Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

Peanut

Jesjes wrote:

...
The people don't want it.

Whatever. I think you are very wrong there.

I'm sure Ógra Fianna Fáil and Labour Youth don't want it, but ask the majority of secondary students about it and I will bet that you will get a polar opposite opinion. But apparently they don't count - they're just the ones being pushed around in this.

Notwithstanding the fact that it's mostly just politics, it's not as if he's calling for Irish to be dropped altogether.

"He is proposing that Irish remain a compulsory part of the curriculum up to Junior Certificate level but that students would then be given an option to drop the language in the final two years of secondary school. "
http://news.google.ie/url?sa=t&ct=us/2-0&fp=437bd23c899eb858&ei=Cct7Q-_KGriwaPDPiMAL&url=http%3A//www.nuzhound.com/goto.php%3Fid%3D132957&cid=0

Hardly shocking stuff, well overdue in my opinion.

Suaimhneach

Peanut wrote:

I absolutely despised having been force-fed Irish at school, not that I was particulary happy about some other compulsory subjects, but I got the distinct feeling that I was being forced to endure this pain for someone else's ideology and attempts to force a specific culture on me - and it was this in particular that was just wrong.

Woah, what a distinct feeling....

You make my point again. You dislike irish because you were forced to learn it. The problem is not the "forcing" it's what was "forced" and how it was done, do you follow? We are all forced to go to school, to pay bills etc. Heh, I get the distint feeling I pay bills so Bertie can waste it distroying our heritage.... ANYWAY. Its the content/method and not nessarcarly the subject that is the issue, and people don't recognise this. And they really need to start.

Peanut, I'd wager there are equal amounts of people for and against it, for many different reasons.

And saying the opinion of leaving cert students doesnt matter, you're right! What the heck do they know!? They just want to get through the leaving cert and continue on in whatever it is that they plan to do. Without the nagging need to study something they've been taught backwards for their 15 years or more in school. I'd say a small percentage of them actually think about what effect making irish optional on the leaving cert would actually have other than them having to sit one more/less exam. I did the leaving not to long ago, I can tell you, they won't care, and would carelessly throw away their language for an easier time. And who can blame them, the whole feckin' system is backwards!

Ronny Mitchell, are you involved with a political party or were you just helping out for the language? I'd like to get involved if there is no political agenda.

JustCoz

I think that Enda Kenny is a disgrace for even proposing the idea of making Irish optional for the Leaving Cert. He's only looking for a quick fix to a more intricate problem. The only thing that that would achieve would be to drive the language into extinction.

People don't hate Irish because it's compulsary, they hate it because it's being taught the wrong way. It's shocking the amount of people who spend 14 years learning Irish and can't now string a sentence together. I agree with the people who say that the course should be more oral-orientated. This is the only way to put the language into a practical use. However making it optional is completely the wrong way to go in my opinion.

simu

JustCoz wrote:

I think that Enda Kenny is a disgrace for even proposing the idea of making Irish optional for the Leaving Cert. He's only looking for a quick fix to a more intricate problem. The only thing that that would achieve would be to drive the language into extinction.

It does sound like a quick fix alright (and a sourse of cheap publicity). He didn't mention any concrete points about how the course would be improved for those who still decided to take Irish even if not compulsary. I was never a big FG fan anyway!

TDs are pretty clueless about languages. Bertie or some other TD in the Irish Times today was saying that there should be more emphasis on the spoken aspect and less on "boring" grammer. I agree with the first part but actually, it's important to understand the grammer of a language if you are going to learn to speak it well. The problem is that most students are taught grammer in a very patchy way so that it seems much more complicated and random than it actually is.

segadreamcast

Jesjes wrote:

Woah, what a distinct feeling....

You make my point again. You dislike irish because you were forced to learn it. The problem is not the "forcing" it's what was "forced" and how it was done, do you follow? We are all forced to go to school, to pay bills etc. Heh, I get the distint feeling I pay bills so Bertie can waste it distroying our heritage.... ANYWAY. Its the content/method and not nessarcarly the subject that is the issue, and people don't recognise this. And they really need to start.

