Magic!

Kernel

mysteria wrote:

We all possess an inner self-healing mechanism. We can learn to activate it and use it for self help, but sometimes we need others to help. And the placebo effect is very powerful, but I totally agree with you Solas, it does'nt matter what causes improvement once you feel better.

It does matter, scientifically speaking, what if we said, it doesn't matter how gravity works, once we know not to jump off cliffs? Do you think mankind would have advanced one iota? Understanding the mechanisms of the universe is a fundamental quest.

If the body has a facility to heal (which it does, and which science has observed but not yet completely explained) then it can only be beneficial for us all to understand how this happens. It would certainly be a breakthrough in medicine if we could recreate this healing.

solas

with reference to start trek I used it as an example of the theory behind telekenetics. He wanted to know about the concept behind magic and as far as I can see its the best explanation I can give. (in my understanding/laymans terms)

mysteria

Your sources please?

Kernel

mysteria wrote:

1. "Magick is manipulation of Energy to produce a specific result"

Your reply tells us nothing we cant find in a magical text book, but we expect more these days, I'm afraid. What is the energy you manipulate, how do you manipulate it? What is the mechanism of manipulating the energy? Have you used drugs or other mind altering substances to carry out any 'manipulation'?

Kernel

mysteria wrote:

Your sources please?

For the telekinesis experiments? I would have to consult my library for that I'm afraid. Since you doubt that, can you provide corroborative data in support carried out under scientifically controlled conditions whereby greater telekinesis was observed?

mysteria

Kernel, every ill person I know would agree that they don't care how it happens, once they feel better. It does matter to medical/scientific researchers like myself for statitistical& research purposes but I'm more interested in the wellbeing of the patient.It might be a bit more enlightening to know whats going on if you read some of my earlier posts. When you refer to "you people" and "star trek" leave me out!

mysteria

Sorry Kernel you'll have to score from someone else, I'm all out of drugs. I'm director of an Institute of Parapsychology& Metaphysics since 1984 so if I thought it would benefit you I'd pass on the info you request. But the majority of people here should be on the Skeptics board not the paranormal one.And I'm done with time-wasters.

Kernel

mysteria wrote:

Sorry Kernel you'll have to score from someone else, I'm all out of drugs. I'm director of an Institute of Parapsychology& Metaphysics since 1984 so if I thought it would benefit you I'd pass on the info you request. But the majority of people here should be on the Skeptics board not the paranormal one.And I'm done with time-wasters.

I don't do drugs. The reason I asked is because you mentioned Ibiza and Amsterdam as being two of the places you found enlightenment. The majority of people in this forum are very open minded in my experience, but wont swallow any unsubtantiated claim. Indeed, they are only asking for clarification on metaphysical issues.

Also, do you have a website for your Institute? Where is it located and how many people are involved?

mysteria

And what's your name & address? I have 3 websites actually as I'm involved in several projects. One is based in North Hollywood, 1 in Dublin and 1 outside London. And I have no need to tell lies on a little Irish discussion board.

Zillah

Solas wrote:

doesn't matter to me if its placebo zillah

I mentioned placebos in relation to the chi attacks only. I said nothing about the healing, you're welcome to whatever makes you feel better.

mysteria wrote:

The placebo effect is well-documented, but your ONE example of 1 person's theory is hardly proof now is it??

Checkmate!Back of the net!

Oh yes thoroughly conclusive...a compelling logical argument....

I didn't claim it solved anything. I merely mentioned it as an example. For all your pretensions to academics and science your thought process shows a lack of discipline.

And what's your name & address? I have 3 websites actually as I'm involved in several projects. One is based in North Hollywood, 1 in Dublin and 1 outside London.

Fascinating. Care to give the url for one of your websites?

I'm director of an Institute of Parapsychology& Metaphysics

Truly? Which one? Whats its name? Where is it based? Does it have a website?

stevenmu

Great thread, I love these science Vs the paranormal discussions, and it's nice to see one from the sidelines without having to try and explain my jumbled up understanding of the universe .

Anyway I'm just wondering if someone can explain to me why the placebo effect isn't considered magic ? It seems pretty magical to me, and even if (or more likely when) medical science learns exactly what it is and assigns a big fancy name to, I don't see how that'll change it's nature.

