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Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭ jonny68


    I'm absolutely appalled that any self respecting Irish person could ever suggest such a thing,disgraceful,id love to speak better Irish myself,it's just a shame more isn't done to promote and encourage people to learn our national language.:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,582 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    I think the OP chose the wrong word 'suppress' in the heading of the thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,459 ✭✭✭✭ Sleepy


    tba wrote:
    A short answer would be, if the Irish goverment did not fund its diffusion into everyday usage who would.
    Why should it be diffused into everyday usage?
    But first I would like to disagree with you on this point

    A standpoint of this nature would mean that, the literature, art, history, mythology and ideology of Ireland and Irishness is void and defunct, that it is worthless to learn or understand these concepts and ideals.

    The Irish language is part of this archetype.
    How long are you suggesting students should spend in school? If you want to spend the same 5 hours a week teaching students literature, art, history, mythology and 'ideology of Ireland' (whatever the hell that is) that we currently waste teaching Leaving Cert Students poor Irish, you'd be adding the best part of an extra year to the Leaving Cert sylabus. Irish is something that is *nice* to learn. It is not essential, nor even particularly useful in modern day usage. And no, the ability to surreptitiously perve on foreign waitresses is not a useful enough skill to warrant forcing a subject onto Leaving Cert students, ionapaul.
    Now I will agree that influences in our culture are passing. Catholicism would be a good example, it popularuty is waning and a forced prayer session would be as repulsive as prohibition of it practice. What seperates The Irish Language from a religion is that we own the Irish language, it is akin to a precious jewel we keep in our pocket but never show because we have an assortment of borrowed gems already around our neck.
    To you it's "akin to a precious jewel", to me it was a waste of fourteen years of my education. This is precisely the kind of argument I already pointed out doesn't stand up to reasoned thought. Your love for something does not make it valuable to society.
    What makes our language so much more repulsive than English that it should be thrown away by the masses only to be entertained by them as a passing fancy, the domain of those who see its true beauty.
    Did I ever say the language was repulsive? No. Though I will admit I don't see the 'beauty' of the language at all. Compared to Italian or French, it's nowhere near as pleasing to the ear IMHO.
    You say remove the Irish as a compulsory language, I say remove English, remove Maths, remove History and Geography, Physical Education and Art, why trifle with your cull.
    Forgetting the fact that History, Geography, PE and Art are already optional subjects for leaving Cert Students (as Stephen has already pointed out to you, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of impassioned debate) would you honestly like to see students sent to college without adequate numeracy or literacy skills? English and Maths are the only subjects that you will use in life no matter what career you adopt, hence they are compulsory for Leaving Cert students, and rightly so.
    Destroy our heritage bit by bit and when your children, and grandchildren become something other than Irish, some mish mash of cultures, trodden together by sky one dramas, harry potter books and american sitcoms, remember all you had to do was show them that gem in your pocket.

    Its a family heirloom, treasure it, and show them Its more than just a shiny old rock.
    You completely missed the point about what an individual values differing from what is for the benefit of society as a whole didn't you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,459 ✭✭✭✭ Sleepy


    jonny68 wrote:
    I'm absolutely appalled that any self respecting Irish person could ever suggest such a thing,disgraceful,id love to speak better Irish myself,it's just a shame more isn't done to promote and encourage people to learn our national language.:(
    Care to back that sentiment up with any reasoned argument?


  • Registered Users Posts: 526 mandz


    To echo what most people are saying i would love to be fluent in irish. Being honest i didn't like Irish until 5th year. The teacher we had for irish obviously loved the language and was so enthusiastic about it that i think it was contagious i found myself actually enjoying the class. It also helped that the short novel she picked for us to study was a modern book with issues that related to our age group. i thoroughly think that the way that it is taught needs to be changed asap. Teachers need to be more encouraging with the use of the language rather than being forceful and aggressive. As someone has already mentioned the fact that after learning the language for 14years people are not fluent seriously highlights that changes need to be made.