*Buzz* Wrong.

Nobody likes doing things they have to do - like paying the bills, going to school, but these things are NECESSARY.

You know what people like less than doing things that they have to do though? Things that they have to do that are entirely unnecessary. Case in point: Irish. The "we have to because we have to" mentality doesn't wash. Nor does the "we have to because we're Irish". Being Irish meant a lot of things - such as being Catholic. However, this is no longer the case - our cultural identity evolves and, if we no longer have the need for a national language, then so be it. What, pray tell, are you Anglophobes fearing?

JustCoz

Having our own language is part of our identity as a nation. It's what distinguishes us from other countries.

Take Canada for example, it is such a young country, only 150 yrs old or something, they don't have their own language and not much culture to speak of. We have both and it's what makes our country special. It's got nothing to do with "Anglophobia".

Suaimhneach

Haha NoelRock! That was funny.

Yeah, I agree and understand where you're coming from in certain terms. There is no "need" to learn the language. But I feel, as many do, that if we give up that language [ and that is what we do when we dont teach it in our schools ] that were are just letting another little bit of us slip away.

I don't so much argue that "its our culture", though it is part of it. I argue more, that if we give it up, we inch closer and closer to being European and less and less "irish". And what it is to be irish is a whole other topic, but I certainly feel irish is part of it. And that it is "necessary" to learn it.

segadreamcast

Jesjes wrote:

Haha NoelRock! That was funny.

Yeah, I agree and understand where you're coming from in certain terms. There is no "need" to learn the language. But I feel, as many do, that if we give up that language [ and that is what we do when we dont teach it in our schools ] that were are just letting another little bit of us slip away.

I don't so much argue that "its our culture", though it is part of it. I argue more, that if we give it up, we inch closer and closer to being European and less and less "irish". And what it is to be irish is a whole other topic, but I certainly feel irish is part of it. And that it is "necessary" to learn it.

Ideological differences between us - I can hardly argue with that!

robindch

> Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining
> our national identity.

I sat through 12 years of Irish and haven't used it once in the 20 years since I left school. What a total waste of time!

ishmael whale

The main reason people seem to be defending compulsory Irish is on grounds that they see it as part of national identity. If it was, there would hardly be a need to make it compulsory. We don’t need to force people to play GAA, listen to Irish music or, for that matter, eat Tayto or drink red lemonade.

Irish is simply not part of the identity of many Irish people. Forcing it on them creates resentment. People advocating the removal of compulsory Irish will, in the long run, do more to promote its wider use.

Part of the problem in teaching the language is there still seems to be a reluctance to accept that it needs to be taught in the same way as a foreign language, as most of the children will come from households with very little knowledge. I made this point on a thread on the Politics board and was challenged to substantiate it. I did by posting these extracts from ‘Inis Dom’, the primary school Irish text that I’m aware of, which might be of interest to this discussion. It seems to be the text in use in many primary school, as any parent I’ve discussed this with knows of it.

To give context, the basic English reader in use for, say, infants opens with a section that explains to parents how they should use the text e.g. encouraging the child to discuss what’s happening in pictures, as well as them just reading whatever is printed on the page. Hunky dory, any parent knows what they’re supposed to be doing.

In ‘Inis Dom’ the equivalent text is in Irish. Here’s a few extracts, along with what sense I can make of them. I’m not saying these directions are hard for someone with good Irish, but someone with mediocre Irish is lost.

Reamhra Comhrá ranga, comhrá beírte, cleachtaí éisteacha, séalta, dramaí, dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi cainte, cleachtai sodheanta, tomhais, rabhloga – tá said go leir sa leabhar seo. ….

I can make out here the author is telling us all of the things that are in the book (‘sa leabhar seo’) but, apart from a few individual words namely ‘comhra’ lesson?, ‘cainte’ talk, I can’t actually tell what this sentence is saying. For example, I have no idea what dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi, sodheanta, tomhais or rabhloga are supposed to mean.

Sna ceachtanna athbhreithnithe deantar dul siar ar a bhfuil deanta ag an rang trí mhean na scealaiochta is na dramaiochta…..

