Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

Diorraing

SeanW wrote:

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What's more, there is much of Irish culture in the English subject, our poets, Keats, Kavangah, playwrights like J. M. Synge who wrote in English, and of course the argument COULD be made that these are surplus to modern requirements. But I'm not making this argument, you are. Now who's anti-Irish? .

I never said we shouldn't learn English. All I am saying is that the logic you use against Irish can be used against compulsory English. If you do not accept that than you are guilty of double standards.
You keep talkin about Irish as being of no use. The whole point of compulsory Irish is to make it useful - to have more speakers. The reason we don't use Irish at the moment is because it is being taught dreadfully and everyone accepts that

SeanW wrote:

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They do, and they are key to our national identity in just the same way as America wouldn't be America without Apple pie, the Stars and Stripes, American Football, Baseball, Country Music and monster SUVs.

America has no culture worth talking of

SeanW

I never said we shouldn't learn English.

You seemed quite adamant here ...

I don't want to see English as part of my life, identity but you sir are trying to "ramm it down my throat". I also have no interest or need for maths and again you're ramming it into my brain.

Perhaps I missed your point? But that still doesn't change the fact that Irish and English/Maths are two different kettles of fish. To make maths optional would be to fly in the face of all national and international experience, my understanding is that all education systems worldwide (or most of them anyway) mandate mathematics from pre-school to graduation.

So you would need a very different, and much stronger argument for the abolition of maths class.

Similar for English, where my understanding is that many education systems mandate it, even in non-English speaking countries. So looking at national and international experience, there are strong defenses of both English and maths, thus mandating different arguments for their elective-isation. The same logic is not applicable.

America has no culture worth talking of

Right ... it's own menu of sports, music, and respectable literary tradition, storywriters and poets such as Edgar Allen Poe, Helen Stelanor Rice, Mark Twain ... sure, no culture ... if you're blind and living in la'la land.

You could say I was one of McWilliams Gaelscoil elite,

That was my next guess. Followed by Sinn Fein supporter.

The only people who seem to like most of what you claim to be the Irishness that will flourish with the end of Irish

No, parts of our culture such as the GAA are already flourishing. Maybe you haven't noticed that the GAA has been going from strength to strength these last 20 years, they just rebuilt Croke Park 10 years ago with little Government support, since then the FAI has been dithering around with the Bertie Bowl, Eircom Park, Genesis report, and a revolving door of managers, executives and board members.
That's because the GAA has strong leadership and population that likes what they do.

I don't even like most of our tradisional music etc...

Neither do I, but that's becuase musical tastes change over time, the Germans probably don't listen to as much polka/marching band/classical music as they used to 100 years ago. Times change and so do tastes and lifestyles, that doesn't mean we lose our identity/culture. Right now I'm listening to U2, and someone in Germany is listening to Rammstein. That's life.

Still, if you're like me you probably have a few rebel songs in your music collection as well as plently of modern music sung/produced by Irish artists.

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

That was my next guess. Followed by Sinn Fein supporter.

That's because the GAA has strong leadership and population that likes what they do.

That's right All of us from the school are exactly the same..... I never even seen a jumper with shamrocks on it.
Sinn Féin are a bunch of muppets, which is surprising, as when I don't distrust them with our economy, or lives I agree with them.
I'm guessing you're fine gael? while we are at the whole name calling thing the whole fascist thing is coming through....

As a meber of the GAA and one of the few to play three of the GAA sports, I wonder why you say the GAA is flourishing, they where just bullied into allowing a bunch of idiots(managment) and posh not so idiotic idiots to use their stadium. I didn't like that because other nonGAA sports where getting all the GAA's attention, while the handball alley where I play is being bullied by Pairc an Croicaigh Teo. They only just got the licence back.

It's happening again I've been distracted from ag labhairt an gaeilge mar ní stopann tú an gearann

SeanW

SeanW wrote:

This is getting off-topic and the moderators prob. going to step in, but I'll answer anyway.

