Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

muesli_offire

Just heard Enda Kenny's remark that Irish should be an optional Leaving cert subject. Seems to make a lot of sense, as continental languages are more important. Any opinions? Also, why do leaving cert subjects like French, which is spoken by many millions of people all over the world, lack a literary bias while Irish does not?

PowerHouseDan

I think it should be optional. But thats just my view.

muesli_offire

Mise freisin. I mean I enjoyed Irish in school and all, but it is a bit of a drag for students in schools where subject choices are limited and who hence find it difficult to fit both a continental language and a preferred science or practical subject into their timetable.

Mogwa

Ok im in 6th year and I do honours Irish.Personally I think Irish should be a choice when you come into secondary school and not compulsory in Primary.I also study German and find I know alot more German than Irish if i was back in first year I would pick Irish because it would be something new and make me feel more Irish.Just an idea!

Diorraing

muesli_offire wrote:

Just heard Enda Kenny's remark that Irish should be an optional Leaving cert subject. Seems to make a lot of sense, as continental languages are more important

Not necessarily. I did Irish, French, German and Latin (all higher level) for my Leaving Cert. Haven't used French or German since, used the odd bit of Latin and use Irish loads of the time. Where I live, you can't get French or German T.V or radio but you can get Irish language T.V and Radio. I never ever see French or German newspapers but Foinse is for sale in ever single shop I walk into (and Lá is pretty common aswell). Even look at the boards language forum. Besides English Irish has the most threads and views - by miles!
The reason why some people detest Irish is because they haven't been taught it properly at primary school level. If they were fluent coming into secondary school they would find the poems etc. far easier.

Gael

I agree totally that the teaching methods are crap and many are leaving school with little or no fluency, but making it a choice subject will not fix that.
The teaching system should be overhauled. Just making Irish optional is a cop-out. It won't really address the issue. All it'll mean is that a smaller minority of students will be taught by the same incompetent teachers with crap teaching methods.

Ron DMC

I'm not even going to tell you all how pissed off I am.
Let's just say that I have lost all respect I once had for Enda Kenny and his Fine Gael lackeys.:mad: :mad: :mad:
Damn quitters couldn't come up with a way to rectify the problems with Irish teaching so they just did away with it.

Red Alert

Is é mo thuairim go bhfuil athrú iomlán ag teastáil uainn. Currently the cúrsa gaeilge in secondary school consists of a language and a literary element, and a small section entitled stair na gaeilge.

This I presume comes from the definition of Irish as our primary language, and assumes that it's the vernacular like english. I really enjoyed the language element but I found the literary element quite hard to manage despite scoring an A1 in the leaving higher level. Less of an emphasis on complicated Irish poetry would be a big step, or possibly just remove poetry from the ordinary level course.

Making the subject optional would be a good step in my opinion for the Irish language's continued survival. The course should be based around dealing with everyday situations as gaeilge. Cad iad na focail atá ag baint leis an idirlín mar shampla? A friend from work who was brought up by her irish-speaking grandmother and whose b/f was also a gaeilgeoir, and wore a small badge to the effect that she could do business in irish if required, said that from her point of view the irish course was outdated. although she wanted to ring the tax office as gaeilge, the irish course in school didn't give her the tools to do it.

an optional course with real everyday use of the language is the only way an gaeilge is going to get a real shot as a used language. plenty of oral and aural should be included to really get people comfortable with it - it's much easier to write what sounds familiar!

Dyr

Diorraing wrote:

The reason why some people detest Irish is because they haven't been taught it properly at primary school level. If they were fluent coming into secondary school they would find the poems etc. far easier.

