Magic!

Zillah · 23-12-2005 7:14am #1

Alright ladies and gentlemen, magic! I would like to know about your magic. Specifically Sapien and Mysteria but anyone else that wants to chime in, please do.

So, my two Hermetics, you can do magic. Now im not asking for the secrets of the Hermetic order or any such thing. What I am interested in is:

1 - Roughly, how does magic work?
2 - What specific magic spells have you cast in the past?
3 - What were the results?
4 - How did you get into magic? Did it take some convincing or did you always believe in magic?
5 - Can anyone do it?
6 - Why hasn't science accepted the existance of magic if it has tangible/repeatable results?

Thank you.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 12:46pm

Well Zillah, to me Magick is basically manipulation of Energy to produce a specific result. Can't speak for Sapien, but my path found me rather than vice versa. My original intention was to study medicine, but at 14 I met and was taught yoga by a pupil of Paramahansa Yogananda (who wrote "Autobiography of a Yogi"). I was living in the Caribbean at the time, studied Obeah, Voudon, Santeria & Candomble in the Islands and Venezuela. Then at 17, while holidaying in Amsterdam I met a Hermetic initiate, joined an order and after 5 years (of summers in Amsterdam and practising at home) became an Adept. Then became 3rd degree Wiccan, was invited to join a couple of groups I can't mention in Ibiza, and when I came home set up a research Institute of Parapsychology & Metaphysics in '84 ( you'll have gathered by now that I'm 5,000+yrs old).Currently waiting to see if I get into the U.S. O.T.O.(been in the UK one in the 80's) and Knights Templars. I've taken the bits that suit me from everything I've learned, and formulated my own "Metaphysical Psychology" which I now use solely for teaching and healing, and hopefully to inpire and motivate people. Can't give specific spells in a public forum, but I'd say every spell is successful to a lesser or greater extent, and a lot of contributory factors can affect the outcome. Magick, Psi Energy or whatever you want to call it, is natural and we all possess abilities in this field. But like every talent, e.g. music or art, some people are born with more ability than others. And because it requires dedication, commitment and hard work, some very talented people don't develop it. Magickal Energy flows naturally within us anyway, and often manifests in our daily lives (often cunningly disguised as "coincidence" or dismissed as "imagination". Re Science accepting its existence, we tend to define "Science" as an absolute which it isn't. Many Scientists are open to the concept, many research these fields, and a lot of what has now become Science is, when you analyze it, Magick. Like the ability to change weather. But too many people are afraid to acknowledge this for fear of skepticism. Because it is "natural" it does'nt feel like I'm different to others, or that what I do is unusual. Today's Magick is tomorrow's Science.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 1:33pm

You havn't really answered my questions... (specifically the first three)

mysteria · 23-12-2005 1:49pm

O.K. I'll "spell" it out as you've obviously not really read what i hoped was a helpful reply..
1. "Magick is manipulation of Energy to produce a specific result"
2. "Can't give specific spells in a public forum"
3."Every spell is successful to a lesser or greater extent, and a lot of contributory factors can affect the outcome".
I'm attempting to cram a lifetime's learning into a few sentences. We are talking about Esoteric, Arcane, Occult studies and those words all mean "hidden or secret". Try asking a priest to explain and prove his work. Sorry, I'd turn you into a frog to prove my point lol but I'm no Uri Geller. I'd prefer to mend a sore back than bend a spoon!

Nevyn · 23-12-2005 1:51pm

1 - Roughly, how does magic work?

Through using your will and engery to work with other engeries.
It is not a maths forumla. Plus there are things you can not change and should not change the universe doedn't like people messing it about.
You won't get magic to change the colour of your car, really there are paints
for that.

2 - What specific magic spells have you cast in the past?

That is private and personal matter as I do magical work in a religious context.
No I am not sharing.

3 - What were the results?

As I work with in a religious context invoking my Gods to be guided by them
there are times I do NOT get what I have worked and willed for same as a child crying for a knife.
Some times things work out exactly as they should other times it is a case
of becareful what you wish for as you will get exactly that.

4 - How did you get into magic? Did it take some convincing or did you always believe in magic?

