"Southern" Ireland... do you mean 'Ireland'?

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

On the point:

What defines english.

I know alot of people in my generation (in my 20's) who's parents went over to work in england, had a child while they were working over there and then came back.

So these people my age, were born in england to Irish parents and have lived in Ireland nearly their whole lives.

These people are really ashamed of being born in england. It's awful to see. I know one guy who when he told me he was born in england said 'don't tell anybody that'. They actually really hate the fact that they were born in england. Their own parents would say 'the blo*dy english' and they would say 'but we were born in england' and the parents would say 'that doesnt count'.
I know these people loathe that they were born in england. It made me think, Was it really fair for irish people to go to england, have a child and then bring them back to a country that detests the english. Some of these children would have had an english accent at the time, (I was in school with a good few) and i know they were mercilessly hounded into the ground about being english..

It really blurs the boundary of what english is, so many irish people went to england, how can irish people still hate the english.

In my experience, there are two basit types of Irish in England; those who integrate (my Mother for example) and those who find/create an Irish ghetto (my cousin).

Those that integrate, do far better than those that don't.

The ghetto livers, consider themselves outsiders and will often only socialise with other Irish, avoiding all contact with English people unless it's absolutly necessary. You often see the old wans in the Irish club bitterly complaining about their lives.

CDfm

Deleted User wrote: »

In my experience, there are two basit types of Irish in England; those who integrate (my Mother for example) and those who find/create an Irish ghetto (my cousin).

Those that integrate, do far better than those that don't.

The ghetto livers, consider themselves outsiders and will often only socialise with other Irish, avoiding all contact with English people unless it's absolutly necessary. You often see the old wans in the Irish club bitterly complaining about their lives.

Thats ok to a certain extent - there was a considerable amount of anti-Irish racism in the area I worked in -so maybe that influenced people to stick together.

I was integrated- but it still existed. I dont condone anti-English feelings -but I dont feel always inclined to condemn it either.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

Thats ok to a certain extent - there was a considerable amount of anti-Irish racism in the area I worked in -so maybe that influenced people to stick together.

I was integrated- but it still existed. I dont condone anti-English feelings -but I dont feel always inclined to condemn it either.

Sad fact is, is that ghettos usually increase the racism - no easy answer to that though.

Latchy

CDfm wrote: »

its a serious question -how do you define English - there seems to be doubt.

You could say the English are made up of a lot of differnet tribes from county to county, in the same way as the irish are. What ''Englishness'' and being English for many will be the old reliables such as the Queen ,cricket ,warm beer ,football , seaside holidays . But ' British' or ' English ' culture is seen by many English to have being eroded by the influx of many immigrants over the decades and the average English person will always view non whites and asians as foreign, regardless of how long they and their familes have resided in England .How English people in the main define their Englishness can be hard now unlike 40 years ago when like ireland , it was mainly populated by a white native born race which had a big Empire and say in world events .

Edit - The resident of Merseyside generaly speaking dont consider themselfs to have much in common with their southern brethren and same might be said of other regions north of the watford gap .their loyalty will be to their local community town village or city and that is were the football tribilism comes in .Some will see the football team as their main source of identity and it's hate equals hate for many on both sides .

Latchy

Deleted User wrote: »

In my experience, there are two basit types of Irish in England; those who integrate (my Mother for example) and those who find/create an Irish ghetto (my cousin).

Those that integrate, do far better than those that don't.

The ghetto livers, consider themselves outsiders and will often only socialise with other Irish, avoiding all contact with English people unless it's absolutly necessary. You often see the old wans in the Irish club bitterly complaining about their lives.

That is also my own expierence.I see it also , mainly in ' some' older ex pats who left ireland in 60s .They will moan about the english and englishness and my response is ' if I had spent so much time over here hating the place that much I would have gone home decades ago '. Sometimes it seems their grieviences have no basis at all and more annoyence at having to leave their own town, village or city all those years ago.Learing to intrergrate makes life that much easier and better ,for the individual imo .

Fratton Fred

CDfm wrote: »

Fratton Fred - the English give the Germans stick - news for you - the Germans have a car industry.
Political spin - what exactly - under British Direct Rule between 1840 to 1910 the Irish Population decreased from 8.? million to 3m. Where was the other 5m on holiday in Cornwall.
How do you define any nationality? the Italians, Germans, French, Spanish Is this a quiz - NOT ENGLISH and never invaded us

err, I'm starting to loose track here. Can you slow down a bit :P

midlandsmissus wrote: »

On the point:

What defines english.