As for technology and magic, to me a lot of technology is magical (and I'd have a better understanding than many how a lot of it works). For example the circuits in a TV detect electromagnetic energy passing by, and amplify and convert this energy to form a picture on the screen. Which brings me to one of my favourite examples of magic, our eyes can pick up the light waves emitted from the TV, or anything else, and convert it to electrical impulses which our brain can process to form an image of the world around us. I'm pretty sure that if I was born blind and lived in a community of completely blind people, unaware that there was such a thing as sight, and somebody came along one day and explained sight to me, I'd think it was magic (either that or I'd think they were crazy ).

Another good example where magick is concerned, is computers. Computers are literally more than sets of on/off switches with logic gates (an AND gate for example means that if switch 1 is on AND switch 2 is on, then switch 3 is turned on or else it's turned off). By combining these switches and logic gates a computer is able to add, subtract and compare sets of binary numbers (01010101, 10101010 etc), by doing enough of these a computer is able to form an 'instruction set' do carry out all kinds of operations on binary numbers and finally by doing enough of these and assigning representations to different binary numbers, computers are capable of doing the incredible things we see them doing today, intricate 3d graphics, complex physics simulations, playing chess and even bulletin boards. The point being that it can utilise the most innocent and humble of operations (switches turning on and off) to create wonderous results, in a way which completely boggles the mind, and others may feel differently but the more I've learnt about them (and I'm a comp. sci. grad), the more my mind boggles.

Where am I going with all this ? I've no idea, I've been christmas shopping and my brain has turned to mush. :v:

Zillah

stevenmu wrote:

without having to try and explain my jumbled up understanding of the universe

[snip]

Where am I going with all this ? I've no idea, I've been christmas shopping and my brain has turned to mush.

lol

solas

hope ya got me something nice

Nevyn

This thread is not the first do go this way on this forum despite it being as
Mysteria pointed out the paranormal forum not the skeptics forum.
This topic would be handled veru differntly in the spirituliy forum or the paganism forum if it was raised there but it wasnt.

Zillah Kernel go read and do and learn for yourselfs instead off having ago at others really.

Zillah

Thaed you'll notice I didn't "have a go" at you. Know why? You essentially said "its my religion and I don't want to discuss it". I respect that, its a belief. Its only when people start A, showing a complete lack of respect or B, misrepresent science, that I "have a go".

Happy christmas and an enjoyable st. stephen's day to ye!!;)

cregser

Just so you know, I'm another curious passer-by. And I don't have the skill to make my point with brevity or the will to iron it out... I'll try though.

I've read the whole thread (but not much at all into magic) and I've noticed two different words that people here are using. I think peoples' preconceptions of magic are clouding their perception of what mysteria is calling magick (which is not in the dictionary btw - spot the cynicism).

My perception of magick is such that it doesn't merit it's own word. It's similarity to the word magic suggests another dimension (if you will) were things can be conjured from nothing (or puppy dog tails). I think we all just under estimate the power of the human mind and it's ability to get things done. I DON'T believe in telekinesis. I DO believe in the power of positive thought and it's ability to achieve things that may seem super human to some. I believe the human mind has enormous power not only to effect the world around itself but also to delude itself.

The world that each person perceives to exist, is only what their senses have told them. If their senses were wrong or ignorant how would they know that anything existed beyond their perceived world? To stretch this a bit (and hopefully make a point), if someone from the 12th century saw a TV, they would perceive magic. If someone willed something to happen and witnessed it happening (maybe a few times), they may perceive something that was barely tangible and call it magick. To spell it out a bit, mysteria, I don't believe that you alone stopped the rain one time. But that your confidence from other stuff you've achieved from positive thought helped you to perceive that you did.

Now that's a very simple argument for something very complicated. Let me just say that I read "Think and grow rich" by Napoleon Hill this summer and this is where my belief in positive thought comes from. Just because I believe in it, it doesn't make it come easy to me. But that book was an education in the power of focused thought (what some may call the application of energy... or magic).

I feel like I may be coming across as arrogantly condescending. But I realise I don't have a doctorate in this field, and would appreciate an educated opinion or response .

CodeMonkey

stevenmu wrote:

GAnyway I'm just wondering if someone can explain to me why the placebo effect isn't considered magic ? It seems pretty magical to me, and even if (or more likely when) medical science learns exactly what it is and assigns a big fancy name to, I don't see how that'll change it's nature.