I always believe in what I was able to do from a young age wishing and willing
for something or certain things to happen.
Then I went of reading and found out that there was a lot more to it then that.

5 - Can anyone do it?

No

There are many, many types of magical workings and areas of magic.
Some with deity some with out all of then very differnt.
Some of them work for some people and there are people for whom none of them work.
It is a talent like singing. anyone can hum and learn all about music and train thier ear but either they can carry a tune well or they can't

6 - Why hasn't science accepted the existance of magic if it has tangible/repeatable results?

I would suggest that you go read some of Laurie Cabots books on the science of magic. It is rather funny how the hermetic laws that are seen as laws of magic which was the old science are being reviewed as physists are finding more and more out about wave/particle engery.
The magical pratices that are connectied with Deity will never be ablt to be confirmed as science would dictate but then again there have been studies
on the effect of pray on those that are healing after opertaions so who know
where it will go.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 1:57pm

Ok so Thaed can't share for religious reasons, but whats holding you back Mysteria? Im not asking for a step by step guide on how to actually do a spell, I mean just vaguely as to whats involved. Do you mix potions, pray to spirits, meditate, what? As for results, can you conjure fire, move things with your mind, heal injuries?

You define magic as "manipulation of energy to produce a specific result." Surely the vast majority of technology counts as magic by that definition?

mysteria · 23-12-2005 2:01pm

Merry Meet & Bright Yuletide Blessings Thaedydal.

Nevyn · 23-12-2005 2:02pm

Zillah some things you can only understand by doing.
Each of those is a process and each has a learning curve and insights that you only get by doing.
They are called the Magic Arts as it is an art that is how everyone does it is
slightly different.
If you are really that curious and intrested I suggest you start reading about
the differnt types of magic and thier histories, then choose one and do some more research and then try one that feels right for you .

Thank you Mysteria
May the retrun of the sun bring into you life the warmth and engery for all you need this coming seasons.
Merry Yule.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 2:22pm

Thaedydal wrote:

Zillah some things you can only understand by doing.

Thats a bit convenient...

mysteria · 23-12-2005 2:27pm

Glad you got the point re technology/ Magickal Energy. Nothing is holding me back except Spiritual rather than religious reasons. I thought my answer made that clear. What is the point of becoming an initiate and then giving out Arcane knowledge to strangers in public notice boards. you want to know more? Go study like we did. Try reading the works of Eliphas Levi, McGregor Mathers (no not Eminem's dad), Wynn Westcott, Dion Fortune, Israel Regardie,Robert Graves, I could go on and on. Or "The Book of the Sacred Magick of Abramelin the Mage", the Necronomicon, the Grimoire of Armadel etc etc etc. It's a little simplistic to expect anyone to explain or prove "Magick", or indeed any field, when you appear to ask questions based on a confirmational bias rather than a real desire to learn for interest in the subject or even love of knowledge!

Nevyn · 23-12-2005 2:48pm

Zillah wrote:

Thats a bit convenient...

No it is decidedly inconvient. If it was concienient and easy everyone would be able to do it.

It is like making an apple tart.
You may have the exact resipe that your great granny used,
and pretty good intstuctions but you will never be able to quanitify just how
much extra flour is needed to turn the pastry out of the bowl, or how much iis need for kneeding.
You have to learn the feel of the pastry and learn to know when it will not strech any further.
You have to learn to be able to judge how much sugar or honey is needed based on the tartness of the apples.
You have to learn when to take the tart out of the oven based on the look, feel and smell of it not what the timer says.
And sometimes you only come to know how much of a big mess you have made in the process of doing something is when you have to clean it up.
And end of the day some people just can't bake at all or make an apple tart with out burning it.

Despite making damn fine apple tarts I have had some planned that never happend, others fall apart, burn crumble,
get dropped being taken out of the oven or fallen off the table never to be eaten.

The sum of the knowledge I have about apple tarts is mine.
Some of it may seem unnesssary to you, some of it may never happen to you
some of it will never make sense to you as it will only make sense to me a lone
or other people who have had the same thing happen to them.

All of the above can be said about magic.
It is an art but it is also a craft. Craftspeople don't share thier crafting knowledge with just anyone,
with other crafters who have some simular experices maybe but not curious passers by.

