ULSU - yay or nay

bluedolphin · 22-11-2005 1:19am #1

righteo, i was gonna start ranting bout the SU in the thread about Scholars but i decided that it could then get a few rants in return and i'd be given out to for going off topic so i've decided to go mad and start a new thread.

Basically, the SU - yaaaaay......? or naaaaaaaaay?

i am a fairly active member in the SU myself; im a class rep, i write a lot for the paper, i know the place and people working there fairly well as well as how its run, etc.

but

i understand where people are coming from when they say that the SU is an elitist clique that doesn't represent the students.

However

my rebuttal to this is....how can they when no student will tell them what to do? it becomes elitist because only a small few give a ****e about what happens, so that small few get involved and that small few have their say.

Most students in UL don't know what the SU does, its policies or why its really there tbh bar rag week.

i'm not saying the SU is wonderful, because it definitely isn't. there's something wrong when students couldn't name another SU president apart from eoin o'broin, when students couldn't be arsed going to AGMs (these used attract well over quorum years ago), when students and the SU are not synonymous. somehow, over the years, the SU has lost the support of the student population at large.

despite this, i do really think that the SU is there for the benefit of students. i think that any individual student will only truly realise the use of the SU when he/she actually needs it for something. true, you can't win over the popular support of the masses by only helping what seems like a handful of individual cases per annum, considering the size and traffic through the university, but this silent work in the background is invaluable to students. in particular i think the roles of the welfare officer and the education officer are vital. these positions are primarily there to assist students in difficulty - and they do assist students.

most people wouldn't realise how often the services of the SU are utilised. there are hundreds of cases dealt with each semester. counselling, advice, grant information, i-grades, repeats, appeals, dickhead lecturers....................since the most of students want solutions to their problems handed to them on a plate, how else would they get them?

.......buy a roll recently? that's run by the SU. Been to the stables/sports club recently? that's partially run by the SU. played pool in the games room or relaxed in the common room? SU again. bought a second hand book this semester? yeah, in the SU - the only place that operates such an option. member of a club or society? look at that, SU once more.

who is currently campaigning so that i-grade/repeat 4th year students will be able to graduate with their class and not in the following December? who is reviewing the blasted alcohol policy so that students may be encouraged back on campus? who is undertaking to look for the university to extend car parking facilities? who insisted that a pedestrian crossing was put in place outside the main gate while the road works are going on? who cares.

who needs the SU. not you anyway.

Yay or Nay? :rolleyes:

p.s. rant over.

klong · 22-11-2005 2:06am

I don't think the problem of apathy is a UL-exclusive problem; other colleges have such difficulties also.

Has the SU looked into why there is such a problem on campus? I havent been in UL since semester 1 last year so forgive my ignorance if that is that case.

Myself, I think the problem is that the country has become wealthier, there are more jobs available for those in college, something that wasn't the case ten or fifteen years ago. Many voluntary organisations have seen a drop in involvement as the economy has improved- people just are too busy to become involved. "Back in the day" it was something to do; today we have far more things that can capture our time and imagination: the internet, consoles, etc.

The SU is a democracy, you can choose to be a part of it or not. Many people choose not to. Same in society as a whole; many people decide not to engage in the democratic process for whatever reasons. As most students as only in UL for four year, why should they care?

As for your examples...never bought a roll, dont really go to stables/sports club bar, never played pool in the games room or been in the common room, havent bought a second-hand book and I'm not a club/soc member...:-)

Duff Man Jr. · 22-11-2005 10:42am

You make it sound like you are doing us a favour by providing a shop and pub, these should be a money making machine, if they are making a loss managment is to blame.
The union does some good things i'm sure but people dont see a lot of it. Parking has been a joke for years, i have to be in at a quarter past 9 or spend half a hour waiting for someone to pull out. Or i could park at the back gate and have a 2 mile hike to the Shuman and back for my one crappy tut.

bluedolphin · 23-11-2005 12:54am

klong wrote:

I don't think the problem of apathy is a UL-exclusive problem; other colleges have such difficulties also.

definitely a national problem; who cares any more?

klong wrote:

The SU is a democracy, you can choose to be a part of it or not. Many people choose not to.