I know alot of people in my generation (in my 20's) who's parents went over to work in england, had a child while they were working over there and then came back.

So these people my age, were born in england to Irish parents and have lived in Ireland nearly their whole lives.

These people are really ashamed of being born in england. It's awful to see. I know one guy who when he told me he was born in england said 'don't tell anybody that'. They actually really hate the fact that they were born in england. Their own parents would say 'the blo*dy english' and they would say 'but we were born in england' and the parents would say 'that doesnt count'.
I know these people loathe that they were born in england. It made me think, Was it really fair for irish people to go to england, have a child and then bring them back to a country that detests the english. Some of these children would have had an english accent at the time, (I was in school with a good few) and i know they were mercilessly hounded into the ground about being english..

It really blurs the boundary of what english is, so many irish people went to england, how can irish people still hate the english.

QFT.

Wonder why the English might have a dim view of the Irish? how many Irish people see England as somewhere they can nip to and use as they see fit. To get a job. watch decent football, go to University, have an abortion, jesus there are thousands of Irish nationals being treated in NHS hospitals. Then what happens? grief off a few jealous eejits.

Why do people think that slagging the English is acceptable, but it is ok to come to England to get a decent job?

Maybe if some of the gobby people in Ireland stopped mouthing off about the English or supporting anyone but England in the world cup, people in England might actually take a bit more notice of people in this country rather than writing the whole nation off as a bunch of whinging paddies.

just saying like.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Hobbes wrote: »

Did some of my early years schooling in England and that is pretty much correct in regards to Irish history (if it was touched on at all).

Although Irish history in classes is pretty much as bad. Glosses over the people killed by the IRA.

No it doesn't. We're taught about the IRA, from it's origions as the IRB (although not to it's end) but up to the 80's. It potrays the IRA pre 1920 in a positive light but after that not so

CDfm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

err, I'm starting to loose track here. Can you slow down a bit :P



QFT.

Wonder why the English might have a dim view of the Irish? how many Irish people see England as somewhere they can nip to and use as they see fit. To get a job. watch decent football, go to University, have an abortion, jesus there are thousands of Irish nationals being treated in NHS hospitals. Then what happens? grief off a few jealous eejits.

Why do people think that slagging the English is acceptable, but it is ok to come to England to get a decent job?

Maybe if some of the gobby people in Ireland stopped mouthing off about the English or supporting anyone but England in the world cup, people in England might actually take a bit more notice of people in this country rather than writing the whole nation off as a bunch of whinging paddies.

just saying like.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Fred -thats not even close to an apology.

Remember the guilt and shame bit.

As for the World Cup - its customary to support a team with a chance of winning. What about the Scots - I didnt see too many complaints about the movie the Last King of Scotland -pretty obvious who they support.

Fratton Fred

CDfm wrote: »

As for the World Cup - its customary to support a team with a chance of winning. What about the Scots - I didnt see too many complaints about the movie the Last King of Scotland -pretty obvious who they support.

has it never occured to you why Andy Murray is nowhere near as popular as Tim Henman was? he came out with some wise crack about supporting whatever team England were playing, so a lot of Tennis fans thought **** him, if he is that petty, we won't support him.

pablomakaveli

Fratton Fred wrote: »

err, I'm starting to loose track here. Can you slow down a bit :P



QFT.

Wonder why the English might have a dim view of the Irish? how many Irish people see England as somewhere they can nip to and use as they see fit. To get a job. watch decent football, go to University, have an abortion, jesus there are thousands of Irish nationals being treated in NHS hospitals. Then what happens? grief off a few jealous eejits.

Why do people think that slagging the English is acceptable, but it is ok to come to England to get a decent job?

Maybe if some of the gobby people in Ireland stopped mouthing off about the English or supporting anyone but England in the world cup, people in England might actually take a bit more notice of people in this country rather than writing the whole nation off as a bunch of whinging paddies.

just saying like.

I agree with some of the things your saying but when most of your posts involve belittling ireland and the irish , that tends to take away from the more valid points you make.

Latchy

Originally Posted by Hobbes

Although Irish history in classes is pretty much as bad. Glosses over the people killed by the IRA.

My recollection of irish history as taught by the Christian brothers ( who were anything but ) was very anti - English ,from the famine, to the battle of the boyne, Cromwell , 1916 . Incredibly intresting but I left as I imagine so did thousends of others,with a hatred of everything English . Many would eventually have to take that history along with them to England .

Latchy

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I agree with some of the things your saying but when most of your posts involve belittling ireland and the irish , that tends to take away from the more valid points you make.