It's a bit like Bones trying to get Spook to talk about being dead and Spook replying that they don't have a common frame of reference.
The same goes with magic.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 2:49pm

I've made it quite clear that Im not asking for any secrets or useable information, I ask just out of curiosity as to what it is you do.

Can you heal people?
Can you conjure fire?
Can you tell the future?

How would answering any of those questions compromise anything?

(Bear in mind that you can just say "I don't want to discuss it" and we'll leave it there, but if you are going to discuss it I'm not going to tip toe around the issue.)

EDIT: Re apple tarts, at least in that scenario that I can understand the process is A - Decide to make a tart, B - Make tart, C -Result; delicious apple tart.

In regards to magic, my understanding so far is, well, the word "magic" and thats it.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 2:57pm

OK. At the risk of sounding conceited (another reason for my reticence) I have publicly (and I really mean publicly) proved Yes to questions I and 3. Re fire, I've never tried to. But have stopped rain when I felt it was absolutely necessary. Real practitioners don't like boasting about their abilities, and don't use them to perform party tricks, to astound people. I have no need to prove myself to anyone. My work speaks for itself.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 3:04pm

Care to hint at how these things were managed?

Nevyn · 23-12-2005 3:07pm

Can you heal people?

I have done healing work yes, but you can't interfer with another wyrd that
is the path and the life lessons that other people have to learn and in many cases endure. An it harm none do what you will.

Can you conjure fire?

yes , so can my 5 year old daughter when she picked up a box of matches her grandfather left down.
A lighter will do the same thing just as well.
Why would you try and create fire via engertic and magicl means is beyond me
and there is the theory that fire being one of the orginal 5 elements that it can not be created in such a fashion anyway.

Can you tell the future?

There are many furtures, we have free will and the choices we make and the things we choose not to do effect out lives every day.
I do believe that there are certain events and things in our lives that are ment
to happen to help shape who are to be in this life time and to do with karma.
Some of these can be diserned.

Zillah wrote:

In regards to magic, my understanding so far is, well, the word "magic" and thats it.

Well then I do suggest you take a good look at Msyteria's last post as she has
some good recmendations for book there and get reading.

Nevyn · 23-12-2005 3:13pm

Zillah wrote:

Care to hint at how these things were managed?

Same as any other crafts person with application of abilty, talent, knowledge, research and experience.
Some things are instictive and relfex others are not. That is the way of it.

I think I have been as forthcoming on this topic as you are going to get Zillah.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 3:19pm

I'm not sure this will be of any help to you, as your detached cynicism contradicts your stubborn persistence and I try to help people who I feel BENEFIT in some way.
1. Breathing techniques help to induce varying degrees of trance that enable us to access subconscious Energy.
2. Concentration and focus of Will to a specific intent
3.Unconditional desire to create positive change
4. Advanced Visualisation techniques.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 3:24pm

mysteria wrote:

I'm not sure this will be of any help to you, as your detached cynicism contradicts your stubborn persistence and I try to help people who I feel BENEFIT in some way.

Thats not fair, and its downright hypocrytical. I might not agree with your beliefs but I don't judge you, I'd like you to do the same.

And I'm not cynical, I'm sceptical, and there is a very important difference and you'd do well to note that.

Oryx · 23-12-2005 3:27pm

I have no knowledge of magic, but this is interesting. I accept what your trying to do Zillah - get magician/wiccans/whatever to 'prove' they can do things not scientifically accepted as possible. Tricky in this arena! But I think the common (erroneous) perception of magic might have more to do with Charmed and Bewitched than real practice. I may be wrong maybe Thaed and Mysteria will correct me, but Id have thought that the effects may be a bit more subtle than they appear on tv, and if not like any discipline it may require years of study.And you really dont want just anyone who reads an internet forum doing it.:)

Zillah · 23-12-2005 3:31pm

KatieK wrote:

I have no knowledge of magic, but this is interesting. I accept what your trying to do Zillah - get magician/wiccans/whatever to 'prove' they can do things not scientifically accepted as possible. Tricky in this arena! But I think the common (erroneous) perception of magic might have more to do with Charmed and Bewitched than real practice. I may be wrong maybe Thaed and Mysteria will correct me, but Id have thought that the effects may be a bit more subtle than they appear on tv, and if not like any discipline it may require years of study

You got my point in a round about sort of way. I don't expect anyone to prove anything. What I was asking for was for people to help me understand how things work outside of Charmed and Bewitched.