Yes, it is. There's a GAA board in the sports section if ye want to take it there. Or else discuss it in this forum in Irish!

/edit

Sorry, SeanW. I pressed edit instead of quote by accident and unfortunately, I can't reverse it so your post has disappeared. But continue the discussion on Irish (but not on GAA) for as long as ye want.

-simu

SeanW

No worries simu. Stuff happens. I'll end this by saying I disagree with your view of the GAA, and leave it there.

That's right All of us from the school are exactly the same

No, but all of you with this ridiculous siege mentality are exactly the same. No amount of madness, waste, or imposition, it seems, is too much to keep this language in a Terry Schaivo style state for what could be all eternity. Unlike a brain-dead body however, the language won't die completely when you take out one feeding tube.

I'm guessing you're fine gael?

Non affiliated ... Still, Enda Kenny's started talking sense recently.

while we are at the whole name calling thing the whole fascist thing is coming through....

Veiled, themed insults have been going both ways, mostly from the gaeilgoir side - Anti-Irish, slavedriver, etc. Indeed on the letters thread you clearly stated that people who didn't make an effort to use the Irish language shouldn't be considered Irish, which is a fair percentage of the population ... We'd all do well to stay from that sort of thing.

I just long for the day when we will have an education system that is student focused and modern, and I belive Enda Kenny got the ball rolling on doing just that by calling for the removal of compulsive Irish post junior cert. "What about Maths/English?" is not an argument, both are key.

School shouldn't be about keeping some ultra-nationalist fanatics happy or making some ridiculous cultural statement, or have hangovers from the past (like Religion), but should be student focused and develop the student's mind as well as helping them find their interests, individual identities and possible careers.

It can be done as we have good leadership in the schools and most teachers are good (my experience) all that's needed is a review to make better evaluation structures and a wider choice of electives. But the plain harsh truth is that for this to happen the Bishops and Gaeilgoirs need to take a back seat.
For the good of the country.

Diorraing

If SeanW is finished with the insults I'd like to resume the argument on a more sophisticated level. It seems as though the anti-Irish lobby are beating around the bush on the major issues. Your logic for having compulsory Maths is: Every other country has it - firstly that is not true (look at England), secondly, even if it was true - so what? You must show that this is having a positive effect. Quite frankly I dunnot believe that the vast majority of people ever use Leaving Cert maths ever. I am for math being compulsory but using your logic I would be against it. You have all the English you need after Junior Cert level. Much as I would love to find the answers to all life's problems in Shakespeare - I don't.
You have completely negelected the value of Irish to our culture and identity. If for one moment you look beyond the economic side of things you will see that having our own language, spoken by Irish people is the ultimate sign of independance.
Why don't you just come clean and say that you're anti-Irish language? Then we can debate the reason why you are so. Hiding behind other arguments just ignores the major issue that needs to be discussed.

CerebralCortex

Diorraing wrote:

....having our own language, spoken by Irish people is the ultimate sign of independance....

Is it really in fairness?

luckat

I'd love to hear Irish spoken as an equal language in Ireland.

SeanW

Re: the insults they've been going both ways, I agree let's drop them.

Your logic for having compulsory Maths is: Every other country has it - firstly that is not true (look at England), secondly

I was wrong on this point, to be expected as I did not know for sure. That's why I used the phrase "It is my understanding ..." My point was that with many schools worldwide mandating maths, those seeking it's removal here would need different and stronger arguments. Please explain the "Anti-Irish lobby" comment as this confused me.

You have all the English you need after Junior Cert level.

You forget that by Junior Cert, the student will already have had NINE years Irish language education, for most of whom it will be all for nothing. So please tell us more about useless education, as it all goes back to the failed policy of compulsive Irish - and further back than Junior Cert. Way further.

Much as I would love to find the answers to all life's problems in Shakespeare - I don't.

Well, my 4th and 5th year English was all poetry of Keats and Kavanagh, as well as Playboy of the Western World (J.M. Synge), this I found quite enlightening and enjoyable. I for one have yet to be convinced that the above are dispensable.