Its been a while since my school days but thats spot on in my opinion, I think the problem starts in primary school. For example I went to a primary gael scoil and irish was a breeze simply because it was second nature for us. There wasnt a child who left that school not fluent in irish. Onto a secondary gaeil scoil and the (then) Inter cert level irish was a nightmare, dull, obscure, emphasis on gramadach etc and taught by bad tempered fanatics. I left that place after three years and went to an english speaking secondary school. The level of spoken irish there by otherwise intelligent, capable students was abysmal. How the hell can people be expected to pass an exam when they dont even speak the language? So yeah, the secondary irish system doesnt work but mainly because the primary curriculum sets most students up for a fall.

Hopefully things have changed for the better since my time but if the govt is serious about promoting irish as a spoken language then i think the answer is more gaeil scoil at primary level.

Red Alert

just wondering did you leave the gaelscoil because of the irish?

dubhthach

it doesn't say much for way its thought when people can leave school speaking french after 5years but their irish is cack after 13years.

Mary Hanafin is quoted in the Irish Times today saying bout changing exams so that the oral makes up 50%. In my opinion breakdown should be switched to something like this:
50% -> Oral
20% -> Aural
30% -> Written

My 2cents

Suaimhneach

I've been saying it for years. Split irish into two levels. One being taught at the level French and German are taught, conversational. And then another one at a "higher" level, some prose and stories. Some Irish language history, the language revival, all interesting. Grammer should only be taught in basic form. This results in two forms of people graduating secondary. A gratduated youth with conversational, or better, irish.

Irish is mainly hated because of the way it is taught. It's no harder than learning any other langauge and it is important to keep it alive starting from a young age. It's a fault with the educational system that needs to be fixed.

There is also the issue of teachers being inept at teaching it because of their own loathing of the language. IF the teacher dislikes it, then the students aren't likely to enjoy it. Gael Linn have sent out workbooks, for teachers, with one page in Irish, and the facing page entirely in English in order to try change this. However, as a teacher, if you associate irish with learning from a bad system and struggling to pass to get to college, it's hard to change that persona with just a book.

Now to just get a TD to listen to me, to bring it to the Dáil and to get it all changed. Or something.

Diorraing

Jesjes wrote:

I've been saying it for years. Split irish into two levels. One being taught at the level French and German are taught, conversational. And then another one at a "higher" level, some prose and stories. Some Irish language history, the language revival, all interesting. Grammer should only be taught in basic form. This results in two forms of people graduating secondary. A gratduated youth with conversational, or better, irish.

Great idea, not only will it make the learning of the language easier for people not fluent in Irish, it will make the subject somewhat more challenging for those with fluent Irish. I'm a fluent speaker and thought the Leaving Cert paper was easy to the level of insulting (Ré Ó Laighléis? - hardly Shakespeare na Gaeilge). I would much prefer to have studied Briain Merriman or Seathrún Keating. On the other hand, some of my friends who weren't as priviliged as me to be fluent found the course impossible. Doing poems with them when they don't know how to speak it is absurd. Hats off to you for that suggestion, Jesjes

Red Alert

People might then actually use it. I got an awful shock when i bumped into a fluent irish speaker at a dance class who actually enjoyed using her irish.

Dyr

Red Alert wrote:

just wondering did you leave the gaelscoil because of the irish?

Nope, not at all. I was fluent by the time i left primary, and our primary school really encouraged us to use irish socially etc. I just hated that secondary school...christian brothers :eek:

EvilPixieOne

I think the teaching should definatly be improved upon. It's crazy when irish is my worst subject that I have to keep it on for the leaving when I have so many more other subjects that I would rather be doing and that I could do better in. If I can have nearly fluent german after 3 years and yet cannot put one sentence of irish together there is something seriously wrong

Diorraing

EvilPixieOne wrote:

I think the teaching should definatly be improved upon. It's crazy when irish is my worst subject that I have to keep it on for the leaving when I have so many more other subjects that I would rather be doing and that I could do better in. If I can have nearly fluent german after 3 years and yet cannot put one sentence of irish together there is something seriously wrong

Thats fine, maybe you should have the choice. As long as I, who am not good at Maths should have the choice to drop that aswell. Perhaps a two out of the three system would work better

Red Alert

there's two ways of looking at it. if you go compulsory you have to split the courses to make any sensible outcome: have conversational irish as the compulsory and the literary stuff as the optional. or else you put the entire thing optional.

either way is a win-win. the ordinary person who couldn't give a toss isn't forced to learn reams of stuff they don't want to and they also leave with a decent standard of conversational irish and plus they probably won't resent doing it. and the rest of us can feel free to study irish as a serious subject without the 'attitude' that some people who don't want to be in the class have.