He’s telling us something about things being done in class ‘a bhfuil deanta ag an rang’ but what those things are, and whether we should be taking any interest in them, I just don’t know.

Meadóidh sin, go bhfios dom, a sult is a suim sna scealta ceanna…..

I might as well be looking down a manhole.

I can’t account for why Irish textbooks are still written like this, apart from a reluctance to admit that despite all the effort put into revival Irish is still largely unknown to most of us. Removing compulsory leaving cert Irish is a necessary measure in acknowledging the reality of the position of language in Irish life.

segadreamcast

ishmael whale wrote:

The main reason people seem to be defending compulsory Irish is on grounds that they see it as part of national identity. If it was, there would hardly be a need to make it compulsory. We don’t need to force people to play GAA, listen to Irish music or, for that matter, eat Tayto or drink red lemonade.

Irish is simply not part of the identity of many Irish people. Forcing it on them creates resentment. People advocating the removal of compulsory Irish will, in the long run, do more to promote its wider use.

Part of the problem in teaching the language is there still seems to be a reluctance to accept that it needs to be taught in the same way as a foreign language, as most of the children will come from households with very little knowledge. I made this point on a thread on the Politics board and was challenged to substantiate it. I did by posting these extracts from ‘Inis Dom’, the primary school Irish text that I’m aware of, which might be of interest to this discussion. It seems to be the text in use in many primary school, as any parent I’ve discussed this with knows of it.

To give context, the basic English reader in use for, say, infants opens with a section that explains to parents how they should use the text e.g. encouraging the child to discuss what’s happening in pictures, as well as them just reading whatever is printed on the page. Hunky dory, any parent knows what they’re supposed to be doing.

In ‘Inis Dom’ the equivalent text is in Irish. Here’s a few extracts, along with what sense I can make of them. I’m not saying these directions are hard for someone with good Irish, but someone with mediocre Irish is lost.I can make out here the author is telling us all of the things that are in the book (‘sa leabhar seo’) but, apart from a few individual words namely ‘comhra’ lesson?, ‘cainte’ talk, I can’t actually tell what this sentence is saying. For example, I have no idea what dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi, sodheanta, tomhais or rabhloga are supposed to mean. He’s telling us something about things being done in class ‘a bhfuil deanta ag an rang’ but what those things are, and whether we should be taking any interest in them, I just don’t know.I might as well be looking down a manhole.

I can’t account for why Irish textbooks are still written like this, apart from a reluctance to admit that despite all the effort put into revival Irish is still largely unknown to most of us. Removing compulsory leaving cert Irish is a necessary measure in acknowledging the reality of the position of language in Irish life.

Bravo, you expressed my sentiments (and those of many others, I assure you) far more eloquently than I could.

Gael

robindch wrote:

> Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining
> our national identity.

I sat through 12 years of Irish and haven't used it once in the 20 years since I left school. What a total waste of time!

Personally I've been out of school for a while and any aspect of Maths and English that I've used since, was something I had learned in primary school(i.e. basic arithmetic and spelling)
All I've ever did throughout secondary school was short stories and poetry and stuff like calculus and trigonometry which I've never used since and am never likely to either. Shakespeare, Keats and Kavanagh. What job would they get me?
So do you consider all that to have been a waste? Should I have been allowed drop English and maths at 12 years of age purely because I had the basics for the market place. Is that all education is about?

Suaimhneach

robindch wrote:

> Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining
> our national identity.

I sat through 12 years of Irish and haven't used it once in the 20 years since I left school. What a total waste of time!

Maybe if you had of been taught properly in school, you would have had the oppertunity to use it. Ever think of it like that....?

Suaimhneach

ishmael whale wrote:

The main reason people seem to be defending compulsory Irish is on grounds that they see it as part of national identity. If it was, there would hardly be a need to make it compulsory. We don’t need to force people to play GAA, listen to Irish music or, for that matter, eat Tayto or drink red lemonade.

Irish is simply not part of the identity of many Irish people. Forcing it on them creates resentment. People advocating the removal of compulsory Irish will, in the long run, do more to promote its wider use.