You have completely negelected the value of Irish to our culture and identity.

I showed how you can have a whole identity AND culture, without a language, the U.S.A. is a major example of this, with their own sports (Baseball, American Football), patriotism, music (country etc) and a respectable literary tradition. Much like we do with GAA, Irish dancing (albeit small), Trad and showband music, poets and playwrights, as well as our modern musical talent. Your (and Cliste's) respone? Anti-Americanism.
I also mentioned Switzerland, AFAIK another good example though obviously I know less about it.

If for one moment you look beyond the economic side of things

>_< have you been reading my posts? I made it clear that while I believe the main function of education is to prepare the student for the harsh realities of life - including working life - it should ALSO focus on the student, forcing decisiveness, and expanding their minds, including subjects that may be useless at work, like music, philosophy, literature, Irish - AS ELECTIVES. I DO "look beyond the economic side of things," just even doing so I find no justification for compulsive Irish.

Why don't you just come clean and say that you're anti-Irish language?

This may come as a shock. I'm not Anti-Gaeilge because I don't care about it either way. I am, however, pro live-and-let-live and pro-realism.

I'm realistic to know that if a student absolutely hates learning Irish (read this), enough not to sit the exam paper by the thousands, that continuance of the failed policy doesn't benefit anyone. Least of all the stressed out students who spent 1500 valuable student-teacher hours learning something so pointless they don't even try to get 5 LC points out of it.
Also while I couldn't give a toss what happens to Gaeilge, others love it. That's why I believe training in it should be available both in school (good luck to Cliste in your studies) and after - to those who want it. That's why I suggested replacing compulsory Irish with an overhauled elective course AND free adult Irish education.
I had hoped you would understand that for many Irish people, the Irish language just doesn't have any relevance. Me included.

It's not enough to patch things up by saying "lets overhaul the Irish curriculum - sometime" the whole system is a throwback to 1950. Compulsive Irish, the continuance of religious education, and the LC "points race" are tell tale signs of an education system that ceased to be optimal a long time ago.

Diorraing

SeanW wrote:

You forget that by Junior Cert, the student will already have had NINE years Irish language education, for most of whom it will be all for nothing. So please tell us more about useless education, as it all goes back to the failed policy of compulsive Irish - and further back than Junior Cert. Way further.

Thats why I am calling for a complete revamping of the course. If more emphasis is put on spoken Irish there is no reason why most young people wouldn't be able to speak Irish by the time they graduate. After that they are going to have far more opportunities to use Irish than they will any other foreign language. Lets face it, its a lot easier to use Irish than French or German: Irish T.V, Irish Radio, Irish books, Irish Newspapers, Irish Magazines, Plenty of jobs requiring Irish,
If I wanted to use French: I don't have French TV, I don't have French Radio, I can't buy French books in any bookshop near me, I can't buy French newspapers in any shop within 4 miles. The only time I'll ever use my L.C French is if I go on holidays to France - which would only be for two weeks and in which I probably wouldn't speak French or would have forgotten it through lack of practice.
Ergo, Irish is a far more useful language for the ordinary Irish person than other Eurpoean languages and an effort to promote it should be done.

R0ot

No its the language of our country, i sucked at it but its a cool language and i wish i had been taught it better from baby infants class upwards

SeanW

Thats why I am calling for a complete revamping of the course.

You're calling for a feeble patching-up of the 1950s system, all while avoiding reality.

Irish T.V

TG4? Only survives by sucking up government funds and RTE programming like a sponge while still being a minority interest. They admit this openly in their last annual report.

Most of those jobs you speak of are government jobs (such as the move to make Irish an EU language, so we can spend more millions of euro translating umpteen pages of stuff for - what - 2 people to read them?).

