types use the term simply becaused their conditioned to do so, rather than out of any malice

nuttz

Bambi wrote:

thats, like, you opinion, not fact lol

I wasn't stating fact or making a case that what I said was factual. The initial poster implied that all he said was gospel, I disputed that. So like most other posts on this website my posts could/should be interpreted as opinion.

Macha

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history? The Germans are taught EVERYTHING about their history - I respect the Germans in that they know the TRUTH about their country’s history. I also respect the Dutch because they are taught MORE about Irish history than the Brits– I cannot count the amount of times the Dutch have apologised for mistaking me as British!

I know that in France, they're pretty bad at teaching kids about WW2. The glaring but painful fact that France collaborated with the Nazi's is skimmed over, while the Resistance is blown way out of proportion.

National pride can be a dangerous thing, especially when the truth gets covered up.

And nuttz, I do think what people in the UK think matters. Like it or not, the UK still is a huge influence in Ireland, culturally, economically (not so much now, thanks to the EU), etc. Not everyone is balanced enough to see that what they're being taught is biased, perhaps because they are children when this is taught to them. The people you met in the UK may very well realise this, but maybe you were moving in Irish cirlcles? I mean, I could say the same thing, but I'd be referring to my relatives who live over there (who obviously are aware of the facts of Irish history)

nuttz

taconnol wrote:

And nuttz, I do think what people in the UK think matters. Like it or not, the UK still is a huge influence in Ireland, culturally, economically (not so much now, thanks to the EU), etc. Not everyone is balanced enough to see that what they're being taught is biased, perhaps because they are children when this is taught to them. The people you met in the UK may very well realise this, but maybe you were moving in Irish cirlcles? I mean, I could say the same thing, but I'd be referring to my relatives who live over there (who obviously are aware of the facts of Irish history)

I never said that the opinions of people in the UK didn't matter, yes the UK has and is a good influence on us, as are we (the Irish State)on them.
True, not everyone is balanced enough to see that what they're being taught is biased. And no, I was in a very much non Irish circle of friends.

I think you missed the points of the previous posts.

Canis Lupus

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

What he said

Which books are these as a matter of interest?

Finally in this day and age who gives a ****? Anyone with a modicum of sense knows better or can't be arsed about the entire thing. Sure we're all friends now anyway

Boggle

Anyone with a modicum of sense knows better or can't be arsed about the entire thing

But how do you learn from the mistakes of your past if you just gloss them over?

And anyway - whats the point of history if your only gonna remember what suits??

englander

I am English and have been living in ireland for several years.

I was taught absolutely nothing of Irish history in school in England. (I do recall the famine was touched on for half a lesson)

Our history lessons consisted of more about the Romans and how they invaded us, Henry VIII and all his wives and different Kings/Queens of the past, The Vikings etc.

I wasn't even taught much about WWI or WWII.

Irish history is your history here.
To England, Irish history is a very small part of all the history relevant to England.

As someone said above (unfortunatley it is true) that a lot of people in England would not give a flying toss about Republic of Ireland or whats going on in Northern Ireland etc It is nothing to do with them.
(Like Celtic/Rangers games - very few people give a toss in England)


BTW - I have heard Irish people (including Mrs Englander (who happens to be Irish)) use the phrase 'Southern Ireland' before. Ususally in a conversation where I might ask whether the event took place in northern Ireland and they will come back with

"No, that was Southern Ireland"

or

"No that was in the South"

Maybe they are just dumbing it down for the uneducated Brit ?

I could rant (for a very long time) about Irish ignorance towards England that I have come across in Ireland, but I wont.

If you come across 'da Brits' saying something that you dont believe to be right, like 'Southern Ireland' why not see it as an opportunity to educate them rather than playing the daft arse like the OP, confusing people further and coming across like a tit.

Hobbes

Canis Lupus wrote:

Which books are these as a matter of interest?

School history books. As I recall Ireland was pretty much ignored when it came to British History, instead we were told of the Spinning Jenny, Industrial revolution, Victorian age (when England actually owned most of the world) and other wonders. But anywhere England got up to something nasty or asses handed to them is more or less glossed over.

But as I said revisionism is hardly localisaed to one country. Nearly every country does it.

Macha

nuttz wrote:

I never said that the opinions of people in the UK didn't matter, yes the UK has and is a good influence on us, as are we (the Irish State)on them.
True, not everyone is balanced enough to see that what they're being taught is biased. And no, I was in a very much non Irish circle of friends.

I think you missed the points of the previous posts.

Ur..no I didn't we're discussing biases in how history is taught in the UK and the effect it has on the opinions of those pupils. I got it

Oh and....

nuttz wrote:

If the majority of the British public want to delude themselves with the above rant so what

Yes you did say that you don't care if the UK have a history education that is biased against Ireland....