    I definately do not think the language should be ignored especially in todays world and in particular this country. With the new multi-national population that we have today it appears that every other nationality will retain their language giving them individuality so why can't the irish do the same? Our language, culture and heritage should be celebrated and not just abandoned to be more like the main ringleaders of western society. The irish people and countryside were liked for a reason worldwide and if we're not careful i think we are serious danger of losing this amicability.

    The fat pay check people in the Dail and Seanad need to open their eyes and do something about this problem (they couldn't even be bothered to have the language registered as a european language -hello!!) before its far too late.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 Binomate


    spahndirge wrote:
    I nearly pissed myself looking at that!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭ tba


    I dont think we can agree sleepy, you seem to think everything must have a reason, every action a purpose, I prefer to see possibilties, and an holistic path but that is just me.

    Suffice to say neither of us has convinced the other.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,473 ✭✭✭ R0ot


    The irish language is the best thing in ireland, i wish i had been taught it better but i had a crappy teacher in primary and developed a very poor grasp of the irish language. Everyone should be taught it. UP THE IRISH! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,895 ✭✭✭✭ Dave!


    tba wrote:
    I dont think we can agree sleepy, you seem to think everything must have a reason, every action a purpose

    I agree, I've seen you (Sleepy) posting before about this, and you come across as wanting us all to be cogs in a machine, all fitting together, everyone university educated, everyone equally serving to benefit the economy in their respective positions -- devoid of emotion! or creativity! or romanticism!

    I've seen you posting about how we should take Irish class out and put in drivers' ed, sex ed, etc etc, and how that would benefit society greatly, which is true, but then that comes back to, at what cost? And that goes back to the importance of a national identity, and what role the Irish language can play in that, which you apparantly don't see as important, and all diddly-aye-diddly-aye stuff.

    Polarised opinions I guess. I think that the language is important.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,071 ✭✭✭✭ Terry


    i don't think you can put a price on national identity.


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  • Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭ rainbow kirby


    I would agree that the Irish language is important, but I don't think it should be compulsory past Junior Cert. I didn't like the subject in school, but then again, I was more of a scientific type and didn't like English or French much either. In fact, I never really enjoyed a language class until I took a Japanese class in college. It does need to be taught a lot better though, literature at LC level is pointless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,425 440Hz


    Gaeilge Abu!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,125 Random


    Teach us French/German/Spanish/Chinese in school instead and leave Irish as an optional extra.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭ susanna


    Ban Irish from the State and enforce English as the main language?

    That's just plain ridiculous. Irish is our native language and the fact that it has gone through such a decline is a real shame. Like many people, I didn't enjoy studying Irish in school because its a really difficult language to learn, but I really wish I could speak it fluently. It's a part of our culture and it should be protected, not thrown away. And how could anyone even consider it being banned? What country in the world would ban their own language, unless it had been occupied by another country (not the way of the world these days).

    The fact that we speak English and have a similar lifestyle to the British does not make us British. Our language is part of our identity and we should encourage it to grow. I just hope the way its taught in school is addressed pretty quickly, it needs a contemporary spin to stand half a chance of keeping students interested


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,872 segadreamcast


    Poll poster framed the question in such an awkward way so that (s)he could only generate the desired response.

    Honestly, this question is so poorly done - I'd be disgusted if it were ever used/quoted anywhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭ xha1r


    Suppress? Ban?

    I mean come on, are you on dope? Im a 5th year student and like every other student in the country, have to learn it. However, I love Irish. I went to an all Irish primary school and have always wanted to learn Irish.

    The only problem is as people have said, the way it is taught. So many people dislike it due to this. People who know me would call me a jack-the-lad type dosser, so it isnt often Id praise something like this (ie a dying language, more homework etc).

    Gaeilge is a fantastic language, and if we "ban" it, we may aswell get them to destroy the Anglo-Irish Treaty and allow the UK to call the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland, British.