Ron DMC

Red Alert wrote:

I got an awful shock when i bumped into a fluent irish speaker at a dance class who actually enjoyed using her irish.

There's more of us than you think. I usually spend up to a third of my day conversing through Irish.

Suaimhneach

EvilPixieOne wrote:

I think the teaching should definatly be improved upon. It's crazy when irish is my worst subject that I have to keep it on for the leaving when I have so many more other subjects that I would rather be doing and that I could do better in. If I can have nearly fluent german after 3 years and yet cannot put one sentence of irish together there is something seriously wrong

I absolutely agree with you! I had the ability to drop chemistry, thank god, otherwise I would have had a fail on my leaving cert.

I'm just pointing out, Enda Kennys suggestion treats the problem/symtom and not the cause.

If the education system had of been changed ten years ago, [longer, most likely, but for the purpose of the arguement] then your standard of Irish would be much higher and you would be learning at an ability to suit you.

However, it costs much much more to change the education system, then to just make a subject optional. And our government suck at changing anything. Just look how badly people did when they changed home eac and sciences for the first time in about 15 years. Standards were MUCH lower.

I think Irish for the leaving cert, pressure for points, fear of failure are all leading people to hate Irish. That is understandable. Don't hate the language though, hate the system that teaches it in a bad way.

DAMN THE MAN!

Also, thanks Diorraing, shame its so hard to actually do anything about my suggestion!

segadreamcast

Jesjes wrote:

I absolutely agree with you! I had the ability to drop chemistry, thank god, otherwise I would have had a fail on my leaving cert.

I'm just pointing out, Enda Kennys suggestion treats the problem/symtom and not the cause.

If the education system had of been changed ten years ago, [longer, most likely, but for the purpose of the arguement] then your standard of Irish would be much higher and you would be learning at an ability to suit you.

However, it costs much much more to change the education system, then to just make a subject optional. And our government suck at changing anything. Just look how badly people did when they changed home eac and sciences for the first time in about 15 years. Standards were MUCH lower.

I think Irish for the leaving cert, pressure for points, fear of failure are all leading people to hate Irish. That is understandable. Don't hate the language though, hate the system that teaches it in a bad way.

DAMN THE MAN!

Also, thanks Diorraing, shame its so hard to actually do anything about my suggestion!

Everything you've said would lead anyone to the logical conclusion that, thus, Irish should be optional. Many of you are letting emotion and sentimentality interfere with logic on the issue.

Incidentally, this topic should really be on the 'Politics' forum - the Gaeilge board is hardly gonna ensure a rational unbiased debate on Irish, is it?

Solair

I think perhaps, Irish language classes could be kept compulsary but it could be made optional for your leaving cert examination.

i.e. it should be possible for every student to take some enjoyable irish classes, get a feel for the language... use it etc.. without being tortured by exams at the end.

The irish education system's totally skewed toward those who are good at languages.

i.e. to get into university you have to do English, Irish AND a modern European language... and to get the necessary points, you have to do pretty well at them too.

If you happen to have a strong maths/science ability and poor language skills you're screwed. If you happen to be very practical and do well at art and hands-on subjects you're equally screwed.

I think its grossly unfair to force people to take it as an academic subject and it's done irrepairable damage to the language as many people grow up hating it and seeing it as a compulsary burdon.

dudara

I'm an Irish speaker from Gaeltacht Mhuscraí. I don't actively promote Irish, which is a bit of a shame, but I am fiercely proud of it.