On a slight tangent (but still on topic, sort of), I went to Trinity and I remember one of the admin staff referring to Britain as the "main land". :eek:

Louisiana

WhiteWashMan wrote:

and by the way, the scottish people didnt ceom from ireland. i think you will find that people made their way across landbridge from the continent through the uk and into ireland.
at what point can we claim that these scottish people were once 'irish'? sure if this was the case, the english have a pretty good argument to say that the irish people came from them?

there were definetly Irish settlements in Scotland during the Early Medieval period, one major one being Dalriadh and the irish did bring the language. there were no blood baths in its making though.

Hobbs your right thats most countries like to put a slant on telling they're histories. your slant on 'when England actually owned most of the world' is a total indication that the proper teaching of history could make a big difference in how well cultures interact.

Sleepy

I don't see how we can complain given the republican biases in our own history books tbh.

fly_agaric

Hobbes wrote:

But as I said revisionism is hardly localisaed to one country. Nearly every country does it.

Yes - don't the Japanese for e.g. try and gloss over their disgusting wars of aggression and atrocities in Asia? Just a minor detail in the noble Japanese attempt to "liberate" (from the West) and then "civilise" (i.e. impose Japanese language + culture) the rest of the far east.
Failure to face up to the hard facts when educating your young people about their country's history is not a good thing IMO but neither is trying to make them feel burdened with guilt about things their forebears (maybe as close as grandparents for the Japanese say) did in the past.

Anyway - I don't see anything wrong with the phrase "Southern Ireland" or "the South" as used in conversation but addressing a letter there rather than to "Ireland" or "Republic of Ireland" would be a little bit dim.

lodgepole

englander wrote:

The stuff of reason...

Thank you.

Imagine the horror of a country not being taught another country's history in depth... Your average English person has no interest in Ireland, or Northern Ireland and why should they? And why should we care?

The term "the south" is used extensively. It's not an example of English ignorance anymore than calling the North "the north" is. It's just a reference.

Irish bias towards the English in the year 2006 far outweighs any that the English have towards us. I lived in a house in Canada with two English lads and by virtue of the fact that they celebrated St. Patricks day with us, we decided to celebrate in a similar fashion on St. George's Day. The abuse I got off some Irish people when I told them...

The war with England is over... Time to move on. The only people still causing problems on this island are the ones living here.

Slutmonkey57b

The content of Irish history books is at least as revisionist as British ones. And for the record, I don't recall being taught an awful lot about Irish history in history class either. In fact I don't recall being taught much of anything in school apart from preparing for exams. As for "British Isles", this is a phrase that refers to landmasses, not political entities, just like we refer to "the continent" instead of listing every country in the landmass of Europe. Its amazing to me, as englander said, that so many Irish people give out about "anti-Irish" bias in england, when in fact english people (rightly) couldn't care less about Ireland, and Irish people are so rabidly abusive towards the English.

WhiteWashMan

so should we give ireland back to england and tell them were sorry for making amess of the country?

rubadub

Bond-007 wrote:

I get so annoyed when i see it scrawled on letters I receive from the UK.

If you are replying to an english letter, put the address as southern scotland, or eastern wales. They may soon get the message.

Goodshape

"Southern Ireland" and even "Northern Ireland" both annoy me quite a bit. I'm from northern Donegal, so where does that fit in? Most "Northern Ireland" lies to the south east of me.

I usually just answer that I'm from the north of the country... if I feel the person deserves it I might add that its still the republic. It may not be politically correct (in the truest sense of the phrase) but I still like to think of this island as one country most of the time.

redmagic

I can't see what the big deal is actually. Often I hear Ireland as being described as the South or the North. Irish people do this aswell. I certainly do.

I'm Irish and I live in the Republic of Ireland. I do live in Cork, so southern Ireland isn't going to grind my gears at all.

redmagic wrote:

As i've come to understand that history is written by the conquerors, that my country was taken from its rightful people by the greedy British, just as they took land from others, I have become more and more angry at them. I understand that it was not the fault of the British today, however, they are the ones who should be fessing up and teaching the true history of the the Republic of Ireland and the UK

So you'd prefer to see Irish History dwell on the Irish Noble families that helped the English to settle here.... The Irish themselves did much to help the English take this country from our ancestors.

Its so easy to pass all the blame to England, and ignore our own history in letting this happen.

Boggle wrote:

Quote:
Anyone with a modicum of sense knows better or can't be arsed about the entire thing
But how do you learn from the mistakes of your past if you just gloss them over?

And anyway - whats the point of history if your only gonna remember what suits??

But every country does this.