And you really dont want just anyone who reads an internet forum doing it.:)

I've said repeatidly that I'm not looking for enough details for that.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 3:32pm

The last thing anyone would call me is hypocritical, I'm brutally blunt as you've seen. From where I'm standing, Thaedydal and I have really tried to answer your questions in a helpful and informative manner and we just get cynical, confrontational replies.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 3:36pm

Well said, KatyK

Zillah · 23-12-2005 3:38pm

mysteria wrote:

The last thing anyone would call me is hypocritical

Well I do. You're a hypocrite. You condemn me personally for asking questions about your practices, and yet If I were to do the same I'd be lambasted. Hell, your assaulting me for even daring to not instantly accept vague half answers.

I'm brutally blunt as you've seen. From where I'm standing, Thaedydal and I have really tried to answer your questions in a helpful and informative manner and we just get cynical, confrontational replies.

I thought that up til now I've been quite polite actually, and I made it quite clear that if you didn't want to discuss it you were under no compulsion to do so. And if you'll become hostile at such imagined provocation then maybe you shouldn't discuss it.

And once again I'll ask you to note the difference between cynical and sceptical.

EDIT:

Oryx · 23-12-2005 3:43pm

mysteria wrote:

The last thing anyone would call me is hypocritical, I'm brutally blunt as you've seen. From where I'm standing, Thaedydal and I have really tried to answer your questions in a helpful and informative manner and we just get cynical, confrontational replies.

Mysteria, believe me Zillah and I have argued rings round in a similar way but on a different subject. Ive come to the conclusion that the real problem is trying to discuss a subject like this in an internet forum. Its too hard to say whats really going on as its public, and its very easy to misunderstand someones intention (thats why the smilies are there to soften the blow:) )

mysteria · 23-12-2005 3:44pm

And your qualifications are..........?Don't insult people who have spent time and effort trying to help!End of!

Ozzy · 23-12-2005 3:46pm

In fairness, you didn't answer Zillah's questions... and I don't know how you interpretted any post as being cynical or confrontational when they were neither (in my opinion).

Zillah · 23-12-2005 3:49pm

mysteria wrote:

End of!

Delighted!

Thaed, thank you for sharing, Katie, thank you for proferring your always present olive branch.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 3:51pm

Thanks Katy, It's always hard to discuss what appears to be an intangible subject. I know everyone is different, but I for one would be really grateful to anyone who tried to help me understand concepts I knew nothing about. And I can't see the point in personal attacks. Have a very Merry Yuletide & a Prosperous 2006.

solas · 23-12-2005 3:53pm

Zillah, you should start watching star trek.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 3:55pm

In fairness, I did answer the questions.(see my no. 13) and tried to help.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 3:57pm

mysteria wrote:

And I can't see the point in personal attacks.

But...but...you're the one that dismissed my questions as cynical and confrontational!

Sometimes I just don't get people...

solas wrote:

Zillah, you should start watching star trek.

Not in the mood my dear... :mad:

mysteria · 23-12-2005 4:04pm

Zillah to me! "Well I do. You're a hypocrite. You condemn me personally for asking questions about your practices, and yet If I were to do the same I'd be lambasted. Hell, your assaulting me for even daring to not instantly accept vague half answers."
Ah poor baby, I rest my case!

solas · 23-12-2005 4:08pm

zillah wrote:

Sometimes I just don't get people...

Bear with me for a minute.
There was an episode of voyager where Kes was beginning to develop her psychokinetic abilites. Tanis starts teachin her to move objects with her mind. when she demostrates this to Tuvok, she causes his blood temperature to rise and causes him to go into shock. (Cold Fire) The episode in a way gives an idea into how these things are achieved. Kes was able to integrate on a molecular level with the objects that she focused on. Be these rain clouds or water, once integrated she could do one of many things, she could begin molecular friction which caused Tuvoks blood to heat up, or in theory cause rain clouds to disperse.