As for technology and magic, to me a lot of technology is magical (and I'd have a better understanding than many how a lot of it works).

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.

To hide what people are claiming to be magic behind this statement is just plain wrong. You can't just claim every single thing you don't understand as magic or magical when there are many individuals who have the biological or technical knowledge to explain how things work, demonstrate it and teach it.

What people claim as "magic" in most cases cannot be explained, demonstrated or taught but the believers accept as fact. Not a theory on how this might be happening, but fact, this is happening because "I" caused it to happen with my will. Magic. In the case of advanced technology you can at least demonstrate it which is what sceptics ask for. How computers and television work is not actually that hard to understand. You certainly don't need to be a comp sci grad to do so. Again, everyone can see what these technologies do without understanding how they internally work.

When it comes to magic I don't want explaination and I don't want anyone to teach me for the moment...just show me tuvok already!

solas

I'll page him and see if he's available but I think he's on bridge duty tonight.

CodeMonkey

solas wrote:

I'll page him and see if he's available but I think he's on bridge duty tonight.

Heeh, let me clarify. I wanna see a tuvok after his blood was boiled by kes using psychokinetic.

Ozzy

Thaedydal wrote:

This thread is not the first do go this way on this forum despite it being as
Mysteria pointed out the paranormal forum not the skeptics forum....
Zillah Kernel go read and do and learn for yourselfs instead off having ago at others really.

How are they 'having a go at others'? They only want decent answers to the questions asked! --- an effort which, in my eyes anway, has so far been in vain. If you ask me, both you and Mysteria are on an unprovoked ultra-defensive.

Thaedydal wrote:

This topic would be handled veru differntly in the spirituliy forum or the paganism forum if it was raised there but it wasnt.

No you're right it wasn't raised there, so why even say that? That's a very browbeating kind of thing to say, shows bad character in my opinion.

cregser wrote:

I feel like I may be coming across as arrogantly condescending. But I realise I don't have a doctorate in this field, and would appreciate an educated opinion or response .

You may be waiting a while cregser
All the experts are giving are short, vague 'answers' and ambiguous, evasive excuses. No offence but it's true.
"Magick is basically manipulation of Energy to produce a specific result".
Well that's that settled.

I could just as well apply that to anything... What is baking? What is driving? What is pooing?
"Well you unenlightened peasant, baking/driving/pooing is basically manipulation of Energy to produce a specific result, now stop wasting my precious time idiot, there's rain pouring in Dublin"
... Hmm, I guess there is a bit of magic in some of them when you think about it!

Kernel

mysteria wrote:

And what's your name & address? I have 3 websites actually as I'm involved in several projects. One is based in North Hollywood, 1 in Dublin and 1 outside London. And I have no need to tell lies on a little Irish discussion board.

Why should I advertise that? I'm not an institute, I never asked your name. Besides, if you know my true name it will give you a power over me, won't it?

Thaedydal wrote:

Zillah Kernel go read and do and learn for yourselfs instead off having ago at others really.

I'm not having a go at anyone Thaedydal, I'm merely looking for someone to substantiate their claims, once more. Sapien did a better job last time, imo, and still the argument was inconclusive to everyone here - but at least he gave us something.

I'm widely read on the occult, it was an interest of mine, and I have many books on it.

Which one do you suggest I read? Book of the law? Mathers' Kaballa Denudata? Abramelin? John Dee's Enochian texts? Or maybe you believe the Necronomicon is true? How about the book of wicca? Have you read them all? Have you read many books on conventional science?

You can choose to believe what you want to believe, but don't presume they are true because you've read a book on an ancient Wiccan religion and take it as the truth because it fits your own paradigm - without exploring any others. I at least have explored.

Kernel

If mysteria makes it snow in Dublin on Christmas day, then we'll believe.

stevenmu

CodeMonkey wrote:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.

To hide what people are claiming to be magic behind this statement is just plain wrong. You can't just claim every single thing you don't understand as magic or magical when there are many individuals who have the biological or technical knowledge to explain how things work, demonstrate it and teach it.

I don't know a lot about magic(k) but I suspect that if you took a definition of science and one of magic(k) and contrasted them, you'd find that they're two different ways of looking at the same thing.