Part of the problem in teaching the language is there still seems to be a reluctance to accept that it needs to be taught in the same way as a foreign language, as most of the children will come from households with very little knowledge. I made this point on a thread on the Politics board and was challenged to substantiate it. I did by posting these extracts from ‘Inis Dom’, the primary school Irish text that I’m aware of, which might be of interest to this discussion. It seems to be the text in use in many primary school, as any parent I’ve discussed this with knows of it.

To give context, the basic English reader in use for, say, infants opens with a section that explains to parents how they should use the text e.g. encouraging the child to discuss what’s happening in pictures, as well as them just reading whatever is printed on the page. Hunky dory, any parent knows what they’re supposed to be doing.

In ‘Inis Dom’ the equivalent text is in Irish. Here’s a few extracts, along with what sense I can make of them. I’m not saying these directions are hard for someone with good Irish, but someone with mediocre Irish is lost.I can make out here the author is telling us all of the things that are in the book (‘sa leabhar seo’) but, apart from a few individual words namely ‘comhra’ lesson?, ‘cainte’ talk, I can’t actually tell what this sentence is saying. For example, I have no idea what dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi, sodheanta, tomhais or rabhloga are supposed to mean. He’s telling us something about things being done in class ‘a bhfuil deanta ag an rang’ but what those things are, and whether we should be taking any interest in them, I just don’t know.I might as well be looking down a manhole.

I can’t account for why Irish textbooks are still written like this, apart from a reluctance to admit that despite all the effort put into revival Irish is still largely unknown to most of us. Removing compulsory leaving cert Irish is a necessary measure in acknowledging the reality of the position of language in Irish life.

You just pointed out that the "revival" that is mainly focused in the schools for kids isn't working. How parents are completely lost. How this doesn't work. I agree with you.

Don't you think we should change this as opposed to just getting rid of it?

Peanut

Gael wrote:

All I've ever did throughout secondary school was short stories and poetry and stuff like calculus and trigonometry which I've never used since and am never likely to either. Shakespeare, Keats and Kavanagh. What job would they get me?

You may not be required to quote Shakespeare in a job interview, but that's not the point - it's studied as a tool to improve language comprehension & composition. Same idea with maths beyond basic numeracy.

So do you consider all that to have been a waste? Should I have been allowed drop English and maths at 12 years of age purely because I had the basics for the market place. Is that all education is about?

Yes I think people should be given more choice instead of less, however this has to reflect the realism of the environment that they are in.

There would be little point in compulsory teaching of, for example, Portugeuse to German students, why then do we have to suffer the forced imposition of a language that is in effect foreign to most students.

You may not like it, but Irish is for all practical purposes a foreign language to the majority of Irish students.

It's completely understandable why this jars with some people, however I strongly disagree with the ludicrous mindset of forcing a given 2nd language on to people, throughout secondary, without giving them a choice in the matter.

The fact is that it doesn't work, and it creates far more problems than it allegedly tries to 'solve'.

When are they going to stop? When everyone on the island is forced to speak as Gaeilge?

This is politics, and to use school children in such a way is tantamount to linguistic child abuse.

JustCoz

I'm just wondering, a few people have suggested that by making Irish optional this will ultimately promote it's wider use. How?

We all know that making it optional is just a way of phasing it out. I will admit that when I was younger I didn't like Irish much, so I can see where other people are coming from, but after spending 5 summers in the Gaeltacht have developed a life-long love for it. I think that people see it as a waste of time because they see it as being a dead language. But if you go down to Conamara or Ghaoith Dobhair you'll see that it is very much alive.

ishmael whale

JustCoz wrote:

I'm just wondering, a few people have suggested that by making Irish optional this will ultimately promote it's wider use. How?

Firstly, by removing the resentment that comes from imposition. That allows people to relate to Irish simply as a language and not as something that someone else thinks should be part of your identity.

Secondly, by forcing the Irish language teaching establishment to accommodate the needs of English speakers. If you’re not sure what I mean, have a look at my post above.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50402311&postcount=41

Peanut

JustCoz wrote:

I'm just wondering, a few people have suggested that by making Irish optional this will ultimately promote it's wider use. How?