If I wanted to use French:

You could get any of the thosands of call centre jobs, sales jobs, support positions, foreign recruitments, or senior positions at an Irish subsidiary of a foreign firm, many of which mandate a particular foreign langage.
And all that is before we think of all the new-wealthy Irish who take more foreign holidays, buy homes in Paris, or the Mediterranean Coast, who move or go travelling longer term to Europe to see the world. Again that needs a foreign language.
In both work and leisure, our horizons have never been wider.

Key point is that I have yet to be convinced of 2 things:

1. That the electivisation (done properly) of the language could contribute to it's downfall
2. that anything of value would be lost even in the unlikely event that it did.

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

You're calling for a feeble patching-up of the 1950s system, all while avoiding reality.

Most of those jobs you speak of are government jobs (such as the move to make Irish an EU language, so we can spend more millions of euro translating umpteen pages of stuff for - what - 2 people to read them?).

You could get any of the thosands of call centre jobs, sales jobs, support positions, foreign recruitments, or senior positions at an Irish subsidiary of a foreign firm, many of which mandate a particular foreign langage.
And all that is before we think of all the new-wealthy Irish who take more foreign holidays, buy homes in Paris, or the Mediterranean Coast, who move or go travelling longer term to Europe to see the world. Again that needs a foreign language.
In both work and leisure, our horizons have never been wider.

Key point is that I have yet to be convinced of 2 things:

1. That the electivisation (done properly) of the language could contribute to it's downfall
2. that anything of value would be lost even in the unlikely event that it did.

What is reality? that we should stop a subject because people don't like it. Few like math.... I being a nerd like both, but many others wouldn't take math if they could, It has no practical application except to test your logic Gaeilge is a language, a method of communication.

As an Gaeilge is the first national language the documents have to be in Irish, As far as I know, in law the Gaeilge version is the main one, and mistakes on that are the law. Do you wish for a referendum to change Irelands first language away from Irish?

As far as my knowlage extends When people go abroad they tend to use Irish more.... This isn't just me, generally told to me by people like you used arguing against Irish...... So although needing a foreign language their own teanga nádurtha becomes more important to them.

I don't think that any of us will be convinced against their original thoughts,
I think An Gaeilge should be compulsary, as when you misguided have your eyes opened to the truth about Irish we don't want you to feel left out when everyone is speaking Irish.

ishmael whale

Cliste wrote:

What is reality? that we should stop a subject because people don't like it. Few like math.... I being a nerd like both, but many others wouldn't take math if they could, It has no practical application except to test your logic Gaeilge is a language, a method of communication.

Just to be clear, Irish is the only compulsory Leaving Cert subject. Maths and English are not. This is not just a theoretical thing - for example you can gain entry to TCD without Maths if you have Latin, or attend GMIT if you have Irish and Maths but didn't do Irish. The whole 'why should Irish be made optional if Maths and English aren't' argument is based on a misunderstanding of the present reality - English and Maths are optional. I posted up a relevant link in my post above.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50455596&postcount=86

GaryOR

ishmael whale wrote:

Just to be clear, Irish is the only compulsory Leaving Cert subject. Maths and English are not. This is not just a theoretical thing - for example you can gain entry to TCD without Maths if you have Latin, or attend GMIT if you have Irish and Maths but didn't do Irish. The whole 'why should Irish be made optional if Maths and English aren't' argument is based on a misunderstanding of the present reality - English and Maths are optional. I posted up a relevant link in my post above.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50455596&postcount=86

I don't remember ever having the choice not to do English or Maths...

SeanW

Cliste wrote:

What is reality?

That the language is almost totally unused outside government usage. It is almost totally irrelevant in modern society and only considered part of the personal identity of a minority.

As an Gaeilge is the first national language the documents have to be in Irish, As far as I know, in law the Gaeilge version is the main one, and mistakes on that are the law.

Considering that something like only 1/10 solicitors can practice law in Irish, this seems like a dangerous situation.

Do you wish for a referendum to change Irelands first language away from Irish?

No-one would vote in it except the fanatics becuase few others care either way.

As far as my knowlage extends When people go abroad they tend to use Irish more.... This isn't just me, generally told to me by people like you used arguing against Irish

Huh?

