Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

EOA_Mushy · 15-02-2006 11:53pm

Like every thing else.... ITS THE IRISH GOVERNMENT!!!

Over haul evey thing in the country starting with axing the entire government.

Think of the spare resourses that could be put to better use. and the lack of throwing stupid quantities of money at things that never take place.
(That new prison reminds me of the monthy python "quest for the holy grail" [build a castle on a marsh])

If irish was thought as well as any other language there would not be a problem.

senordingdong · 15-02-2006 11:56pm

**** no!
Anyone who thinks otherwise should be suppressed.

JustCoz · 16-02-2006 12:00am

Irish is a key part of our national identity and should not be abolished or even made optional in school. The way it's taught needs to be completly changed though because most people leave school without being able to string a sentence together. What a disgrace to the Irish education system!

xha1r · 16-02-2006 2:00am

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

give hector a government grant and have him teach irish in the workplace,
it's a fantastic language but i can't come up with any logical or budgetary reasons not to ban it.
however having completed my entire education through irish i thoroughly support the language and culture and don't have a chip on my shoulder about how it was taught to me.

What is with people using the word "ban"? Are you suggesting it be made a crime to speak it? I mean ban generally means that it is dangerous, harmful or offensive to use. I mean use some intelligence here people!

"Ban"? Seriously, I find it hard to believe people can use such language with the subject we are talking about... Perhaps these people didnt go to school..

Hydroquinone · 16-02-2006 10:23am

A lot of people say Irish is a key part of our national and cultural identity. What does that really mean? How can something that is spoken by so few people really be a major part of anything?

I'd go along with all those who have said itis poorly taught and if it was taught better, then we'd all know it better and might even use it. But as it stands, it's a bit of a mess.

Thinking about the remarks here regarding the use of the word "ban" I agree it's an emotive word as is "surpress".
Although - maybe that's it; ban it and the underground Gaeilgeori would flourish. All manner of drugs are illegal and they're pretty much rampant around the place. I can see it now, dealers and pimps as gailge, enticing people into the twilight world of illegal language fluency.

Sleepy · 16-02-2006 11:15am

DaveMcG wrote:

I agree, I've seen you (Sleepy) posting before about this, and you come across as wanting us all to be cogs in a machine, all fitting together, everyone university educated, everyone equally serving to benefit the economy in their respective positions -- devoid of emotion! or creativity! or romanticism!

No, I have no desire for everyone to be cogs in a machine or university educated, I do however believe that government should only spend tax revenue on things that benefit the country as a whole and I don't believe that the Irish language is of enough benefit to us to justify the costs (both financial and oportunistic) of forcing the entire country to "learn" the language.

I've seen you posting about how we should take Irish class out and put in drivers' ed, sex ed, etc etc, and how that would benefit society greatly, which is true, but then that comes back to, at what cost?

Now, you're beginning to see my argument, albeit from the opposite side of the fence. Replacing Irish class with drivers' ed, sex e, physcal & health education would save lives. Ergo, those lives that aren't being saved are the cost of forcing everyone in this country to learn a language which most quickly forget and place little value on.

And that goes back to the importance of a national identity, and what role the Irish language can play in that, which you apparantly don't see as important, and all diddly-aye-diddly-aye stuff.

You're right, I don't see a national identity as particularly important. Patriotism to me is the height of ignorance: it's taking pride in something which was no more than a fluke: i.e. the place you were born. IMHO, it's akin to white-pride. However, I can see why some people feel the need to have something about themselves to be proud of and can understand the desire to place importance on this. Appeasing this desire, however, is not worth the opportunity costs of the lives it could save in my opinion. Maybe you place more value on national identity or the Irish language than on the lives of our nation's children, personally, I can't tolerate that.

Polarised opinions I guess. I think that the language is important.

And I appreciate that. I'm not in any way suggesting that you shouldn't have the right to educate yourself in the language and would even happily agree to the compromise of allowing Irish to remain a compulsory part of the curriculum until Junior Cert. Which, were the language taught correctly in the first place, should be plenty of time for most students to attain proficiency (if not fluency) in the language. After all, that's still 11 years of education.