Have you ever read in depth about what happened in WW2? We hear loads about the atrocities the Germans did, but its rare we hear about Allied Sailors gunning down drowning German Sailors, or the shooting of prisoners after Normandy, or the rapes and Mass graves the Russians did in their march on Berlin...........

Its the same with Ireland. We're taught about the famine, but no effort is made to point out how we could have avoided it.... We're taught about our glorious failures with rebellions, but we don't really teach what rebels did to loyalist families, or the acts against those who sided with the crown.....

I've lost count of the number of times I've read something that either counters what I was taught in school, or wasn't even mentioned at all.

R0ot

Well im from the north (geographicly) and i have to cross the border nearly everyday to go to uni in derry. No a common misconception is that its the City of Derry, this is untrue it is the City of Londonderry. But then people that know this make a further mistake by calling it County Londonderry which again is incorrect it is County Derry or Doire. Further more where i come from there is a butt load of resentment to the north (political) but some of this is playful between people. As in a few of my mates in uni joke about have i got electricity down there yet or are we still working on steam. But this is playful as already said.

In regards to the OP's post i never actually knew that they taught that kind of stuff in england but to say the least im not surprised. I have friends of many different religions and i even have a few mates that are in the orange order, but the strangest comment ive ever come across is "There are only 6 counties in ulster" ive never reacted stronger to something in my life, i actually got a lecturer of history to talk to the person in question and finally prove to them that ulster has 9 counties!

The person that i had to use this drastic measures on wouldn't believe a word i said about how ulster isnt 6 counties, i don't know if she was taught that in school or not but thats a disgrace!

fly_agaric

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

As for "British Isles", this is a phrase that refers to landmasses, not political entities, just like we refer to "the continent" instead of listing every country in the landmass of Europe.

In fairness, it could still be a politically loaded term if you want to worry about such things (personally I don't care!:D ).
I suppose you could say the "Irish Sea" balances things out a bit.

Looking over at Asia again (the Koreans and their former colonial masters):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute

sportswear

i hate england blah blah blah blah blah..................


BORING.

did it not occur to you that your own history books are biased???


Everyone falsifies history even if it is only his own personal history. Sometimes the falsification is deliberate, sometimes unconscious; but always the past is altered to suit the needs of the present

Peteee

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

Ireland (as we know it) is referred to as "Southern" Ireland only, which is a part the British Isles (pictures showing Ireland and Britain with "BRITISH ISLES" plastered all over Ireland - very misleading me thinks.

Thats because Ireland is part of the British Isles

Its a geographical not a political statement.

'The winners write the history books'

Always the case, a nations history books will almost always be biased in some form or another.

Ruu_Old

Alot of companies based in the UK (PC World from my experiences) go on about "southern ireland" when on customer support to them referring to the republic. Southern Ireland to me would be Cork and north of Ireland would be Derry.

latenia

It's interesting that people are making such a big deal about the name of this country as spoken by the British when they don't know it themselves. The name is Ireland; if you are speaking Irish it's Eire.

The Republic of Ireland is the name of our football team; this expression was devised by FIFA.

Hermione*

I worked for a company that did a lot of trade in Britain, and we'd get post from our British Bank of Ireland branch addressed to 'Dublin 18, Southern Ireland'! I can understaand the use of the term 'the south' in conversation, but on a postal address don't you go with the correct title of the country? Even Eire as a name has a greater claim to correctness than Southern Ireland!

The other thing that annoys me a LOT is when people use Ulster interchangably with Northern Ireland. Ulster is not Northern Ireland. My sister lives in Donegal, where would that put her? :rolleyes:

ek942

taconnol wrote:

Ur..no I didn't we're discussing biases in how history is taught in the UK and the effect it has on the opinions of those pupils. I got it

Oh and.... Yes you did say that you don't care if the UK have a history education that is biased against Ireland....

On a slight tangent (but still on topic, sort of), I went to Trinity and I remember one of the admin staff referring to Britain as the "main land". :eek:

On Bravo the other night 'I predict a riot' was about Norn Iron and the git presenting it kept referring to the 'main land'.From a British point of view it's correct.No matter what you think or say those 6 counties are a part of Britain now.

latenia

latenia wrote:

The Republic of Ireland is the name of our football team; this expression was devised by FIFA.

Somehow I doubt that.

The Republic of Ireland is what is on all our company stationary, . Its a geographical term. As distinct to the counties that are held by the British. And the republis has been around longer than our soccer team.... haha

Beer is Life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islands_of_the_North_Atlantic

Victor

Hermione* wrote:

The other thing that annoys me a LOT is when people use Ulster interchangably with Northern Ireland. Ulster is not Northern Ireland. My sister lives in Donegal, where would that put her? :rolleyes:

The North of Ireland.

dr zoidberg

Deleted User wrote:

Somehow I doubt that.