I don't think that any of us will be convinced against their original thoughts

You're probably right.

I think An Gaeilge should be compulsary, as when you misguided have your eyes opened to the truth about Irish we don't want you to feel left out when everyone is speaking Irish.

Riiiiiight. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting though ...

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

I don't remember ever having the choice not to do English or Maths...

Nevertheless, they are optional Leaving Cert subjects - although let me make it absolutely clear I was also under the mistaken impression they were also compulsory until I recently checked the Department of Education website.
The simple fact is that Irish currently has a unique compulsory status - so if people are truly of the opinion that Irish can be made optional if the same status is applied to Maths and English they are actually saying that the ending of compulsory Irish is long overdue.

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

That the language is almost totally unused outside government usage. It is almost totally irrelevant in modern society and only considered part of the personal identity of a minority.

Considering that something like only 1/10 solicitors can practice law in Irish, this seems like a dangerous situation.

No-one would vote in it except the fanatics becuase few others care either way.

Riiiiiight. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting though ...

Firstly that is your angle on reality.
Secondly is my communication skills that bad I said IT IS THE FIRST NATIONAL LANGUAGE look in your bunracht na hÉireann(that’s our constitution, or don’t you know what we’re talking about), It would be a referendum about the language not in the language.
Thirdly It’s a fact not a dangerous situation. If bunracht na héireann is wrong in english, but right in Irish the Irish version is taken without a referendum, if the Irish version is wrong, and the english version right we have to wait for a referendum while murderers walk free…. That’s a Fact
Lastly that was a joke: Funny look on what we are arguing, slightly the truth, but Ironic….. Maybe I’m not actually funny…..

GaryOR

ishmael whale wrote:

Nevertheless, they are optional Leaving Cert subjects - although let me make it absolutely clear I was also under the mistaken impression they were also compulsory until I recently checked the Department of Education website.
The simple fact is that Irish currently has a unique compulsory status - so if people are truly of the opinion that Irish can be made optional if the same status is applied to Maths and English they are actually saying that the ending of compulsory Irish is long overdue.

From what I can remember people who genuinely didn't want to do Irish had the choice, in my school anyway. And not just those who's parents came back from the states or the UK, born and bred Irish people opted out aswell.... so is the optional status that necessary???

SeanW

My understanding of LC requirements had been that you must acheive a passing mark in Ordinary level in Mathematics AND either Enligsh or Irish.

And yes, the rules on returning emmigrants etc, who were out of the education system for a while, or new to it, are entitled to a derogation from Irish, thank God I got this.

My classmates weren't so lucky however

The rule had been changed in the past 10 years from a previous status-quo where those who came new/returned to the system had to play catch-up.

It mustn't have worked very well.

so is the optional status that necessary???

Yes it is.

Secondly is my communication skills that bad I said IT IS THE FIRST NATIONAL LANGUAGE look in your bunracht na hÉireann

Again government is the main user of the Irish language.

Thirdly It’s a fact not a dangerous situation.

It IS a dangerous situation because 90-95% of solicitors are technically incapable of dealing in Ireland's law if this is true. I just hope there AREN'T any mistakes in translations or something somewhere is going to be a confused mess.

GaryOR

so is the optional status that necessary???
Yes it is.

Why, you don't even have experience at the way its taught ,you probably don't even know your surname in Irish and feel no connection...

And don't tell me that your class mates used to tell you how lucky you were, (You, seeing their suffering became a hero for the anti-Irish movement) thats just normal when someone has less subjects to have to worry about.

Is your dislike for Irish based on the "Kevin Myres" syndrome i.e. I can't understand so that makes me feel stupid, which leads to embarrassment, which leads to anger!! hate!!! etc..

This rule for opting out of Irish isn't just limited to returning Irish, born and bred Irish can and do it also. and a lot of returning Irish don't opt out as I know a family that have returned from the states and they have huge interest and respect for the language of their country and anscestors.