Fred is not belittling ireland and the irish .He is just pointing out some things that are traits of the irish in general , like slagging the english off is a pastime but we think of nothing in coming over to work and live as we have done for decades .

Fratton Fred

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I agree with some of the things your saying but when most of your posts involve belittling ireland and the irish , that tends to take away from the more valid points you make.

yeah, you're right. it is not intentional.

every other post in this thread is putting down England and the English, it is easy to get lowered down to the same level.

You will note that I don't class all Irish people the same though and point out that it is only the minority who do this.

CDfm

latchyco wrote: »

we think of nothing in coming over to work and live as we have done for centuries .

Fixed that post.

Where did we learn that from and we have a lot of catching up to do.

Culturally - being anti Irish was something the English did quite well- up to relatively recently.That Irish people are confident enough now not to accept irish jokes and be the jokey paddy is a very positive step forward.

That they needed legislation to tell them it was wrong lol.

Latchy

CDfm wrote: »

Fixed that post.

Where did we learn that from and we have a lot of catching up to do.

Culturally - being anti Irish was something the English did quite well- up to relatively recently.That Irish people are confident enough now not to accept irish jokes and be the jokey paddy is a very positive step forward.

That they needed legislation to tell them it was wrong lol.

Centuries indeed .The irish workforce who emigrated to England in the last 6 decades ( specially in the 50s / 60s ) established themselfs amoung the british as good strong reliable people ,not afraid to work in hard conditions and also live in them to .The political 'PC' climate came to late for many and the paddy jokes were replaced by the polish ones .The paddys always told the best paddy jokes anyway .That's who the english learned them from anyway lol

I might also add if i havent lalready that those thousends of british/english tourists who came over to ireland will have gone back with a better understanding of irish history and ireland in general .They may not like it but will know it better then previous generations who saw ireland as just rebel ireland

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Berty wrote: »

Irrelavant how many country she is dealing with. As I told her not Im not in the North or the South of her make believe country, she should have accepted I was correct and would probably know what country I am in. She then offered me a UK phone number to call and when I asked for the Irish equivalent she said they are the same number because they are from the same area of the EMEA(European Middle East & Asia) for Dell. When I told her that Dell is based in Ireland(amongst others) they must have an Irish number, she said they were not based in Ireland and were based in the UK, somewhere. Now, I worked in Dell so I know it exists and my father gets up each day and goes to work in Dell..........................................or does he???

Now, where are you getting the idea about me signing and giving you verbal abuse. Chill, this is AH after all. :rolleyes: That was an uncalled for and very defensive comment to make.

Finally, thank god you say, directory enquiries some times can nearly accuse you of making up companies when they cannot find them. Are you sure thats the name of the shop. I once asked for John Moloneys Shop in XX Street, Ennis, Co Clare and I was told she could not find it and could I tell her who owns the shop. AND THEN, after not being able to find it actually has the strength to say "is there anything else I can help you with". You haven't helped me with anything yet and even though you could not find it, it still costs me money to talk to you. *Sigh*

Are you sure your information was correct?

So what happened when you rang Joe Duffy?

Anything else I cna help you with?:D:D

smcgiff

There are three periods of Irish History that should register in a UK history curriculum.

1. 1840s - The Irish Potato Famine, when 1 million plus UK citizens were left die, and many more UK citizens had to flea the UK.

2. 1922 - When the Free State was created. This bit is debatable as it happened after 1918, but it can be argued that the country that lost most land because of WW1 was the UK, albeit indirectly.

3. 1988 - And most importantly - Ray Houghton's Goal in Stuttgart!

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

Fixed that post.

Where did we learn that from and we have a lot of catching up to do.

Culturally - being anti Irish was something the English did quite well- up to relatively recently.That Irish people are confident enough now not to accept irish jokes and be the jokey paddy is a very positive step forward.

That they needed legislation to tell them it was wrong lol.

What made you live in such an evil place?

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

What made you live in such an evil place?

centuries of oppression by the mean and evil tyranical imperial forces of England.

why did you need to ask.

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

centuries of oppression by the mean and evil tyranical imperial forces of England.

why did you need to ask.

You must be older than Methuselah.

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

You must be older than Methuselah.

Not so old as to not have experienced it and fantasize that it never was so.

smcgiff

smcgiff wrote: »

There are three periods of Irish History that should register in a UK history curriculum.

1. 1840s - The Irish Potato Famine, when 1 million plus UK citizens were left die, and many more UK citizens had to flea the UK.

