Waterford North Quays

JohnC.

If they did move, you might just be swapping one empty unit for another. They own the current premises and are famously reluctant to let old premises go in case a competitor moves in.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526324#Comment_120526324

I wonder if the second unit will go and combine into one store. The current stores in Waterford are very dated and they have refurbished a lot of stores.

Valhalla90

This move if true by Dunnes will add nothing to the city centre and we should be careful as Dunnes is known to sit on empty buildings that they own. They have done this in Limerick and Enniscorthy and it has really brought down the respective locations. It would be much better if Debenhams was divided into two big units. Dunnes stay where they are. Also Ferrybank will eventually most likely also open as Dunnes!

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530485#Comment_120530485

Yeah, that is a big danger alright. Dunnes have been sitting on the old Dunnes on Michael St since the 1990's. They clearly have no interest in it. Just want to block someone going in there and reducing the amount of money they get from Waterford. There would be a serious chance someone like M&S food would take the old city square Dunnes unit if it became available. To Dunnes that would be a disaster.

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527250#Comment_120527250

If they go ahead with it, it will surely be about combining to one store. But as said above, what will happen to the empty units in that case. Will they be left vacant for decades!

JohnC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530696#Comment_120530696

Eh? The Michael St. premises is in use. The whole ladieswear department is in there. There's not really enough room for everything in City Square. It's quite small there.

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533725#Comment_120533725

Eh? That is not quite the whole story. When city square opened Dunnes moved in and left the Michael St store empty for years. They could not open a supermarket in Waterford because of an old deal with Darrers Stores. It was only because Darrers Stores closed and Dunnes opened a supermarket in city square, moving the ladieswear department to Michael St. If the Darrers Stores deal still stood Michael St may well still be empty. Dunnes form on these things suggests it could be.

Asdfgh2020

I wonder do people in say Sligo town or athlone have similar negative (paranoid even) views of central government and whinge and moan about how their region is ignored……could probably also include Tralee, Ennis and letterkenny in the same list….!

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534084#Comment_120534084

Sligo are looking for improved Cardiac care facilities and got promised them, they've a relatively well funded 3rd level institution that has much less students than WIT alone and also had nowhere near the academic research so probably didnt have the same push/care or care for 3rd level.

Athlone to Galway is less than an hour in a car.

The Connaught region has several facilities that the South East doesnt.

Ennis to Limerick is about 30 mins in car, about 50 to Galway. I dont think anyone would be complaining if there were 2 level institutes and 2 big hosptials with 24/7 within that range.

Kerry and Tralee weighs in behind Cork for a lot things but most of Kerry is closer to either Cork or Limerick than most of the South East is to any large hospital or university. Norma Foley is pulling in money now for their hospital.

Letterkenny to Derry hospital roughly 30 minutes by normal car, they're not particularly concerned with 3rd level - big focus on farming or teaching for those that stay - might change in time.

Maybe your gut feeling has more weight than facts such as diversion of spending, using the population from Waterford to get a hospital built in Cork for example. Not in a big conspiracy but because the money had to come from somewhere and who cares about the South East really, not our TDs from the look of it.

Maybe someone you know will have a heart attack or stroke and you might have a read of how every minute counts, I dont think at that point you'd be very happy that resources were diverted to Cork in that event. Oh and it is very likely you will know more than one person who will have a heart attack in the future in addition to those who you probably already know.

PTH2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526324#Comment_120526324

What would happen to Dunnes current unit in that case ??

JohnC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534049#Comment_120534049

Exactly. They're not just sitting on it.

Aquos76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534537#Comment_120534537

That's the million dollar question, they wont want to release it for someone else to come in that will directly be in competition with them, shur look what they have done with the Ferrybank shopping centre, rather than come out of their lease, they decided to take it to the courts, then after they lost that case, they decided to buy the whole building from Nama and latest reports are they have finally decided to put it up for sale again. The word over there is Noel Frisby has taken an interest in it and has been through it with a fine tooth comb

Valhalla90

By letting the Debenhams unit to Dunnes could be a disaster for City Square in the long run. If I was City Square I’d split the unit, M&S on the ground floor. Zara upstairs and H&M in the front unit into Arundel Square. Problems of the centre solved. Dunnes can’t be trusted not to sit on idle units.

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120535223#Comment_120535223

I'm sure they're not leaving it empty for the sake of it. If they could get those shops in, they would've already you'd imagine

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120535550#Comment_120535550

Change of ownership of City Square from a US property company to Neville's of Wexford complicated matters.