    What does it give us other than keep with our culture? (paraphrased from another post). Not alot to be fair, but what does History give us? We dont really need to know about it, I mean its in the past, not many people really need it to do well in life, do they?

    It makes us more intellectual, we have a broader knowledge and respect for our language and culture. I was disgusted when I saw this topic, although the argument was quite fair, it is stupid and ignorant to ever consider "banning" or not teaching the our language in this country.

    Call yourself Irish?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,881 dceire


    I can speak very little Irish & hated it when I was in school but now I regret not trying to learn it in school. I plan on taking Irish evening classes when I finish college.

    The way its taught is in need of major reform & it needs to be encouraged in the media, I think shows like Gift Grub using Irish would have a great affect on the languages popularity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 620 Mr.D.Leprachaun


    I don't think it should be abandonned, nor do I think it should be forced as an exam subject on students but rather taught seperately from other subjects so as to remove the pressure and also get rid of the daftness that happens in my school, and others too I'd assume, of learning off essays and the like.If it were taught for the sake of teaching it rather than or an exam I think it would get a more positive reception.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭ xha1r


    nor do I think it should be forced as an exam subject on students but rather taught seperately from other subjects.

    im sorry, but i dont quite understand that? it is taught seperately from other subjects no?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,792 J.R.HARTLEY


    give hector a government grant and have him teach irish in the workplace,
    it's a fantastic language but i can't come up with any logical or budgetary reasons not to ban it.
    however having completed my entire education through irish i thoroughly support the language and culture and don't have a chip on my shoulder about how it was taught to me.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭ EOA_Mushy


    Like every thing else.... ITS THE IRISH GOVERNMENT!!!

    Over haul evey thing in the country starting with axing the entire government.

    Think of the spare resourses that could be put to better use. and the lack of throwing stupid quantities of money at things that never take place.
    (That new prison reminds me of the monthy python "quest for the holy grail" [build a castle on a marsh])

    If irish was thought as well as any other language there would not be a problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭ senordingdong


    **** no!
    Anyone who thinks otherwise should be suppressed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 575 JustCoz


    Irish is a key part of our national identity and should not be abolished or even made optional in school. The way it's taught needs to be completly changed though because most people leave school without being able to string a sentence together. What a disgrace to the Irish education system!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭ xha1r


    give hector a government grant and have him teach irish in the workplace,
    it's a fantastic language but i can't come up with any logical or budgetary reasons not to ban it.
    however having completed my entire education through irish i thoroughly support the language and culture and don't have a chip on my shoulder about how it was taught to me.

    What is with people using the word "ban"? Are you suggesting it be made a crime to speak it? I mean ban generally means that it is dangerous, harmful or offensive to use. I mean use some intelligence here people!

    "Ban"? Seriously, I find it hard to believe people can use such language with the subject we are talking about... Perhaps these people didnt go to school..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 398 ✭✭ Hydroquinone


    A lot of people say Irish is a key part of our national and cultural identity. What does that really mean? How can something that is spoken by so few people really be a major part of anything?

    I'd go along with all those who have said itis poorly taught and if it was taught better, then we'd all know it better and might even use it. But as it stands, it's a bit of a mess.

    Thinking about the remarks here regarding the use of the word "ban" I agree it's an emotive word as is "surpress".
    Although - maybe that's it; ban it and the underground Gaeilgeori would flourish. All manner of drugs are illegal and they're pretty much rampant around the place. I can see it now, dealers and pimps as gailge, enticing people into the twilight world of illegal language fluency. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,459 ✭✭✭✭ Sleepy