The Republic of Ireland is what is on all our company stationary, . Its a geographical term. As distinct to the counties that are held by the British. And the republis has been around longer than our soccer team.... haha

Although the country was declared a republic the official name remained Ireland or Éire in the constitution. The ROI thing was as a result of a dispute between the FAI and the Northern Irish FA (misleadingly called the Irish Football Association) who both wanted to be called Ireland in international games. Hence the fact that the Irish team is the only one in international football which requires the "republic" bit in its title.

fly_agaric

latenia wrote:

It's interesting that people are making such a big deal about the name of this country as spoken by the British when they don't know it themselves. The name is Ireland; if you are speaking Irish it's Eire.

The Republic of Ireland is the name of our football team; this expression was devised by FIFA.

Fascinating stuff...
And I thought this site was just for wasting time.:)

blu_sonic

I lived in London, I'm 22 and most of my friends over there were of a similar age so they were interested in the politics of ireland and were relitivly fresh from schooling, Ive only ever been wound up twice by their so called "igorance".

1. The famine, They were thought that it wasn't nothing to do with brittian and soley the fault of the Irish

2. Oliver Cromwell, That he had a right to kill/maim and murder whoever and whenever he saw fit, that the whole Drogheda thing was compleatly justified. That made me leave the conversation.

All in all they accept and understand Ireland. You must remember our view of england and how we view their history is most likely flawed too.

(sorry about the spelling Im knackered tired)

nlgbbbblth

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

I have lived and worked in the UK for 3 years

You obviously don't have a lot of time for the 'Brits'.

So why do you live and work there??????

blu_sonic

lol for a second there i though you ment me, needless to say i got a shock! i think in fairness to them the money is good and the lifestyle is handy, but i loved it there so i can't speak for them

jimmycrackcorm

R0ot wrote:

Well im from the north (geographicly) and i have to cross the border nearly everyday to go to uni in derry. No a common misconception is that its the City of Derry, this is untrue it is the City of Londonderry. But then people that know this make a further mistake by calling it County Londonderry which again is incorrect it is County Derry or Doire. Further more where i come from there is a butt load of resentment to the north (political) but some of this is playful between people. As in a few of my mates in uni joke about have i got electricity down there yet or are we still working on steam. But this is playful as already said.

In regards to the OP's post i never actually knew that they taught that kind of stuff in england but to say the least im not surprised. I have friends of many different religions and i even have a few mates that are in the orange order, but the strangest comment ive ever come across is "There are only 6 counties in ulster" ive never reacted stronger to something in my life, i actually got a lecturer of history to talk to the person in question and finally prove to them that ulster has 9 counties!

The person that i had to use this drastic measures on wouldn't believe a word i said about how ulster isnt 6 counties, i don't know if she was taught that in school or not but thats a disgrace!

I didn't know North Donegal is covered by Satnav otherwise how would you find your way to Derry when there are no signs to to Londonderry?
apparently there is a rule on NI television that it is addresses as Londonderry on thefirst mention and Derry subsequently.

redmagic

Hermione* wrote:

The other thing that annoys me a LOT is when people use Ulster interchangably with Northern Ireland. Ulster is not Northern Ireland. My sister lives in Donegal, where would that put her? :rolleyes:

Back in 1998, I toured Scotland, England, Wales, NI, and Eire with a popular tour company. During this tour the entire tour group was told that if your affiliation was English then you'd call NI Northern Ireland. But, if your affiliation was Irish, then you'd call NI Ulster. Can you see where some confusion might occur?

Macha

ek942 wrote:

On Bravo the other night 'I predict a riot' was about Norn Iron and the git presenting it kept referring to the 'main land'.From a British point of view it's correct.No matter what you think or say those 6 counties are a part of Britain now.

I accept that, but we weren't in Northern Ireland when the phrase was used and the admin person in question was from the Republic (well, she had a d4 accent).

I personally didn't mind, I found it more funny than offensive, but I do accept that for many people it is a sore subject. No doubt, even more so because the issue of Northern Ireland is still on going and there are a fair few people around both in the North and in Ireland that have been directly affected by the Troubles.

In the same way, I think people should be aware that it's a sensitive issue and so be careful with the terms that they use. Then again, maybe that's going over the top on the whole political correctness thing.

Hub

In all fairness, who cares what they're thought

flogen

Just to add my experience to it all, in my short time in England I've been asked was I from Southern Ireland countless times, and myself and a number of friends have been asked if Ireland was in Britain many, many times too.

I'm not sure if it's what they are (or are not) taught in school, but there is certainly a big misconception among many people. The term "British Isles", which includes RoI annoys me, but not very much... the apparent lack of knowledge about English history is what gets me though.