Making Irish optional is a joke. It needs to be compulsory, but the syllabus and teaching methods employed need a radical overhaul. In fact, jesjes' idea concerning the two-tier teaching approach is a very good idea.

segadreamcast

dudara wrote:

It needs to be compulsory,

Quantify that remark.

Suaimhneach

NoelRock, yes, a lot of us will be feircely proud of the language. But if we were to leave that aside, to make irish an optional subject would be the death of the language.

And you missed the point I made. You would not dislike [people in general as well] the irish language as much if you didnt have to struggle so much. People associate negative feelings towards it. THATS what needs to be changed. And thats changed by addressing the education system and the teaching methods.

But you're right, if I didnt care about the language I would just be logical about it and let it become optional. But if we let that happen it will just be another loss to us and our culture and another step towards becoming more "european".

mickd

We need to look at how best we can promote and strengthen the Irish language in the education system and in irish society . We can look at teaching methods at primary and secondary level. If this means making it optional in the Leaving Cert then it has to be. I have contributed to this debate on many times and have had 'lively jousts' with other boards members as I believe in having our own language. However its a psychological thing that if you are forced to do something that you don't like you will never change your view so as soon as the 'shackles are off' i.e when students leave school they sever any contact with the language. Comparisions with Wales we made in the Dail this morning in that modest targets are set and acheived.

dudara

why do I feel Irish needs to be compulsory.

My thoughts on this aren't probably to everyone's views, but hey, free speech and all. This country has fought anglicisation for a long time. In the 19th century, Irish was dying out as there was a common association with it and poverty. People were deliberately not speaking their mother tongue.

Along came the nationalist movement of the late 19th centurry, who were co-incidentally Irish speakers. They saw the link between nationalism and language. In modern Ireland, we're even more exposed to other influences than the Irish of a hundred years ago, which is even more reason to strengthen our national identity.

I despise the encroaching influence that England, for example, has on this country. Between 7-9pm, all you can see on the television are mainly english soaps, english talent (or talentless) shows. We, as a majority, are buying wholesale into a different country's way of life.

Now, I don't particularly mind if that continues, because after all we live in a world of supply and demand and there is demand for such english cráp. But we have to reinforce our Irishness as well.

Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining our national identity.

Otherwise, how will the winning captains of GAA teams accept their trophies?

Peanut

dudara wrote:

...
Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining our national identity.

And create more resentment towards it in the future from the current crop of school-leavers?

I absolutely despised having been force-fed Irish at school, not that I was particulary happy about some other compulsory subjects, but I got the distinct feeling that I was being forced to endure this pain for someone else's ideology and attempts to force a specific culture on me - and it was this in particular that was just wrong.

Ironic that English was indirectly forced upon the Irish in the past, and now some people want to return the favour on already pressured students.

You could argue that this is no different than compulsory English - however the fact remains that English is the mother tongue of the vast majority of the
population on this island.

If Irish needs to be promoted then find some other way than the George W. approach - it does no-one any favours, especially not the language itself.

And I would argue that language is only a small part of what you might call a national identity.

mickd

Peanut wrote:

And I would argue that language is only a small part of what you might call a national identity.

I would argue that for the vast majority of Irish people their national identity does not extend to having their own language. That is beacuse of the education system and the imposition of Irish language.

Suaimhneach

I havent read the last two post, and am in a rush, but there was a massive MASSIVE protest today in front of Trinity iirc, against what Enda Kenny said.

The people don't want it.

Will get more involved again, later.

Ron DMC

Jesjes wrote:

but there was a massive MASSIVE protest today in front of Trinity iirc, against what Enda Kenny said.

Yeah, I helped organise it. We had somewhere around 350/400 show up in the end. Twas fairly good. And when Enda stepped out of his office to talk to us, he had hardly a clue on what to say.
As a gaeilgeoir himself, he should be ashamed of his comments and realise that a better education system comes with change, not with scaling down.