Now, if you can tell me that you value the language more than the lives of the coming generations, I'll agree to disagree. Otherwise, I can't see how you can argue for the continued imposition of the Irish language upon Leaving Certificate students.

Ace7 · 16-08-2008 6:15pm

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

Are the Welsh stupid to revive it and for wanting to revive it? Of what use is Welsh? Seems like many of the knocks against Irish could also be said about Welsh. Welsh is not an international language. Is reviving Welsh a waste of tax payers money?

Welsh is not spoken outside Wales, right? Like Irish, Welsh is more a 'rural' language rather than the language of industry/business/commerce. English is a much more useful language and more widely spoken than Welsh. etc. etc.

Maybe Welsh is taught better than Irish is. But I've heard that for English speakers, Welsh - like Irish - is still a hard language to learn.

How many school children will use Welsh after leaving school? Maybe not that many, same as with Irish. Maybe some view Welsh as a waste of time. But Welsh has somehow been revived.

I've heard that Welsh hadn't died out as much as Irish has, and so that made it easier to revive. But is that the whole story, or are there other reasons?

I'm sure there are some in Wales who view Welsh as an old, poor, backward, farming, type language. So it has had its opponents and obstacles. And yet it has still been revived. So whats been the difference between Wales and Ireland, between the Welsh people and the Irish people, and between the two celtic languages?

I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.

Black Swan · 16-08-2008 6:22pm

A fun curriculum would help learning, rather than something so dry. Ni'l ach beaga'n Gaeilge agam. Embarrassing indeed! B!ue hangs head and shuffles off...

rhapsody! · 16-08-2008 6:56pm

I think it should still be around but I DO NOT THINK it should be compulsary in school. It should be an option, so that people who hate it don't have to carry on with it, but then people who liked it wouldn't be deprived.

I hate it, most boring subject in school.

stovelid · 16-08-2008 7:03pm

I voted for the increased funding...

I'd like to completely modernize/reform the way it is taught in schools, with emphasis on spoken and written Irish in a social context. Perhaps it could also be made an optional subject, but with some kind of exam incentive. Would also like to see it dropped as a requirement for Uni, teaching, civil service, etc.

MIN2511 · 16-08-2008 7:06pm

I wish i could speak Irish, after the leaving cert i wante to learn... Dunno what happened, i still want to learn!
How can you have a language and not use it? I am useless, English is the only language i speak

Xavi6 · 16-08-2008 7:09pm

Holy digging up a long dead thread Batman.

Definitely needs to be reformed and kept alive. Personally I'm proud to be able to speak it.

LordSutch · 18-08-2008 5:24pm

I also voted for the increased funding...

I'd like the Government to completely reform the way Irish is taught in schools, with emphasis being on the spoken word, I also think that Irish should be an 'optional' subject, as I suspect that the forced nature of Irish over the last eight decades has failed miserably, & maybe if the pressure was taken off those Parents & pupils who really wanted to learn Irish, then they would learn it with a smile & enjoy the experience (instead of hating it).

Currently there are too many people who have bad memories of the way Irish was taught/forced into them.

Dudess · 18-08-2008 5:29pm

I don't think it should be mandatory for the Leaving... but then again I don't think any subject should be mandatory for the Leaving.

I fuppin' hated it in fifth and sixth year.

Wibbs · 18-08-2008 5:44pm

This thread is like the Irish language. Old, gets dragged up from time to time and ultimately going nowhere fast....

:D

18-08-2008 7:48pm

I hate the Irish language, mainly due to the way it was taught to me and also the fact that most of the Irish teachers in my secondary school were just plain evil. I got detained once for not bringing my copy into class.

When I was in primary school in Dublin, Irish was very low down on the teachers' priority list. In 5th class we only did it twice in the whole year! Then I was moved to Kerry where the populace seem obsessed with it and they seemed quite offended that I wasn't nearly fluent by age 12. :rolleyes:

I say, remove the compulsory status. If you want to learn it, by all means do so. But if you don't then why should it matter?

