Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

segadreamcast

Oh really? Is that a fact? It seems to me that if you read back over the thread - you'll find that every argument for COMPULSORY Irish has been completely destroyed - with only zealots like yourself continuing to bleat something about it being "far from dead".

Irish is dead. The Irish movement points to TG4 (or Taxpayers Money Hole, as it's often called in TV circles) which manages to get, gasp, 5% of the audience at the best of times. Even though it absorbs 20%+ of the budget. Even though it shows some of the most popular English shows and dubs them into Irish. Even though it advertises everywhere. 5% of the audience. Ooo-err, far from dead indeed.

But what about RnaG? That other sword in the Irish 'far from dead' armoury. Indeed, one need not talk about RnaG, which regularly registers at less than 1% of the average daily audience. Frankly, it's an embarrassment.

So that's the end of Irish not being dead... but let's go back to the school subject being compulsory...

IT'S OUR CULTURE!!! Myth busted. Go back and, I think you'll find, that many things make our culture what it is - not just some language that is spoken by less people than Chinese. Our games, our humour, our writers, our artists - these things make us Irish - not the dead language.

PEOPLE DIED FOR IT - SO WE SHOULD CARE!!! Oh ho ho. Couldn't the same argument be used to keep the IRA together, if one were inclined to think that way?

MOST PEOPLE WANT IT!!! Two polls say that the majority are AGAINST compulsory Irish - one poll says that the majority is FOR compulsory Irish, so it's highly debatable, though the majority of polls side with the anti-compulsion side.

BUT IT IS ALIVE - I SPEAK IT, SO THEREFORE IT IS, IT IS, IT IS! One sentence debunks this one, of course: More people speak Mandarin/Polish than Irish in Ireland.

IF IRISH ISN'T COMPULSORY THEN ENGLISH SHOULDN'T BE EITHER! (normally with spelling mistakes in English, for added irony) That seems to be less an argument for making Irish compulsory, and more an argument for not making English compulsory...

Even if it isn't - 97-99% of the population speak English on a daily basis. Over 99% of businesses use it as their primary communication language. It would be the most unbelievably stupid and economically backward (but hey, most Gaelgeoirs know about being economically backwards...) to go in this direction.

Anything I've missed?

SeanW

Nope, that pretty much covers it. :v:

LordSutch

Not only should irish be optional after Junior Cert, it should be optional after Primary School as far as I am corcerned, it is such a waste of time (for most of us) hence most of us leaving School with little or no Irish to speak of. I mean to say - Irish five times a week, every bleedin week of the School term for every bleedin year that we are in School, and when you think what we could have been learning - such a waste of time!

Diorraing

NoelRock wrote:

Oh really? Is that a fact? It seems to me that if you read back over the thread - you'll find that every argument for COMPULSORY Irish has been completely destroyed - with only zealots like yourself continuing to bleat something about it being "far from dead".

Irish is dead. The Irish movement points to TG4 (or Taxpayers Money Hole, as it's often called in TV circles) which manages to get, gasp, 5% of the audience at the best of times. Even though it absorbs 20%+ of the budget. Even though it shows some of the most popular English shows and dubs them into Irish. Even though it advertises everywhere. 5% of the audience. Ooo-err, far from dead indeed.

But what about RnaG? That other sword in the Irish 'far from dead' armoury. Indeed, one need not talk about RnaG, which regularly registers at less than 1% of the average daily audience. Frankly, it's an embarrassment.

So that's the end of Irish not being dead... but let's go back to the school subject being compulsory...

IT'S OUR CULTURE!!! Myth busted. Go back and, I think you'll find, that many things make our culture what it is - not just some language that is spoken by less people than Chinese. Our games, our humour, our writers, our artists - these things make us Irish - not the dead language.

PEOPLE DIED FOR IT - SO WE SHOULD CARE!!! Oh ho ho. Couldn't the same argument be used to keep the IRA together, if one were inclined to think that way?

MOST PEOPLE WANT IT!!! Two polls say that the majority are AGAINST compulsory Irish - one poll says that the majority is FOR compulsory Irish, so it's highly debatable, though the majority of polls side with the anti-compulsion side.