Also, Irish isn't just spoken in Goverment (I should be spoken more there), there are plenty of restuarants, night clubs, clubs, football/ Hurling teams, daily newspapers, weekly newspapers, Magazines, 2 exclusively Irish radio stations, an irish T.V. station that will soon have independance from RTE, programming on RTE and a masssive Internet showing for Irish.

Also in the last census 1.5Million people claimed to have Irish ,it'll be interesting to see how many in thenext one coming soon......

SeanW

Why, you don't even have experience at the way its taught

Yes, I do, I was in the infants and national school throughout (up until end of 6th class). I left school with a cupla focail and forgot it all inside of 6 months. It was all poetry anyway. I know exactly how badly its taught.

(You, seeing their suffering became a hero for the anti-Irish movement)

This statement is total claptrap. WTF?

you probably don't even know your surname in Irish, and feel no connection

You're right, I don't.
BUT THIS IS OFF TOPIC.
The fact that I'm not a fan of the Irish language and it has no relevance in my life whatsoever has nothing to do with this. The question is, does it have relevance to the rest of the population and to each individual. If the answer is yes, you have nothing to worry about. If not, then you must answer some fundamental questions about *why* you are trying to impose an identity on someone they do not hold.

I regret not doing German in secondary school and college when I had the chance, but I'm not looking to make it compulsory anywhere simply becuase I like it or wish I knew it better, which seems to be the logic being applied here. I am of the view that such decisions are a matter for the individual and not some rabid gaeilgoir to say "this is part of your identity no matter how much you hate it."

"Kevin Myers syndrome"

Huh? Isn't he a columnist for the Irish Times or something? I barely know who Kevin Myers is let alone identify with his "brigade" or "syndrome" or whatever, but - hey we're all stereotyping here so what the hell.

This rule for opting out of Irish isn't just limited to returning Irish

My understanding is that it is. You must have been out of the Irish education system for some time before being excused from Irish classes and examination.

I suppose I should be grateful that things have changed since 1966, and I don't have an army of Gaeilic fanatics on my doorstep waving English flags and singing God Save The Queen like happened to the Language Freedom Movement.

GaryOR

I regret not doing German in secondary school and college when I had the chance, but I'm not looking to make it compulsory anywhere simply becuase I like it or wish I knew it better, which seems to be the logic being applied here.

No its not the logic, the logic behind Irish is that its the Language of the Irish...

(You, seeing their suffering became a hero for the anti-Irish movement)
This statement is total claptrap. WTF?

Yes it is, Just messing.

You're right, I don't.
BUT THIS IS OFF TOPIC.

Oh forgive me, but its not like you don't like a bit off topic now and again.

My understanding is that it is. You must have been out of the Irish education system for some time before being excused from Irish classes and examination.

Not true, I've seen it done it my own school. Can't find any links to prove it so you'll have to just take my word on it.

I suppose I should be grateful that things have changed since 1966, and I don't have an army of Gaeilic fanatics on my doorstep waving English flags and singing God Save The Queen like happened to the Language Freedom Movement.

I would't have any time for fanatics on either side...

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

From what I can remember people who genuinely didn't want to do Irish had the choice, in my school anyway. And not just those who's parents came back from the states or the UK, born and bred Irish people opted out aswell.... so is the optional status that necessary???

Firstly, as I understand it the exemption applies only to people who attended school outside the state up to some cutoff age. So if your school allowed others to avail of the exemption, they were breaking the rule. You might be aware that recently there were reports of schools abusing the exemption, and announcements that the Department was going to crack down on that abuse.

Secondly, can I suggest that you attitude of 'keep the rule but don't enforce it' is exactly the kind of empty Irish solution that we need to move away from. Can we not have the courage of our convictions? If you think everyone should be obliged to study Irish regardless of their own preferences then simply support that view with an argument. If you are happy with the idea that people should be able to choose not to take Irish, as you seem to be, then why can't you simply agree the present rule is inappropriate?