Tar.Aldarion · 18-08-2008 8:54pm

Sleepy wrote: »

You're right, I don't see a national identity as particularly important. Patriotism to me is the height of ignorance: it's taking pride in something which was no more than a fluke: i.e. the place you were born.

Agreed.
I have no problem with poeple wanting to learn Irish, please do, enjoy yourself. Personally I preferred learning languages I could use. I did well in honours Irish and French but I will never speak Irish, nor do i want to. I would have much preferred to learn german/spanish/russian/italian/japanese/language likely to use instead of it. I don't buy into this, if we don't learn Irish in school we lose our national identity crap.

Begarra, potatoes.

Holsten · 18-08-2008 9:11pm

Reform the Irish curriculum, boost funding, and encourage Irish.

Yes!

I hated the subject in school... cause the way it was thought, I mean how many years of Irish? 12? And I can't speak a sentence.

xOxSinéadxOx · 18-08-2008 9:21pm

Mmmm_Lemony wrote: »

I like many others here wish I could speak irish but can't because it was difficult in school to learn. We had a great teacher in primary and I was nearly fluent but when we got to secondary the first three years we had an absolute maniac. If you did your homework he liked you and he was a great teacher if you got on his good side. If you didn't (and I certainly didn't) you struggled. I was eventually moved to pass for the inter and the teacher we had, had no confidence and the class ran riot.

I will definitely be sending my kids to an Irish Speaking School even considering the very high cost. If the government put as much funding into education and in particular the irish language instead of leaky funking tunnels, we would all be speaking irish (the whole nation) and we would be smart enough not to fall for the bull**** tunnel expenses and the crappy road network, and the..... well pretty much everything about this country is fecked because of the idiots that are running the comedy show!!!!

OT - the guy in the film looks like wolverine!

i was definitely fluent in primary school. got to secondary and i gradually got worse and worse. had a ****e teacher and the course is just stupid and boring, nobody's bothered or interested

Ross_Mahon · 18-08-2008 9:23pm

I don't speak the queens English, I speak me own language.

dlofnep · 18-08-2008 9:41pm

Can't remember if I commented in this thread.

But I think we should totally revamp the cirriculum so that more focus is put on conversational Irish. It's a waste of time unless we can speak it at the end of the day. Spurting out a couple of cliché phrases after over a decade of study isn't really a bang for your buck.

I'm studying Gaeilge on my own time now after finishing secondary 8 years ago and I find it much more fun than it ever was in school. I meet up with a few people once a week for a few pints for an Irish conversational night and it's a great craic.

tracker-man · 18-08-2008 10:41pm

I would prefer to see European languages pushed in schools instead of Irish, it would be much more beneficial and realistic IMO. Primary as well as secondary schools I mean

magick · 18-08-2008 10:50pm

tracker-man wrote: »

I would prefer to see European languages pushed in schools instead of Irish, it would be much more beneficial and realistic IMO. Primary as well as secondary schools I mean

well ur happy to do german/french, and im sure some spainish too in schools,

but for the sake of pushing out a bit of our culture? No thank you

18-08-2008 11:22pm

Ace7 wrote: »

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.

Put simply, Wales didn't have the same "language shift" that Ireland had in the 19th century.

Welsh declined right up until the 1970-80's then there was a renewed interest in the language, also the decline was much less severe than in Ireland with welsh being the language of choice for 20% of the population (wikki it welsh language history).

Unlike the Irish, the welsh never really disowned their language.

Marcus.Aurelius · 18-08-2008 11:53pm

The irish language is utter rubbish, irrelevant and a black hole for money in the 21st century.

The way it was taught was fine, look at how well our education system compares with the English one for example. The simple fact is that irish is an utter waste of time and money, imo.

Do away with it and the rest of the rubbish we waste taxpayer's money on and start saving a few lives in our third world hospitals.

unreggd · 19-08-2008 12:32am

Im kinda shocked at the poll results

in a good way

fair plé!

Reform is defo needed

The LC paper is basically the same as the english paper, with more stuff, in a language you dont understand!

Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

19-08-2008 12:39am

unreggd wrote: »

Im kinda shocked at the poll results

in a good way

fair plé!

Reform is defo needed

The LC paper is basically the same as the english paper, with more stuff, in a language you dont understand!

Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

It's down to the age group of most boardsies, try the same poll with people in their 40-50's and you'll probably get a much more negative figure.

I wasn't educated in Ireland so am unable to comment on the teaching methods used,but have heard many a complaint about it! Irish should be taught like any other modern language;
Starting with basic conversational stuff like "hello, how are you" "Dia dhit, conas ata tu" etc (fada's not working :mad:
leave out the literature until much later and make it optional for those that wiah to study it.

Sponge Bob · 19-08-2008 12:59am

We urgently need to learn Polish because all "our" jobs are going there soon .

....Oh Wait !!!! they will all speak english by the time we get there so scratch that !!!

Can we maybe teach our skangers to speak english , that would be such a challenge would it not bud , dedly wha jayzuz dedly buzz wha !!!

19-08-2008 1:01am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We urgently need to learn Polish because all "our" jobs are going there soon .

....Oh Wait !!!! they will all speak english by the time we get there so scratch that !!!

You'd be better off learning how to polish, as that's the only type of job that'll be left.

Sponge Bob · 19-08-2008 1:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd be better off learning how to polish, as that's the only type of job that'll be left.

Languages are capitalised and you surely meant 'to polish' but seeminy forgot the 'to' . However I forgive you

It always strikes me that the hordes of illiterate skangers swarming about in our urban areas and who cannot speak English (but who grunt their way through a sad approximation of it) are the true measure of our complete failure to educate our population.

The resentment of those who spent over 10 years in an education system and learnt nothing of Irish is but in the ha'penny place compared to that.

Hopefully our Polish friends will find something useful for them to do and I believe that our Polish friends could possibly persuade them to enunciate the English language better than our education system ever could.

That would be a jolly good start , dedly bud bleedin dedly wha !!!

dlofnep · 19-08-2008 1:18am

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

The way it was taught was fine, look at how well our education system compares with the English one for example.

Erm, wrong. I think after studying a language for 13 years and being unable to speak it is a clear indication that the way it was thought is not fine.

19-08-2008 1:25am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Languages are capitalised and you surely meant 'to polish' but seeminy forgot the 'to' . However I forgive you

It always strikes me that the hordes of illiterate skangers swarming about in our urban areas and who cannot speak English (but who grunt their way through a sad approximation of it) are the true measure of our complete failure to educate our population.

Céard! I had a to

For many deliberately downgrading their language skills is a skill in itself!
Just look at some of the bebo pages and you'll know wot' i meen! (you try reading or understanding some of it).

If those skangers thort that oirish was kool deyd talk it rit tomoro ya now wat i meen

Pride Fighter · 19-08-2008 1:26am

I dont remember ever being taught grammar in Irish. That is just ridiculous. I learned Ancient Greek over the summer for 2 weeks and learned more Greek in 2 weeks than 14 years of Irish.

Firetrap · 19-08-2008 1:27am

Overall I'd say leave it be. The only thing I'd change is the way it's taught in schools. They should teach it more like they do with a European language. More conversational skills, less reading of stuffy books and poems. I still get the shudders when I remember the stuff we had to plough our way through - poems about babies being piked to death, Padraig O Conaire's misogynistic Scoithscéalta, the legendary Peig.

While I wouldn't like to see Irish die out, it's not of any use to us really. We speak English as a first language and this is an advantage to us. There are enough Irish language enthusiasts around to keep the language alive. Just don't force it down the necks of the rest of us who would rather speak English.

eVeNtInE · 19-08-2008 1:31am

This post has been deleted.

dumbyearbook · 19-08-2008 1:33am

Simple answer to this is no!! there is no reason to suppress a language...........other than say a good lashing of genocide as the Op has said above.

If you cannot speak the language; its more than likely because you had a bad teacher/no interest which is the reason you probably did poorly in lots of subjects - we don't learn well where we have no interest.