BUT IT IS ALIVE - I SPEAK IT, SO THEREFORE IT IS, IT IS, IT IS! One sentence debunks this one, of course: More people speak Mandarin/Polish than Irish in Ireland.

IF IRISH ISN'T COMPULSORY THEN ENGLISH SHOULDN'T BE EITHER! (normally with spelling mistakes in English, for added irony) That seems to be less an argument for making Irish compulsory, and more an argument for not making English compulsory...

Even if it isn't - 97-99% of the population speak English on a daily basis. Over 99% of businesses use it as their primary communication language. It would be the most unbelievably stupid and economically backward (but hey, most Gaelgeoirs know about being economically backwards...) to go in this direction.

Anything I've missed?

Yeah something small you missed call THE WHOLE BLODDY POINT
Nobody ever made the point that people died for Irish but if you want to refute points that weren't even made - go ahead, it'll be the only rebuttle that will actually stand.
IDENTITY Having our own language is the only thing that makes us different to any other race. The GAA and music etc. are not day to day things and therefore do not differ us on a day yo day basis.
You think that "Our games, our humour, our writers, our artists - these things make us Irish". Apart from our games I wouldn't be able to recognise a single one of those things from any other culture. Its patently obvious at this stage in the discussion that Irish is what differs us - not "humour".
Very insubstantial point

The point that most people want compulsory Irish was not made - another example of you making up arguments that you can refute. I don't deny that most primary school children would want to scrap compulsory Irish - but then again they'd scrap compulsory Maths aswell.

You're final rebuttle is of the argument that "Its alive and people speak it". The sad truth, Noel, is that this is true, contrary to what you may wish to believe. There are more jobs available in Ireland for Irish speakers than there are for speakers of other languages, bar of course English. I admit that there aren't as many gaeilgeoirí as we'd like there to be but- hello, thats why we have compulsory Irish and were compulsory Irish to be taught efficiently everyone would be a fluent speaker.
200,000 people-a-week watch Ros na Rún btw which in my view is quite a large number. Radio na Gaeltachta is not there to serve the whole country but rather the Gaeltachtaí - hence the name.
As for calling gaeilgeoiri backwards - change the broken record. The language is on the up and this is the type of narrowminded, snobby view we could all do without.

Aon rud fágtha ar lár agam?

Diorraing

ArthurF wrote:

Not only should irish be optional after Junior Cert, it should be optional after Primary School as far as I am corcerned, it is such a waste of time (for most of us) hence most of us leaving School with little or no Irish to speak of. I mean to say - Irish five times a week, every bleedin week of the School term for every bleedin year that we are in School, and when you think what we could have been learning - such a waste of time!

I agree with you but you're argument is against the way it is taught not its compulsion

SeanW

Diorraing wrote:

Nobody ever made the point that people died for Irish

Wanna bet?

Diorraing wrote:

If for one moment you look beyond the economic side of things you will see that having our own language, spoken by Irish people is the ultimate sign of independance.

Now, people did die for Irish independence, and your earlier post (as well as being completely wrong and refuted) blurred the question of language and independence. The point was made. As were most of the others Mr. Rock summarised, in one form or another

IDENTITY Having our own language is the only thing that makes us different to any other race.

It seems the Swiss might disagree with you as would the Americans.

Oh yeah, the Swiss, they've managed to stay out of everything, WW2, the EU. Would seem to be very independent to me. But if we believed Gaeilgoir arguments one could be forgiven for believing that the Swiss have no culture or no identity whatsoever.

By the way I don't know if you recall from your leaving cert, but we have a huge literary tradition of playwrights and poets. You make the point about culture not being in everyday life but thats a universal thing - how many Germans read Goethe's writings every day while listening to Mozart? Not many I'd imagine.

There are more jobs available in Ireland for Irish speakers than there are for speakers of other languages

You obviously haven't been looking in the IT sections of the major jobsfinder websites. Or you would withdraw that. BTW most of those "Irish speaker" jobs would not exist if the taxpayer were not throwing money down the various black holes.

200,000 people-a-week watch Ros na Rún? IIRC Glenroe had 600,000 when it was scrapped. Great success. RnR is only propped up by A: Government subsidies B: English subtitles.