Now, ithats a lot of science fiction but it comes close to the explaining in theory how some of this kind of "magic" is achieved.
but as to how its all done the answer is quite simple, it all comes down to faith.

{the concept of divine grace is more important to me though}

Zillah · 23-12-2005 4:13pm

For someone who can see the future you really dont understand order of events very well do you Mysteria...

Ah poor baby, I rest my case!

And "hypocrite" isn't so much an insult as it is a criticism, a criticism I stand by. Now "hostile cow", thats an insult.

Solas wrote:

Bear with me for a minute.
There was an episode of voyager

I remember that episode. Now that I think of it, why didn't the crew run all sorts of fancy brian scans to work out how she did it...

mysteria · 23-12-2005 4:17pm

That's actually a very good example of how Magick works Solas, telekinesis is scientifically recorded as an ability possessed by some.(The ability to move objects by mental concentration).The over-heating bit is Sci-Fi with no Scientific basis (to my knowledge anyway). I know some of the star trek authors, they live in Wicklow, and do their research (that's writers of the current and recent series, not the Golden Oldies)

solas · 23-12-2005 4:18pm

I remember that episode. Now that I think of it, why didn't the crew run all sorts of fancy brian scans to work out how she did it...

as far as I know it was a very acceptable form of ..eh..being for some species. Tuvok is vulcan and vulcans are known for their ability to respect the unseen higher levels of energy, he was teaching kess how to control or disciplne these abilties through meditation.
Ther are a history of species who operate on these levels, from betaziods to the Q and you just know theres no point in scanning the q's brain. In other instances Deanna has been the subject of experiemnts when necessary.

btw zillah, thers no need to for personal abuse, I dont really feel I should have to explain this to you at this stage. Consider this a warning and take a deep breath.

solas · 23-12-2005 4:21pm

mysteria wrote:

I know some of the star trek authors, they live in Wicklow, and do their research

I did not know that. very interesting.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 4:21pm

mysteria wrote:

telekinesis is scientifically recorded as an ability possessed by some.(The ability to move objects by mental concentration).

Bullshit. Ordinarily I'd sugar coat that but im in no mood for it. You are wrong. What rag have you been reading?

mysteria · 23-12-2005 4:30pm

Now you might be able to understand why we are reluctant to share Arcane wisdom with the un-initiated. Some start out as apparently intelligent,interested individuals who might gain a little more insight into an admittedly confusing field. But the the real persona emerges when they don't get their way. So for everyone out there who wants to learn Magickal Fire-making, I suggest you buy a box of matches and stop bothering people who work for free in hospitals trying to bring comfort and healing to dying cancer patients, and spend time trying to encourage interested talented young people to develop their skills. I've posted for the benefit of everyone who reads the board, not just the one who asked the questions!
And I'm just a fun-lovin' spiritual party animal.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 4:32pm

Try reading books by Russell Targ and Keith Harary. If you have time between insults.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 4:37pm

Now its my turn.(and remember you don't have to answer if you don't want to.
1. Are you over 13yrs old?(If not you're forgiven)
2. What are your academic qualifications?
3. How many books have you written?
4.From what source did you get your enlightening information re Telekinesis
5.Can you levitate?

Zillah · 23-12-2005 4:38pm

Oh please, you're so insecure in your beliefs that you dismiss questions as cynical and confrontational. You, my little hermetic, were the one to become confrontational. I'd show you more respect if you'd deign to return the favour.

And in a forum discussion it is wholly insufficient to offhandedly mention an author or two when making a claim such as telekenesis has been scientifically proven.

CodeMonkey · 23-12-2005 4:38pm

You guys really don't see what zillah or a lot of sceptics have asked before do you? We're not saying magic isn't real. We're saying great, magic can be used to make all these things happen like you guys claimed. We don't care how it works at the moment, lets just establish that it works. Show us some results like a Tuvok who's blood was boiled.

You've healed someone? Great, showus their medical records before your treatment and the medical records after a treatment. This is not a challenge to you or asking for proof. It's just the only way we can see that someone really was healed by your magic. There are however always some convient reason why you can't show us the results.