I'm not saying that students should jump wildly at the choice of throwing themselves into the SU, such as becoming class reps or organising SU sleepover parties (why not..!!)..i'm just saying that it wrecks my head when people give out stink about the SU, complaining that it doesn't represent the students. fair enough, it might not represent the students. but why doesn't it? because they couldn't be bothered getting involved. it's a vicious circle.

it annoys me because if it's so unrepresentative, why don't students try to change it and make it representative? if your not going to do something about the problem, then quit whinging about it. imho you don't have the right to complain and moan about the elitism, clique-ness, unrepresentativeness (is that a word?!?) of the SU if you're not bothered to try to change any of its problems. it's complete bull...

klong wrote:

As most students as only in UL for four year, why should they care?

ah sure you're only in life for an average of 70-odd years, why should you care? lie down on the bed, cover yourself with a duvet and don't bother moving for the next few decades. why bother. why should anyone care about anything? four years is a long time, ask anyone waiting for a transplant.

Duff Man Jr. wrote:

You make it sound like you are doing us a favour

firstly, it's not me personally, its the SU. and secondly, as a student of UL, you are automatically a member of the SU, just like every other student on-campus. therefore maybe that should read, 'you make it sound like we are doing ourselves a favour.' yeah...how terrible that would be.

klong · 23-11-2005 5:45am

ah sure you're only in life for an average of 70-odd years, why should you care? lie down on the bed, cover yourself with a duvet and don't bother moving for the next few decades. why bother. why should anyone care about anything? four years is a long time, ask anyone waiting for a transplant.

Easy there, tiger, I was just trying to put forward an example. Or point. Or something.

I'm not advocating ignoring ULSU.

Why do you do think there is such a problem? I'd like to hear your opinion on this. What are you, as a class rep and contributor to An Focal, doing about it? Not attacking you, just curious.:)

gaf1983 · 23-11-2005 1:21pm

bluedolphin wrote:

'm just saying that it wrecks my head when people give out stink about the SU, complaining that it doesn't represent the students. fair enough, it might not represent the students. but why doesn't it? because they couldn't be bothered getting involved. it's a vicious circle.

it annoys me because if it's so unrepresentative, why don't students try to change it and make it representative? if your not going to do something about the problem, then quit whinging about it. imho you don't have the right to complain and moan about the elitism, clique-ness, unrepresentativeness (is that a word?!?) of the SU if you're not bothered to try to change any of its problems. it's complete bull...

Yeah that vicious circle argument is a good point, kind of somes up why there is so little involvement in the SU this year, although I don't think it's altoghether fair when you say that those students that don't get involved don't do so because they aren't bothered - while this is the case for many that aren't involved, there are also those that don't get involved either because they feel they don't have the time or those that are put of by the perception that the su is a cliqueish, elitist organisation. I suppose as klong said in his post apathy is part of a wider societal problem of declining voluntarism- this is the kind of stuff Robert Putman, Bertie Ahern's favourite guru of the day, goes on about in his book, Bowling Alone.

I know that in some universities with a similar population to UL they decided to make the student's union a volulntary organisation - i.e. you wouldn't automatically become a member on enrolling as a student - and they found that only about 200 students out of a population of roughly 10,000 would join. This figure probably equates with the numbers of UL students actively involved in SU politics. Or maybe it doesn't. Anyway, would you propose that they adopt a similar setup in UL?

invincibleirish · 23-11-2005 2:04pm

one of the things that annoyed me most about the ULSU last year was the nepotism that comes with the 'elected' officers, it annoyed me so much in fact i wrote a letter to an focal complaining about it(needless to say it didnt get published):

'i believe it to be an absolute travesty that the new student union president was elected unopposed, this is unhealthy for the union because at least a proper election for the union might have raised UL students from their very apparent apathy to the machinations of the student union.whilst there is no disrespect intended to the incumbent president Mr. Fintan Breen surely an exception could not have been made and an extension given for candidates to come forward for the post,this extension combined with more promotion of the office might at least encourage one other soul to come forward, could it not have killed the SU to do something other then place ads in an Focal? surely an email to all students at the very least and a more aggressive postering campaign around the college should have been done in other to entice candidates,failing that, surely a ballot could still have been held where Mr. Breens name and re-open nomination (ron) could have been on the ballot to at least give voters some say in who should be their SU president?.the SU has an important impact on students lives and it owes the students,who individually give the SU a hefty sum out of their registration fee every year,an attempt to get them more involved in the election of the president then it already has.'

the cliquey vibe from the UlSU reached its nadir last year when fintan breen(who was already an officer) became president unopposed.

what struck me last year was that if a prez candidate campaigned on a single issue, the issue being of extra lighting and security in the college being provided they would have been onto a vote winner.if i were running now for ULSU prez it would be the starting point of my campaign.if a potential candidate does come up with this idea dont forget to namecheck me!!

klong · 23-11-2005 2:05pm

I know that in some universities with a similar population to UL they decided to make the student's union a volulntary organisation - i.e. you wouldn't automatically become a member on enrolling as a student - and they found that only about 200 students out of a population of roughly 10,000 would join. This figure probably equates with the numbers of UL students actively involved in SU politics. Or maybe it doesn't. Anyway, would you propose that they adopt a similar setup in UL?