I don't remember my leaving cert theorems either but I dont think we need get rid of them from schools just because of it. You always learn a little form each part of an education just because the language is not all that useful does'nt mean there is no point, consider the national school student who takes to the language really well and goes on to study languages in college maybe they would never have known their aptitude for languages but for Irish.

for me though its just the importance culturally.

19-08-2008 1:38am

I still get the shudders when I remember the stuff we had to plough our way through - poems about babies being piked to death, Padraig O Conaire's misogynistic Scoithscéalta, the legendary Peig.

If that's what most people remember of their Irish language education, then it's no wonder the language is despised by so many.

The primary purpose of any language is to communicate your message to another, learning conversational skills in everyday situations is the best way to learn a "foreign" language (Irish is foreign, as it is not the language the learner was brought up with at home) except for the Gaeltacht.

Jigsaw · 19-08-2008 1:40am

Irish language should not be suppressed. It should be promoted and more people should try to learn it and follow the Welsh example. Irish will never again be the first language of this island but it ought to be the second for sure. Forget about the West Brits.

Pride Fighter · 19-08-2008 1:46am

Jigsaw wrote: »

Irish language should not be suppressed. It should be promoted and more people should try to learn it and follow the Welsh example. Irish will never again be the first language of this island but it ought to be the second for sure. Forget about the West Brits.

There are a lot of people (call them West Brits) who are shamed to be Irish. I agree they should be ignored, I have a funny story, one of them verbally berated me for wearing a Celtic jersey, I LOLed.
Catalan and Welsh should be the examples we follow to revive our language. Grammar should be taught first and foremost, we never heard of nominative or accusative in school.

19-08-2008 1:55am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There are a lot of people (call them West Brits) who are shamed to be Irish. I agree they should be ignored, I have a funny story, one of them verbally berated me for wearing a Celtic jersey, I LOLed.
Catalan and Welsh should be the examples we follow to revive our language. Grammar should be taught first and foremost, we never heard of nominative or accusative in school.

Look also to some of the FSU (former soviet union) there several countries have reinstated their national languages after 70 odd years of Russian suppression.

With Irish, too many Irish, not just west brits think the language is a waste of time (my wife included, she is no west brit!).
I occasionaly hear Irsih spoken, but the speakers sound almost embarrased to be heard!

, there is a serious deep psychological issue with the language that needs to be addressed.

KateF · 19-08-2008 1:58am

Ehhh wait now.

No, wait...I'm STILL confused....15% of you voted to ban the Irish language from the state?!? Why? Why?! Wait now

eh ya, why? Get some pride!! For Gods sake

19-08-2008 1:59am

KateF wrote: »

Ehhh wait now. No, wait...I'm STILL confused....15% of you voted to ban the Irish language from the state?!? Why? Why?! Wait now eh ya, why? Get some pride!! For Gods sake

Banning it may cause the biggest revival of all times!!

KateF · 19-08-2008 2:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

Banning it may cause the biggest revival of all times!!

Hmm

Good point there

Star20 · 19-08-2008 2:39am

Tá Gaeilge líofa agam ón cliabhán agus is breá liom mo teanga dúchas a labhairt gach uile lá ó maidin go h-óiche...

Ba cheart don Rialtas béim níos mó a chuir ar an d-teanga sula mbíonn sé ró-dhéanach. Tá mise chun Gaeilge go h-iomlán a labhairt dtí mo chlann agus tá siúl agam go bhfuil níos mó daoine amuigh ansin á dhéanadh an rud céanna!

Gaeilge Abú agus ar ndódh Co.Phort Láirge abú...

19-08-2008 2:43am

Star20 wrote: »

Tá Gaeilge líofa agam ón cliabhán agus is breá liom mo teanga dúchas a labhairt gach uile lá ó maidin go h-óiche...

Ba cheart don Rialtas béim níos mó a chuir ar an d-teanga sula mbíonn sé ró-dhéanach. Tá mise chun Gaeilge go h-iomlán a labhairt dtí mo chlann agus tá siúl agam go bhfuil níos mó daoine amuigh ansin á dhéanadh an rud céanna!