    DaveMcG wrote:
    I agree, I've seen you (Sleepy) posting before about this, and you come across as wanting us all to be cogs in a machine, all fitting together, everyone university educated, everyone equally serving to benefit the economy in their respective positions -- devoid of emotion! or creativity! or romanticism!
    No, I have no desire for everyone to be cogs in a machine or university educated, I do however believe that government should only spend tax revenue on things that benefit the country as a whole and I don't believe that the Irish language is of enough benefit to us to justify the costs (both financial and oportunistic) of forcing the entire country to "learn" the language.
    I've seen you posting about how we should take Irish class out and put in drivers' ed, sex ed, etc etc, and how that would benefit society greatly, which is true, but then that comes back to, at what cost?
    Now, you're beginning to see my argument, albeit from the opposite side of the fence. Replacing Irish class with drivers' ed, sex e, physcal & health education would save lives. Ergo, those lives that aren't being saved are the cost of forcing everyone in this country to learn a language which most quickly forget and place little value on.
    And that goes back to the importance of a national identity, and what role the Irish language can play in that, which you apparantly don't see as important, and all diddly-aye-diddly-aye stuff.
    You're right, I don't see a national identity as particularly important. Patriotism to me is the height of ignorance: it's taking pride in something which was no more than a fluke: i.e. the place you were born. IMHO, it's akin to white-pride. However, I can see why some people feel the need to have something about themselves to be proud of and can understand the desire to place importance on this. Appeasing this desire, however, is not worth the opportunity costs of the lives it could save in my opinion. Maybe you place more value on national identity or the Irish language than on the lives of our nation's children, personally, I can't tolerate that.
    Polarised opinions I guess. I think that the language is important.
    And I appreciate that. I'm not in any way suggesting that you shouldn't have the right to educate yourself in the language and would even happily agree to the compromise of allowing Irish to remain a compulsory part of the curriculum until Junior Cert. Which, were the language taught correctly in the first place, should be plenty of time for most students to attain proficiency (if not fluency) in the language. After all, that's still 11 years of education.

    Now, if you can tell me that you value the language more than the lives of the coming generations, I'll agree to disagree. Otherwise, I can't see how you can argue for the continued imposition of the Irish language upon Leaving Certificate students.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭✭✭ Ace7


    Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

    I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

    Are the Welsh stupid to revive it and for wanting to revive it? Of what use is Welsh? Seems like many of the knocks against Irish could also be said about Welsh. Welsh is not an international language. Is reviving Welsh a waste of tax payers money?

    Welsh is not spoken outside Wales, right? Like Irish, Welsh is more a 'rural' language rather than the language of industry/business/commerce. English is a much more useful language and more widely spoken than Welsh. etc. etc.

    Maybe Welsh is taught better than Irish is. But I've heard that for English speakers, Welsh - like Irish - is still a hard language to learn.

    How many school children will use Welsh after leaving school? Maybe not that many, same as with Irish. Maybe some view Welsh as a waste of time. But Welsh has somehow been revived.

    I've heard that Welsh hadn't died out as much as Irish has, and so that made it easier to revive. But is that the whole story, or are there other reasons?

    I'm sure there are some in Wales who view Welsh as an old, poor, backward, farming, type language. So it has had its opponents and obstacles. And yet it has still been revived. So whats been the difference between Wales and Ireland, between the Welsh people and the Irish people, and between the two celtic languages?

    I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,071 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    A fun curriculum would help learning, rather than something so dry. Ni'l ach beaga'n Gaeilge agam. Embarrassing indeed! B!ue hangs head and shuffles off...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 529 ✭✭ rhapsody!


    I think it should still be around but I DO NOT THINK it should be compulsary in school. It should be an option, so that people who hate it don't have to carry on with it, but then people who liked it wouldn't be deprived.

    I hate it, most boring subject in school.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,255 stovelid


    I voted for the increased funding...

    I'd like to completely modernize/reform the way it is taught in schools, with emphasis on spoken and written Irish in a social context. Perhaps it could also be made an optional subject, but with some kind of exam incentive. Would also like to see it dropped as a requirement for Uni, teaching, civil service, etc.


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