How does that work exactly- does the whole student body benefit from the work of the SU (which becomes, in reality, another club or soc on campus)?
At least there is a solid core of committed members in place, who would be willing to put in the time and effort to get results; the quorum could be reduced meaning things could actually be done! I was at the AGM when I was in 2nd year (I think)...around 70 people turned up and the audience was told to round up more people so a quorum could be reached- I was one of those "rounded up"...still only got to 90ish and the AGM, in reality, became little more than a talking shop as now decisions could be taken.

gaf1983 · 23-11-2005 5:47pm

klong wrote:

How does that work exactly- does the whole student body benefit from the work of the SU (which becomes, in reality, another club or soc on campus)?

I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I was a class rep last year and at the certificate presentation ceremony last may jeremy callaghan from the student affairs was saying that they brought that system into a university he had been in in new zealand. he seemed to be saying that that system didn't really work and he was praising the ulsu system where everyone's a member because even though there will only be a minority that get involved in the decision making process hopefully their work should benefit the wider student communit - i think he was saying that the othere system where they make membership voluntary is flawed in that the su would become even less representative.

bluedolphin · 23-11-2005 6:42pm

klong wrote:

Easy there, tiger

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

klong wrote:

What are you, as a class rep and contributor to An Focal, doing about it? Not attacking you, just curious.:)

as a class rep i actually attend council meetings, i'm in 2nd year, i was a rep last year as well, i think i've missed about 2 meetings as far as i can remember, i wouldn't guarantee it, but definitely not more than 3/4. i contribute to these meetings, i regularly speak on behalf of my class and argue against the sabbats/SU exec/whoever if i believe what they put forward is not in the best interests of students.

i also regularly update my class via email, etc., and i'm currently tackling an issue that has cropped up regarding assignments, this involves me liasing between TAs/lectures/my class. it takes time, but i genuinely believe that with this particular problem the students are not being treated fairly. if i and my other class rep decided not to say anything about this problem then the university would continue the way it is, which is treating students unfairly and unequally. is that right? should the university be allowed to get away with murder? if it's not checked by class reps/the SU it will.

as a writer for an focal, well being honest i'm really doing that because i'm hoping to go into journalism when im finished :rolleyes: but!! my secondary objective is about informing students what's going on. yes, many students aren't directly involved in the SU but that doesn't mean they're all not interested in what's going on around the campus that affects students. in particular, things like the scholars, university fees...things that have made headlines in an focal, they affect all students whether affiliated with the SU or not.

invincibleirish wrote:

one of the things that annoyed me most about the ULSU last year was the nepotism that comes with the 'elected' officers

eh?!? nepotism? he didn't appoint his brother/sister/mother/father to the job..did he?! is his brother also called fintan?! :eek: you've me all confuddled

as for your letter that wasn't printed in an focal, i agree with every word that you said. it is a disgrace that a position such as the SU president was allowed to be filled without a democratic election. the standing orders of the SU, however, deem it such that if there are no other nominations by the closing time then the sole candidate is deemed elected. it was the same with the non-sabbatical officers' positions this year - none of them were opposed and so all candidates who had put themselves forward were deemed elected. at this stage however, the SU is fortunate enough to get even one cadidate. the first round of elections last semester saw no one running for CCO; two came forward in the second round. but even the coca cola referendum wasn't deemed valid because not enough people voted in it.

invincibleirish, your suggestion that the ballot papers for prez should have been fintan or open nominations....for enough students to turn out in that first ballot to deem it valid enough to re-open nominations and then have a subsequent election between two or more candidates, which would also require students to come out and vote......then i think due to the laws of probability, if that were to run smoothly enough, you'd have probably had had an interested-enough student population to have put forward two (or more) candidates in the first place....if you get what i'm sayin

as for the postering/emailing/etc to inform people of the election, that's the job of the CCO (Campaigns' and Communications' Officer) ... this year's CCO, Anne Sheridan, is planning on having a huge campaign to attract enough students to an EGM that will be held next semester specifically to ratify the new constitution. some CCOs become more involved in the campaigning side of their job than others. (the other aspect of their job is editor of An Focal, which is, believe me, quite time consuming, such that campaigns often get neglected).

invincibleirish wrote:

if i were running now for ULSU prez it would be the starting point of my campaign

why don't you so??? i'll be your PR manager

nominations open next semester!! you can be the "invincible prez".......................