As for calling gaeilgeoiri backwards - change the broken record. The language is on the up and this is the type of narrowminded, snobby view we could all do without.

Temper, Temper, Diorraing.
. . Quite frankly what I find sickening is the view that one has a right to impose their identity on someone else. I do not consider it appropriate to impose my identity on others, yet you insist on hurting out young people and holding Ireland back with this backward, delusional, fairytale, nonsense.

I don't deny that most primary school children would want to scrap compulsory Irish - but then again they'd scrap compulsory Maths aswell.

No-one suggested an Irish-or-Doss choice (except GaryOR). Under my interpretation of such proposals, those not electing to do Irish would have to do something equally challenging in its place. You're dodging the whole issue. As usual.

simu

Woah, calm down people! I think you'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

donaghkebab

Ceapaim gur cóir díobh stop a chur leis an mbull**** atá ar an thread seo. Ní ach páistí iad a leithéid de SeánW agus a gcairde. Cuir bhur fuinnimh i ndaoine ata in ann an coinceap a thuiscint. Níl coileán an tíogair ceilteach seo chun éisteacht le tuairimí nach bhuil luaite in amhrán Green Day nó scannán Michael Moore.

Beir bua.

SeanW

Huh?

iregk

I think it’s a dead language myself I do not see any reason to keep it. I’m all for having in optional straight from the off in secondary not just after the junior.

Thing is less that 5% of the country speak it. How much of the annual national education budget gets spend on Irish? 50%!!! Half the budget for a language that covers less that 5% of the population. That’s ridiculous….

We have English schools for a reason, people want to go to them. If people want to do irish they will go to an irish school…

My main problem is the way it's taught. I speak fluent German and about 2 words of Irish. I always hated the fact that Irish was taught in schools as if you should or do already know the language! I learned German so much quicker than Irish for one reason. That reason being German was put across as a foreign language and constantly referenced back to English. Irish was put across to me in a why don’t you know this type of way. By the time I had hit leaving cert I had grown such a distaste and resistance to the language that I had lost all interest in it and anything to do with it. Hence why I failed Irish in my leaving cert.

Oh and in response to the point raised about more jobs floating around for Irish speakers that’s hilarious. A friend of mine who I met in collage (and actually got higher grades than I did) came from an Irish school and was as such fluent. He couldn’t get a job for a good while after we graduated. On my cv I had the words Fluent German Speaker and was one of the first person out of my year to be offered a job. The other 2 that were offered jobs before we left spoke French. I went to so many interviews it wasn’t even funny and got offered so many jobs because of my German.

Guess who got mr Irish speaker a job 6 months later? Me…

kawadri

Of course Irish should be optional, it's a useless subject. Shakespeare is a very bad example as this improves English, all the maths helps you with being more intelligent.

YOU SHOULD HAVE AN OPTION FOR EVERY LANGUAGE

kawadri

I have to say it must be optional, when you get to Leaving Certificate people have to choose, they are old enough and have the right.

It has to be optional, it's useless

USA, New Zealand, UK, Australia, Canada and many other places speak the language, but if you go to Australia will anyone speak Irish?

Even French - France, Lebanon and most places in the Middle East!

Krusader

How is it useless??

You would have a better chance to get employment with Irish working in Ireland than any other language bar Béarla

kawadri

Crosáidí wrote: »

How is it useless??

You would have a better chance to get employment with Irish working in Ireland than any other language bar Béarla

Ha! How is it better with employment

eg. Google is really going to say, wait you speak Irish so we are going to pick you

Still wrong, people should contact ministers about this

Krusader

Well they do have an irish version of their search engine
and a ****ty translator for irish aswell. So im sure they hired gaeilgóirí for this or sub-contracted the work

kawadri

But seriously, they outsourced that translator

At the end of the day, leaving cert? 17? You can decide!

You're basically an adult....

Krusader

yeah but they outsourced it to Irish speakers living in Ireland
I doubt the french one was outsourced to Irish people

kawadri

Crosáidí wrote: »

yeah but they outsourced it to Irish speakers living in Ireland
I doubt the french one was outsourced to Irish people

I understand and respect your opinion but for me Irish is really hard and pointless, I hate learning it as it will never help me in life.