We all know that making it optional is just a way of phasing it out.

No it's not - the parts of Irish language that I like are those relating to music, lyrics, art in general - bascially whatever I DIDN'T learn (or not learn) in school.

People don't take well to having stuff rammed down their throats - I would have thought this basic concept was clear to everyone.

Redesign the whole teaching structure - split it into different optional parts - give people more choice in what they want to learn & don't try to force them to be fluent in it - it just doesn't work without the will from the student, and this doesn't come from heavy handedness.

gingerjimjim

I dislike speaking and learning the language but i have no problem as it as a language. I think it should be optional, as it is falling in to great disuse and i think it nothing is going to stop it's decline. I still think it should be a subject, just not cumpolsery

JustCoz

IMO the biggest problem at the moment is that the course is very grammer-oriented and in most schools you don't start to do oral work until 6th year. In reality were not going to use written Irish after school/college but spoken Irish is the way to promote and encourage use of the language.

Is mór an trua é that so many people hate it because they can't speak it. Real fluency in any language comes from putting it into practise by speaking it. If there was 100% more emphasis on spoken Irish in schools i think that this would solve a large part of the problem.

donaghkebab

if you made all these changes in the primary school and make all schools gaelscoils you'd have the kids talking in no time

ishmael whale

donaghkebab wrote:

if you made all these changes in the primary school and make all schools gaelscoils you'd have the kids talking in no time

Indeed, more could be achieved if all primary schools had the same level of resourcing as gaelscoils. But that costs money.

Grudaire

Gabh mo leiscéil, ach an mbeidh an bearla 'optional' do daltaí gaelach?

For the less able among you will english be optional for irish students?

If not this blind racism, with no thought for the culture which will be destroyed

Ron DMC

Cliste wrote:

Gabh mo leiscéil, ach an mbeidh an bearla 'optional' do daltaí gaelach?

Aontaím leat gur cheart go mbeadh an rogha againn i ngach ábhar má tá an rogha ann don Ghaeilge, ach i ndáiríre ní dóigh liom go dtarlóidh aon rud ar bhonn na rudaí a dúirt Enda.

If not this blind racism, with no thought for the culture which will be destroyed

Ní bheinn ró-bhuartha, beidh an chultúr fós ann, fiú más gá go ndéanfaidh daltaí rogha é a choinneáil beo. Táim dóchasach go ndéanfaidh daoine an cinneadh cheart.

SeanW

Well Enda Kenny's has promised to make Irish non-mandatory for Leaving Cert students. He's got all the TNaG people, Irish Language Summer schools (who worry that their pointless services would be dispensable), and Trevor Sgt. (who teaches Irish at Balbriggan apparently) all up in arms.

Now this is gonna be very unpopular (here) and I'm prepared to take some flack for it but I've got to say it. As a person who thinks the Irish language is a pointless, archaic relic that we'd be 2x better off without, that it's a bloody waste of time, money, valuable student-teacher hours, and in some cases common sense (An Daingean anybody?) I think this is a bloody wonderful idea and I'm tempted to give Fine Gael all preferences in the next election just over this alone. I hear someone is planning a demonstration to FG offices to protest their policy and I'm half tempted to launch a counterdemonstration in their support.

By all means if someone wants to learn, speak, live through Gaeilge so be it. I support anyone's right to stand on ceremony if they want to. Just please stop with the "we have to keep it everywhere at any cost" madness.

p~b

i dont think it should mandatory after leaving cert, mainly because i knew i didnt need it for what i was gonna do after college and it didnt involve me using irish and i never had any interest in the language so i wasted my time doing it for leaving cert

segadreamcast

SeanW wrote:

Well Enda Kenny's has promised to make Irish non-mandatory for Leaving Cert students. He's got all the TNaG people, Irish Language Summer schools (who worry that their pointless services would be dispensable), and Trevor Sgt. (who teaches Irish at Balbriggan apparently) all up in arms.