23-11-2005 6:45pm

why dont ye get national representation disaffiliates?;)

bluedolphin · 23-11-2005 7:06pm

Deleted User wrote:

why dont ye get national representation disaffiliates?

eh?!

klong · 23-11-2005 7:35pm

Deleted User wrote:

why dont ye get national representation disaffiliates?;)

I think this refers to the fact that ULSU left USI a number of years ago, a path which a number of other colleges, if they have not already done so, are contemplating doing.

GreenHell · 23-11-2005 8:56pm

The only thing I would use the SU for is already catered for by student services and all I have to do their is go up and ask and bingo problem sorted, same with exam papers department sec's gota give them to you if you ask and are I've found to be very efficent in fallowing up requests.

The stables club is a joke, only got my sticker today so I could buy tickets for christmas daze. Fair enough the SU works away in the backround and I've no doubt with the students best interests at heart but whenever has anyone ever seen a SU rep campaigning for better lighting or security or even campaigning for anything outside of oreintation week. If the SU actual went about engaging the students I'd have a lot more time for it but I've failed to be impressed by its efforts so far.

invincibleirish · 25-11-2005 12:59pm

bluedolphin wrote:

why don't you so??? i'll be your PR manager nominations open next semester!! you can be the "invincible prez".......................

i'd love to but the student union technocrats had me exiled for my insurgent activites(i dropped out), i suppose i should add although im as big a politico as they come student union politics is as lame as a particularly lame mule.

however i have distaste for ULSU for as i said as safety is such a big issue on campus that they havent done more then they have.however i did not vote on the poll.

bluedolphin · 26-11-2005 2:17pm

klong wrote:

I think this refers to the fact that ULSU left USI a number of years ago, a path which a number of other colleges, if they have not already done so, are contemplating doing.

i understand that it might have referred to USI, but i don't know where it came into the debate!! don't get me started on USI, that's a whole different thread!

GreenHell wrote:

same with exam papers department sec's gota give them to you if you ask

the reason they have to give them to you is because the SU mandated the uni to agree to give out exam papers, such that it is now uni policy.

GreenHell wrote:

SU rep campaigning for better lighting or security or even campaigning for anything outside of oreintation week

i think i made this point in an earlier post when i said that campaigns are solely the responsibility of the CCO. there hasn't been a successful campaign at UL since the anti-fees one a few years back (cant remember which CCO it was). but to run a successful campaign you need to know that you'd have student backing. as far as i can see, the 'reclaim the night' demo that took place recently attracted around 100 students. that's a fair number of people, but out a student population of almost 10,000, it's a pitiful 1% of students.

invincibleirish wrote:

safety is such a big issue on campus that they havent done more then they have

i'm going to bring this up in class reps, and say it to the welfare officer. maybe it is time for a postering campaign or something on campus, particularly in light of the incidents recently.
week 10 is SHAG week and there will be a campaign warning students about date-rape and such, as there was an incident a few weeks ago involving a student.
student safety is a priority so perhaps the SU should engage in a louder campaign. will anyone listen?:(

invincibleirish wrote:

i'd love to but the student union technocrats had me exiled for my insurgent activites(i dropped out)

wwwssshhhhhtttt, i'll sneak you in the side door, invincible prez;)

klong · 27-11-2005 3:32am

bluedolphin wrote:

i think i made this point in an earlier post when i said that campaigns are solely the responsibility of the CCO. there hasn't been a successful campaign at UL since the anti-fees one a few years back (cant remember which CCO it was). but to run a successful campaign you need to know that you'd have student backing. as far as i can see, the 'reclaim the night' demo that took place recently attracted around 100 students. that's a fair number of people, but out a student population of almost 10,000, it's a pitiful 1% of students.

The anti-fees protest wasn't a success really. UL brought, oh, 30 students or so. plasseyminstrel and I were at it...pitiful to see the biggest third-level institution in the city bring so few.

(And for the life of me I can't remember that year's CCO either!)

gaf1983 · 27-11-2005 4:53pm

klong wrote:

The anti-fees protest wasn't a success really.

Well on the other hand the government haven't brought back third level fees now, have they? Whether this was attributable to the protests or other issues is for another thread. But seeing as fees haven't been brought back, and this is what the marchers wanted, in some ways it could be looked upon as a success.