Gaeilge Abú agus ar ndódh Co.Phort Láirge abú...

as Bearla freisin, le do thoil!

not all of us have good Irish ( I don't).

dee8839 · 19-08-2008 9:29am

I think the basics of what he/she said was that (s)he "is fluent in Irish and loves speaking his/her native tongue from morning to night. The government should put a bigger emphasis on the language before its too late. I'm going to speak Irish to my family more and I hope more people out there will do the same. Irish forever (well, abu, whatever that translates as literally) and of course Waterford forever!" (No accounting for taste!)

Think thats the basic idea but thats from memory as I can't see the post now so not certain!

I don't think its a good idea to stop Irish from being compulsory in school. I appreciate that its not taught very well, and needs to be modernised, but there are too many kids out there who are not very academic or are a bit lazy about school and want to cruise through getting the maximum results with the least amount of work. And Irish takes work.

I think that I might not have chosen it as an LC subject had it been optional, simply because I needed very high points and there were subjects I could have taken instead which would reap bigger awards with less effort. I got my honours A1 but god I worked for it. Some people would not bother to work that hard if they didn't have to, regardless of their like or dislike for the language itself.

I love Gaeilge, I think its lyrical and musical, and very handy for commenting on people when abroad!!:cool:

Reform, certainly. But not optional, please!

Earthhorse · 19-08-2008 10:32am

Permit me to translate...

Star20 wrote: »

Tá Gaeilge líofa agam ón cliabhán agus is breá liom mo teanga dúchas a labhairt gach uile lá ó maidin go h-óiche...

Ba cheart don Rialtas béim níos mó a chuir ar an d-teanga sula mbíonn sé ró-dhéanach. Tá mise chun Gaeilge go h-iomlán a labhairt dtí mo chlann agus tá siúl agam go bhfuil níos mó daoine amuigh ansin á dhéanadh an rud céanna!

Gaeilge Abú agus ar ndódh Co.Phort Láirge abú...

I have a loaf of Irish with me on my head and I like it good to speak to everybody each morning and each night.

It's right that the rules get bigger to put our language before we are too late. I have Irish a lot good (speaking) to my family and I know that there are people outside of now that are doing the right thing.

Hurray for Irish and definitely hurray for Port Laoise.

dlofnep · 19-08-2008 10:44am

Star20 wrote: »

Tá Gaeilge líofa agam ón cliabhán agus is breá liom mo teanga dúchas a labhairt gach uile lá ó maidin go h-óiche...

Ba cheart don Rialtas béim níos mó a chuir ar an d-teanga sula mbíonn sé ró-dhéanach. Tá mise chun Gaeilge go h-iomlán a labhairt dtí mo chlann agus tá siúl agam go bhfuil níos mó daoine amuigh ansin á dhéanadh an rud céanna!

Gaeilge Abú agus ar ndódh Co.Phort Láirge abú...

An bhfuil tú as Phort Láirge (cathair nó contae?) Bíonn mé féin agus cupla daoine eile amach gach Déardaoin ag caint as gaeilge. Aon suim agat? Ar aon nós, ceapaim go bhfuil an teanga ag teacht ar ais.

Neamhshuntasach · 19-08-2008 10:56am

What sort of ignorant fu<ker would vote for option one?

In my opinion it is English that is the inferior language. Gaeilge is just less spoken. And if you are one of the people that add to Gaeilge being less spoken than English why should you care. Does it bother you that signs are in both languages? If it does you must have a great life if something as trivial as a sign can allow you to formulate the opinion that we should banish Gaeilge.

Irish people amaze me. We are a tiny country but yet we have one of the most interesting history and beautiful languages in the world and feck all people embrace it. I reckon most Irish people wouldn't give a fu<k if the GPO turned into a McDonalds.

_blank_ · 19-08-2008 10:59am

The Irish language is being surpressed by the moderators of the Gaeilge forum on Boards.ie

I asked a question one time, and got banned from it.

Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

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