Can I also suggest that you reflect a little on your previous contribution before posting. This is not personal to you, but I notice some posters paint themselves into corners and then feel they have to defend a position which, on mature reflection, they probabaly would agree they should never have taken to begin with.

14jake88

i think it should be, sure the same can be said of maths and most subjects what will be next optional maths.It is an essential part of our heritage and if we allow it to die maybe our children will suffer from it.I do think it is on the rise though with more young people interested know then ever.i am pretty bad at the ole gaeilge i get Bs in ordinary but i enjoy the language and i think i might not have chosen it if given the choice.At the start of secondary school even up to 4th,5th year you are still a little young to see the importance.Any way anybody with a serious difficulty can do foundation or get exsempted from doing it.

SeanW

No offense, but your post by nature of its grammer and spelling make the best case imaginable for compulsory English. Technically maths is optional, as IW pointed out you can skip maths, do Latin instead and still get into some major universities.Irish is the only priviledged subject in the curriculum.

part of our heritage

Steam engines are part of our heritage too - but that doesn't stop Irish Rail from running DARTs and diesel trains does it?
The prominance of the Cathoic Church is a part of our heritage - but we're not all religious fanatics who give all our money (and little boys) to the Christian Brothers?
The Famine is part of our history as is the struggle for independence - but that doesn't mean we all have to eat potatoes and kill Brits.

The only people forcing us to live in the past - against one's will - are gaeilgoirs.

i enjoy the language and i think i might not have chosen it if given the choice.

Ah, yours is one of those "becuase of my personal experience - no one should have the right to choose differently" arguments. Makes about as much sense as the last one.

I regret not doing a foreign language when I had the chance (such as German) and it's held me back since, but I don't seek to make German compulsory ANYWHERE ("Lord knows someone might repeat my mistake?") based on these experiences.

even up to 4th,5th year you are still a little young to see the importance.

Bull. At 4th year, a person has to be thinking of their future or the future will come and bite them in the rear end. In my school, all my friends were thinking about (or knew) what to do with their lives and coming into maturity. Not least is the fact that the uber-important leaving cert was just around the corner.

if we allow it to die maybe our children will suffer

I would argue that Ireland's recent success has come in spite of the efforts of many generations of Gaeilgoirs et. al. to keep Ireland in a fairlytale time warp. No-one will suffer if the Irish language is elective-ised, except Gaeilc language fanatics who seemingly will stop at nothing to impose the language on anyone they can. I do not have a right to impose an identity on someone who would not otherwise hold it. So what gives it to you?

Like the Famine, the Christian Brothers and Emigration, some things belong in the past. Compulsory Irish is one of them.

Grudaire

Níl ár chara Séan chun éisteacht linn. Mar sin níl aon gá nó fá le seo.
Beidh sé níos fearr fág é leis féin ar faigh tamaill.

Diorraing

SeanW wrote:

No offense, but your post by nature of its grammer and spelling make the best case imaginable for compulsory English .

Good to see Sean, you've really risen to a high level of debating. Seriously though, who are you to judge other peoples' grammar when you can't even spell the word

nitrogen

dudara: "In modern Ireland, we're even more exposed to other influences than the Irish of a hundred years ago, which is even more reason to strengthen our national identity."

This sort of mentality leads to the same actions as Americans hanging flags outside their house and singing the national anthem every morning. We don't need a G.W Bush approach! Ireland is and will become more multicultural.

"Between 7-9pm, all you can see on the television are mainly English soaps, English talent (or talentless) shows."

Compared to the genius of Killinoskully, Fair City?

Enough of the anti-English attitude.
"While others say don't hate nothing at all. Except hatred." - Dylan.
It doesn't help one's mind with idiotic attitudes like what you've stated.

PS. It's mad having a "dead" language compulsory. Schools should start teaching Mandarin and Spanish!

Diorraing

nitrogen wrote:

PS. It's mad having a "dead" language compulsory. Schools should start teaching Mandarin and Spanish!

Thats where you lose the argument son. Read back over the thread and you'll soon find that Irish is far from dead.