Regarding the poor turnout of UL students at that particular march, maybe there are some students who legitimately feel that the abolition of fees haven't brought the benefits promised when the decision was taken to ablolish them, and so wanted to show their support for the reinstatement of fees by staying away from an anti-fees march.

bluedolphin · 27-11-2005 6:42pm

gaf1983 wrote:

maybe there are some students who legitimately feel that the abolition of fees haven't brought the benefits promised when the decision was taken to ablolish them, and so wanted to show their support for the reinstatement of fees by staying away from an anti-fees march.

yes, that was it... they were so enthusiastic about participating that they decided to stay away.... wtf!!! :rolleyes:

p.s. klong, when i said "successful campaign," i meant any campaign in general; successful as in actually being organised...

gaf1983 · 28-11-2005 12:42am

bluedolphin wrote:

yes, that was it... they were so enthusiastic about participating that they decided to stay away.... wtf!!! :rolleyes:

I'm just saying that not all students would have agreed that bringing back fees was a bad thing, so obviously these wouldn't have any interest in attending an anti-fees protest.

bluedolphin · 28-11-2005 12:48am

gaf1983 wrote:

I'm just saying that not all students would have agreed that bringing back fees was a bad thing, so obviously these wouldn't have any interest in attending an anti-fees protest.

true, but do you think that those who were pro-fees would have attended a pro-fees protest? hmmm...methinks not........

gaf1983 · 28-11-2005 1:12am

bluedolphin wrote:

true, but do you think that those who were pro-fees would have attended a pro-fees protest? hmmm...methinks not........

I'd agree with you there, as it is unlikely that many students would like to be seen to be campaigning for something that is quite clearly not in their best interests, financially at least.

However there are a number of reasons why the return of third-level fees may be beneficial for society as a whole - I feel these are well summed up in this article from UCD's University Observer. They include the argument that the free fees scheme introduced in 1995 have only served to allow middle-class parents invest in other areas of their children's education, for example on grind schools; in the absence of a sufficient grant system, the educational inequalities that the scheme was meant to combat will remain; that the third-level sector will become more dependent on private corporations for its funding who will want the colleges to invest in research rather than improving teaching methods; and that the current government funding spent on third-level colleges could be re-allocated to the secondary and primary levels, where larger numbers of the population will benefit.

I think this thread has gone off its main topic a bit, the question of whether the ULSU is a good or a bad thing for the students of UL. However, the debate about third-level fees highlights the point made by an earlier poster that if the SU campaigns for an issue that the person is against, they may feel that it is not representing him/her. However, when arguing that it must be remembered that the same time the ULSU is a democratic institution, so while you may feel it doesn't represent your interests in some regards, there are mechanisms there for you to change it's course of action.

While I'm here, would anyone be in favour of trying to get the Nitelink to extend it's service to the city centre?

bluedolphin · 28-11-2005 1:25am

gaf1983 wrote:

SU campaigns for an issue that the person is against, they may feel that it is not representing him/her. However, when arguing that it must be remembered that the same time the ULSU is a democratic institution, so while you may feel it doesn't represent your interests in some regards, there are mechanisms there for you to change it's course of action.

democracy has it such that the people rule; if the only people who come forward are representing only one side of the argument, then only one side will be argued...

gaf1983 wrote:

would anyone be in favour of trying to get the Nitelink to extend it's service to the city centre?

certainly, i'm sure there would be...but there are two arguments against this...

firstly, the funding for the Nitelink has been quite contentious this semester - such that it comes up in the welfare officer's report to council almost fortnightly. this has been mainly because the uni has cut back its financial contribution to a fraction of what it used to be, and is planning on reducing it further, such that the SU approached student accommodation in the area to ask for funding (brookfield, etc.)

secondly, the purpose of the Nitelink is solely to provide students with a means of transport to safely get to off-campus accommodation, particularly in the winter months when it is dark quite early. it is there as a safety precaution, not as a lift, as such. there are already services provided by bus eireann, and private bus companies that go to the city centre. the Nitelink is there to get students home safely from the university campus.

gaf1983 · 07-12-2005 12:47am

Has anyone ever used the UL forum on boards.ie to canvass for a sabbatical position? Is it against the rules?

spacemunter · 02-05-2012 12:16pm

very much NAY!

All you have to do is look on facebook to see how it's being run by a pack of fools who have made UL a laughing stock amongst other universities. After the year they have had it would be better if the place was just swallowed up into the ground and forgotten about.