Krusader

but you shouldn't hate it. Its not the languages fault it is taught badly and the curriculum is outdated. Take this from someone who failed the LC in Irish and disliked it in school but as an Adult learner, learning the language my way, I have grown to love it and see how beautiful it actually is. And really, if taught properly its really not that hard

kawadri

Crosáidí wrote: »

but you shouldn't hate it. Its not the languages fault it is taught badly and the curriculum is outdated. Take this from someone who failed the LC in Irish and disliked it in school but as an Adult learner, learning the language my way, I have grown to love it and see how beautiful it actually is. And really, if taught properly its really not that hard

That's reinforcing my point

If Irish wasn't forced down our throats with bad teaching people would like it more

Krusader

well then wouldnt a better curriculum and teaching be a better solution, then just taking the cowards way out and making it optional

kawadri

Crosáidí wrote: »

well then wouldnt a better curriculum and teaching be a better solution, then just taking the cowards way out and making it optional

But it still needs to be optional, my Irish teacher is ok

But at the age of 16 you are able to make choices for yourself and the government shouldn't stop you.

adamhh232606

I am 16 now about to go into 5th year. My view on things is that Irish has no practical use in the real world and the amount of work that I am going to have to put into it to do well in the language defies logic, for a language I will never use after school. The only reason I am going to put any effort into it is because I need it for NUI colleges.

I fully understand the cultural reason behind Irish, but History teaches a lot of Irish culture too and that is optional at Leaving Cert. And after the JC the student has already been through 9 years and knows some words and sentences to keep the cultural aspect of the language alive.

If it is an option students who want to take it can (they obviously have a passion about the language or are very good at it and dont hate it) and students who don't want to take it wont end up hating the language because they see it as a burden on their grades. And if the student does not hate it then:

• They would use it more in casual conversation, bringing the language alive
• Might even learn to speak it fully later in life like many on this thread

adamhh232606

.

kawadri

Excellent

Send this to taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie

Krusader

adamhh232606 wrote: »

English is compulsory because it is important. I remember from my Junior Cert. Geography book it says (and I quote New Geo p. 326) "Many American companies that come to Ireland are attracted here partly by the availability of an English-speaking labour force."

Irish is important for culture and it should be liked, but compulsion is not the way for Irish to be liked. Please see my post above.

How old is that Geography book, many Europeans have English as a 2nd language now, them days of getting American investment because with speak English are gone, sure Dell didn't mind jumping ship to Poland, I would say they came to Ireland because of low corporation tax 1st and foremost.

English will not always be the lingua franca and our generation has the chance to reclaim the indigenious tongue of this island, this process has already begun, you can be part of it and encourage it or stand against it the choice is yours

Agus

If we're going to talk about school English obviously letter-writing etc is important for everyday life, but how do those arguments apply to Shakespearian literature? Or Maths for that matter - basic arithmetic may be important but not so sure about Leaving Cert maths: if you don't go on to a career in the area how often will you use your calculus etc?

Krusader

I'd take a guess at that and say never!

deise go deo

I believe the best way forward is to keep a compulsory Irish subject that focuses on basic conversation and the functional side of things, and have an optional Irish subject similar to higher level English based on potery and literature etc. I also feel that teaching a modual of other subjects trough basic Irish would also be very benefical.

I feel this because i Know that if I had been given a choice at the time i would have droped Irish so fast it would have made your head spin, mainly for practical reasons and because i really dident get on with one of the Irish teachers. When I was finished the leavin I got back into learnin Irish and I Know that had I not done Irish up to the Leavin it would really have held me back in learning it now which is something i would really regret.

As for people who go through the education system and come out unable to string a sentance together these people dont ''Learn'' Irish, Irish is just tought in their presance. In my Irish class there was a lad who was exempt from Irish at the back of the class. He was supposed to be studying other stuff while irish was goin on. By the end even he had picked up the basics just from listening in.:D

adamhh232606

deise go deo wrote: »

I believe the best way forward is to keep a compulsory Irish subject that focuses on basic conversation and the functional side of things, and have an optional Irish subject similar to higher level English based on potery and literature etc.

I like that idea