2. 1922 - When the Free State was created. This bit is debatable as it happened after 1918, but it can be argued that the country that lost most land because of WW1 was the UK, albeit indirectly.

Both of those subjects are covered and yes they are UK history, not sure how republicans would take the UK bit though.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

centuries of oppression by the mean and evil tyranical imperial forces of England.

why did you need to ask.

Those chips must be welded to your shoulders, did you inherit the grudge at birth or was it bequeathed to you in someones will.

CDfm

Deleted User wrote: »

Those chips must be welded to your shoulders, did you inherit the grudge at birth or was it bequeathed to you in someones will.

i dont need to pretend it was that were /are liked by the english.

Fratton Fred

smcgiff wrote: »

There are three periods of Irish History that should register in a UK history curriculum.

1. 1840s - The Irish Potato Famine, when 1 million plus UK citizens were left die, and many more UK citizens had to flea the UK.

2. 1922 - When the Free State was created. This bit is debatable as it happened after 1918, but it can be argued that the country that lost most land because of WW1 was the UK, albeit indirectly.

3. 1988 - And most importantly - Ray Houghton's Goal in Stuttgart!

We touched on the famine when I was at school (The curriculum may have changed a bit now) but post 1918 the only history we did was the League of Nations, the Treaty of versaille and how they both contributed to WWII. That was pretty much it.

The famine taught in British schools is a lot different to the way it is/was taught in Irish schools. The word "Genocide" doesn't ever get used for example.

I love it when people talk about ray Houghtons goal, or Italia 90 (Isn't there a DVD box set out for Christmas) because it is usually followed by up "Bloody English, always on about 1966":D

Fratton Fred

CDfm, you may like this article. http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/black_country/article_1.shtml

CDfm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

CDfm, you may like this article. http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/black_country/article_1.shtml

Fred - when I was in school and college there was almost a legacy of almost apologising for what happened in Ireland.Irish historians like FSL Lyons glossed over a lot of it.

Even in 1890 around 10% of the Irish Population lived in mudhuts.The famine and its aftermath was genocide and on any scale it was like the Holocaust. It triggered an economic depression that lasted throughout the 20th century with emigration.

The aftermath of the famine was the equivalent of the US Cavalry clearing the prairies of Native Americans. THe British Forces evicted starving famine victims.We were citizens.

Into the 1930s and 40s our young democracy was just bedding in and our relationship with the UK was destabilising.

I have never been a supporter of militant republicans - but just cos some irish got out as opposed to starve -doesnt really cut any odds.

This is not anti English - but I really do think that there is a certain amount of hypocracy in British sanatised history. Dont get me wrong I have many English friends and am very amused that an Indian friend in London describes himself as British - I dont know if its integration or ingratiation. But it wouldnt be me.

Fratton Fred

CDfm wrote: »

Fred - when I was in school and college there was almost a legacy of almost apologising for what happened in Ireland.Irish historians like FSL Lyons glossed over a lot of it.

Even in 1890 around 10% of the Irish Population lived in mudhuts.The famine and its aftermath was genocide and on any scale it was like the Holocaust. It triggered an economic depression that lasted throughout the 20th century with emigration.

The aftermath of the famine was the equivalent of the US Cavalry clearing the prairies of Native Americans. THe British Forces evicted starving famine victims.We were citizens.

Into the 1930s and 40s our young democracy was just bedding in and our relationship with the UK was destabilising.

I have never been a supporter of militant republicans - but just cos some irish got out as opposed to starve -doesnt really cut any odds.

This is not anti English - but I really do think that there is a certain amount of hypocracy in British sanatised history. Dont get me wrong I have many English friends and am very amused that an Indian friend in London describes himself as British - I dont know if its integration or ingratiation. But it wouldnt be me.

does it not occur to you that the history you were taught and the history taught in Britain are both sanitised somewhat. I guess the real truth lies somewhere in between.

CDfm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

does it not occur to you that the history you were taught and the history taught in Britain are both sanitised somewhat. I guess the real truth lies somewhere in between.

Not really Fred - but thats not the history I was taught- its just the facts.

I read some very interesting travelogues from the 1850s wriiten by an English Quaker some years back. Truly shocking.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Berty wrote:

The girl in Dell in India did not understand, she said you must be in either North or the South. I kept saying I was in the midwest, she kept asking midwest of what. Midwest of the Republic of Ireland I kept saying. Her brain was doing flips but she never got it.

Oh god this is embarrassing. Did you feel like a big man harrassing the girl in India when you knew exactly what she meant? That is the most pathetic thing I've heard in years.