Kernel wrote:

Or maybe you believe the Necronomicon is true?

mysteria mentioned this earlier too, I thought it was generally accepted to be nothing more than an invention by Lovecraft, and that the later books of the same name are works of fiction capitolising on it's noteriety. Am I wrong or is there some secret information being released on this public board ?

stevenmu

solas wrote:

hope ya got me something nice

Course I did, but it's a surprise*














(*i.e. no )

solas

If mysteria makes it snow in Dublin on Christmas day, then we'll believe.

I suggest you take a look at the weather forum. I'm certainly hoping for some snow in Waterford.

I think its time to re establish the order of the topic, the question concerns the truth of magic(k) and those who gave their opinions are not under any obligation to be tested, or condemned for their values. As it is the paranormal forum, (note: not the skeptics society) these issues are open to analysis for the purpose of understanding and sharing of information. It is not here to satisfy anyones need to condemn or criticise others, because of what they think feel or believe.
If you don't believe or do not understand the concepts, question that and not the person.

keep it above board and keep an open mind.

Nevyn

Kernel wrote:

How about the book of wicca?

There is no book of wicca but if you would like a few recamendations I will be happy to make a few for you.

Kernel wrote:

You can choose to believe what you want to believe, but don't presume they are true because you've read a book on an ancient Wiccan religion and take it as the truth because it fits your own paradigm - without exploring any others. I at least have explored.

That is awfully presumptious of you, you have no way of knowing what I have explored or where my intrests lie.

It seems that all some people want is for some one to preform for them so that they can be poked, pestered and pulled at.
There are no easy or quick answers if you want to know go find out for yourself.

Kernel

Thaedydal wrote:

There is no book of wicca but if you would like a few recamendations I will be happy to make a few for you.

Yes there is:

http://www.barronseduc.com/0764154001-.html

Thaedydal wrote:

That is awfully presumptious of you, you have no way of knowing what I have explored or where my intrests lie.

You're the one who is being presumptuous by telling myself and Zillah to go and do some reading to educate ourselves, unfortunately, you weren't to know that I've read dozens of books on the occult and paranormal over the years.

Thaedydal wrote:

There are no easy or quick answers if you want to know go find out for yourself.

Sorry, but that's a bollocks answer. The whole purpose of a forum is to find and share information, the problem with the hermetics here is that they have no real information to share, or none that stands up to any kind of logical scrutiny. I ask you again, what should we consult to find out for ourselves?

mysteria

Kernel you're obviously intelligent and well read (mind you I would recommend Books on Wicca by Gerald Gardner, Alex and Maxine Sanders, Laurie Cabot, Stewart(r.i.p)and Janet Farrar rather than what you recommend)
What you fail to realise is that I have been writing working and studying this field for many years. I also read cookery books but that does'nt make me a chef. And I'm a football fan but that doesnt make me a soccer player....even though I know the offside rule. If I wrote on the board about my career as a chef or sportsman no one would attack(unless they supported a different team). Zillah reads the dictionary but does'nt understand the words (uness they'e insults). Why ask questions and not even bother to see if you can comprehend the concepts? To nitpick and be judgemental may be fun to you both but believe me what you're writing reflects on you, not us. And by the way Thaedy and I are not coming from the same place, but are united in our life-philosophy.So try reading with an open mind. There are no prizes here for whoever outsmarts the other.And no professional, from any field, explains methods and techniques to unqualified people in a public forum. Initiates are bound by oath not to reveal certain things as anyone knows who claims any knowledge in this field.

Kernel

stevenmu wrote:

mysteria mentioned this earlier too, I thought it was generally accepted to be nothing more than an invention by Lovecraft, and that the later books of the same name are works of fiction capitolising on it's noteriety. Am I wrong or is there some secret information being released on this public board ?

Most people believe it's a fabrication, or invention by Lovecraft, but may have been inspired in places by other books. The key fact here is that there is no evidence of the book, and Lovecraft himself admitted he made it up for his Cthulhu mythos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necronomicon

I own a copy of the book released in the 70's, and there is much ritual magic in it, looks to me like it was inspired by the Key of Solomon, an ancient ritualistic grimoire which used protective circles, amulets and summonings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_of_Solomon