Now this is gonna be very unpopular (here) and I'm prepared to take some flack for it but I've got to say it. As a person who thinks the Irish language is a pointless, archaic relic that we'd be 2x better off without, that it's a bloody waste of time, money, valuable student-teacher hours, and in some cases common sense (An Daingean anybody?) I think this is a bloody wonderful idea and I'm tempted to give Fine Gael all preferences in the next election just over this alone. I hear someone is planning a demonstration to FG offices to protest their policy and I'm half tempted to launch a counterdemonstration in their support.

By all means if someone wants to learn, speak, live through Gaeilge so be it. I support anyone's right to stand on ceremony if they want to. Just please stop with the "we have to keep it everywhere at any cost" madness.

If you do launch a counterdemonstration, I'll be more than happy to throw myself behind it. If you do ever go ahead with it, it's My Boards Name(i.e.NoelRock) @gmail.com.

That protest at FG offices already came and went from students, all the Irish language societies in third level had a protest march last week.

Gael

SeanW wrote:

Well Enda Kenny's has promised to make Irish non-mandatory for Leaving Cert students.

No he didn't. He may do so if he gets into power, but he only expressed a personal opinion at the party conference. It has not been passed as FG official policy.

SeanW

Gael wrote:

Is that all education is about?

YES! In my view, the purpose of education is to give skill and useful knowledge to the student. The whole point of going to school is to prepare you for college/work and life is it not? I believe it is. And forcing people to learn a ridiculous dead language just for the sake of it, doesn't serve anyones interests except those guardians of (their view of) our identity. Which is really crazy.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate the Gailge language, I just dislike it's imposition on the population and the string of crazy moves made by the goverment to support it. So that means if a patriotic young man (or woman) wants to learn their native historical language in secondary school, so be it and I'd support them 100%. Or if a private person or organisation wants to stand on ceremony and use more of the language themselves, that's fine too. Perhaps the GAA could gaelicify things. Perhaps Gerry Adams could put an Gaelige test for entry by volunteers into the IR ... oops they're out of business.

You get the idea. It's a big world out there and this is a free country. If someone wants to learn, speak and use the Irish language, so be it.

We've come so far since the politicans did a U-turn from Dev's vision of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads, of defining "self sufficiency" as not importing anything from those evil brits, and when the Church ruled with an Iron fist - with all the resulting problems. Think how far Ireland has come since then.

Now imagine we finished the job and made Irish an elective subject in secondary school, included in a "pick one" list inclduing more sciences, foreign languages, technology, engineering or anything else that has a use in todays society. Think how much further we could reach if our young people could get 1/7th more out of their secondary schooling without any/much more school hours or government funding. That education focused on modern reality instead of historical fancy.

Also, can anyone show me an example of a soveirgn European state that maintains official multilingualism just for the sake of it? Some countries have official multilingualism, such as Switzerland (German and French) and Belgium (French and Dutch). But this is out of sheer necessity. North America? Does Americans feel "less American" because they speak English only? Is there ANY paralell for what we're doing? I doubt it.

robindch

> I hear someone is planning a demonstration to FG offices
> to protest their policy and I'm half tempted to launch a
> counterdemonstration in their support.

Include me in in this.

I work in Dawson Street and during the "lets make Irish a European Language" (aka, jobs for the boys) scrap last year, squads of paddy-nationalists used to turn up to demonstrate outside the EU offices on the corner with Molesworth street, just opposite my office window.

When one of these feeble pillocks arrived with a bunch of pre-teens and got them to start shouting "Tir gan teanga is tir gan anam" -- a country without a lanugage is a country without a soul -- well, that bugged me.

Whatever about personality-free adults who decide that a language is just the thing to give them something called "an identity", well, you can't go brainwashing kids, so I went downstairs and had a word with him. Not that it did any good of course, being outnumbered thirty to one and all of *them* yelling. And so I went back to work and the whining and arrant chest-thumping continued.

Who knows, maybe it'll be mandatory red hair + freckles next time, or prosthetic shillelaghs, unionized GAA and an inflatable De Valera for everyone's bedroom.

<grunt>