In the world of star trek, if someone tells me Kes used her psychokinetic abilities to boil tuvok's blood I won't believe it. I don't even care how she did it or how it works. Just show me tuvok. Can you show me a tuvok or someone you have directly influenced using abilities outside of my understand? Oh wait, I need to have those abilities before I can see it or believe it? Damn, that's convenient...

Zillah · 23-12-2005 4:42pm

mysteria wrote:

1. Are you over 13yrs old?(If not you're forgiven)

Yes, and I require no forgiveness.

2. What are your academic qualifications?

None/ irrelevant.

3. How many books have you written?

None/irrelevant.

4.From what source did you get your enlightening information re Telekinesis

Where did you get your information that people aren't a hundred feet tall?

5.Can you levitate?

Not to my knowledge.

solas · 23-12-2005 4:45pm

code monkey wrote:

Show us some results like a Tuvok who's blood was boiled.

I'm really only a participant in the discussion, I haven't made any claims. While the example you gave is from a science fiction series, I'm sure if you do a google you will find a lot of the techniques by zen monks or other hghly trained martial artists use a similar based concept of being able to control their chi to the extent that reduces physical harm to their bodies or can repel an attack. Or something like that. I'm not in the mood for googling to find out.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 4:52pm

solas wrote:

I'm really only a participant in the discussion, I haven't made any claims. While the example you gave is from a science fiction series, I'm sure if you do a google you will find a lot of the techniques by zen monks or other hghly trained martial artists use a similar based concept of being able to control their chi to the extent that reduces physical harm to their bodies or can repel an attack. Or something like that. I'm not in the mood for googling to find out.

I think he was just borrowing your Tuvok metaphor to represent a tangible example of a magical result.

In reference to monks and chi, I've actually learned a good bit about this. A monk that can smash rocks with his fist may think he's using chi, but what they do can be explained with psychology and biology.

There was one example where a master used directed chi blasts to knock people out without even touching them. To test his claims a psychologist submitted himself to the technique and it had no effect on him. His explanation was that the collapsing students was a result of the power of suggestion. All the demonstrations of the techniques were done in a group environment between dominant master and supplicant students.

solas · 23-12-2005 4:58pm

I'll have a look later on see if I can find what I'm talking about. I know of a guy who (doctor, raised by monks) who can do some amazing things. One of his students was showing off one day so he handed him his knife which he (the student) was messing about with and told him to make his move. He (teacher) deliberately didn't make a move when the student took a swipe and landed one on him, but the blade left no mark. His skin didn't break at all after receiving what would ordinarily have caused a sever puncture wound.

[re reading that I don't know if I explained it very well, but you get the gist]

mysteria · 23-12-2005 5:03pm

I have dozens of Doctors I work with because I have medical qualifications as well, and have lectured in Trinity and several hospitals.I joined this discussion originally because I felt there might be people who would like advice from an expert in this field (I have two Doctorates as well as other qualifications), not to "prove the existence" of any powers or abilities. There are so many people out there with an interest in the paranormal, and all that's on offer is the TV Derk Acorah's and Uri Geller-type showmen. But that does not in any way take away from the fact that this field is a Science. I found a missing body in New Jersey for the FBI in'91, but I'm aware of the hundreds of "fortune tellers and so-called psychics" who are total chancers who should not be allowed take money from vulnerable people. My aim is to help others discover that we have inner resources we can develop and use to improve quality of life. Not to prove that I have Magickal powers (which I have, but don't need to prove it as my record is extremely well documented)
So hope this explains where I'm coming from. I respect your beliefs, but I don't expect anything from any of you. If there are people genuinely interested, feel free to ask and I'll help all I can.

Zillah · 23-12-2005 5:08pm

mysteria wrote:

feel free to ask and I'll help all I can.

Oh I'm not opening that pandora's box again.

mysteria · 23-12-2005 5:11pm

It was'nt directed at you. Ignorance is bliss! There's always one........

solas · 23-12-2005 5:13pm

mysteria wrote:

I joined this discussion originally because I felt there might be people who would like advice from an expert in this field

I'd like some healing if you can offer it.

Magic!

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