Valhalla90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120535578#Comment_120535578

If nothing happens in the next few months in terms of lettings there is something seriously wrong!

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120535759#Comment_120535759

Absolutely agree.

There is money about, there is demand, which is known but leaking out of this area like a sieve (I undertand it can be assessed through credit card data), retail spend is rising yet we are still trailing. Its counter intuitive. Internet shopping aside, there are obviously issues at play and actors at play about which there is little clarity. There is always concern about the Dublin estate agents who handle a lot of this stuff.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534305#Comment_120534305

Rob Cass and his made up stats about 1 hour commute populations have ye driven half mad. The VAT take alone in Cork is more than the entire tax take in South East. The idea that money from the Waterford is funding Cork or being diverted to Cork is absurd, the tax take from Cork in 2021 was nearly double the entire Waterford tax take in a decade.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/receipts/net-receipts-by-county.pdf

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120536329#Comment_120536329

Your post proves the very point that people have been trying to make.

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120536329#Comment_120536329

Waterford and South Tipp got moved in under Corks jurisdiction adding 200,000 people to the area that they cater for, this is what allows them to improve services there if they can ignore where the 200k people actually live.

I dont think Ive suggested at any point that Micheal Martin shimmied his way in to the revenue offices and took a bunch of cash notes out from a secret vault. Whats happening is different but nonetheless just as bad.

Just to look at the tax take you posted Waterford plus half of Tipp for 2021 would 230, Cork would be 1420. Thats about 17%, any publicly funded body, institute or otherwise would snap your hand off for a 17% increase... Before you run off to the shower to have your imaginary argument though this isnt how anything is funded despite what you think.

Edit: the reason Im making the point about commuting distance is the EU recommends under 1 hour drive for heart attacks and strokes, South East is far below that but apparently its okay because some consultant in Belfast said we could use a cocktail to break down any blockages (which nobody will ever do because its as likely to kill a patient) or use a helicopter that can use a magically appearing helipad in a magical space outside the hosptial that doesnt exist outside of a magical fairytale.

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120535578#Comment_120535578

So city square had Zara, H&M and M&S ready to sign contracts but then sold the place with no tenants. Youd think having tenants wouldve helped them sell at a bigger amount

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537010#Comment_120537010

That’s not the point you made. You said “the money had to come from somewhere” when in reality there is more than enough tax money generated in Cork to fund the healthcare and public services in the county multiple times over. If you think that 7.5 billion in public money is spent in Cork every year and there is a need a need to pull in other counties tax take to make up the shortfall, I’d love to see a rough breakdown of where you think that money is going. In reality the tax take from Cork is being used to fund public services in other counties as it is one of only two counties in the country that is a net contributor to the exchequer.

I don’t disagree with your edit but that’s not a result of Cork taking money from Waterford.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120536908#Comment_120536908

It doesn’t. Cork has a huge tax take mostly because a large population (please ignore Rob Cass population numbers and look at the CSO) a big Pharma industry which is located here due to the deep water harbour and Apple who are here because a local business went to California, when Apple were a tiny start up in the 80’s, to pitch the site to them. It’s not because of a “Cork mafia” in government or any preferential treatment. In fact the public spend here is appalling, what was the last major infrastructure project built in Cork? The M8 20 years ago? Maybe you could say Dunkettle roundabout at a push…

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537400#Comment_120537400

You somehow read my post and are again arguing with me about something I never said, its about population numbers. You need to start looking at population and not tax returns.

Yes the money does have to come from somewhere the health budget. Only a massively big idiot would think that suddenly the Cork hospital grouping suddenly had access to vat from Waterford and Tipp.

Waterford and South Tipp have boosted the Cork hosptial group by 200,000 people, they can and have been making claims on behalf of this increased population, hence new elective hospitals being built in Cork.

Literally one of the consultants in Cork who operates a private clinic off of the back of the public hospital said with the expected increase demand from Waterford and South Tipp the hospital and his private clinic would expand.

Cork gets a lot of funding you dont even realise. UCC gets constant additional funding. CIT got 10 million for a running track. Elective surgeries being built out by Sarsfield courts, the Dunkettle roundabout was/is fkin massive, the bypasses for Castlemartyr and Killeagh on the way, the new motorway being built to Limerick, even something like the Carragaline relief road is a massive project anywhere else. Thats just off the top of my head.

Probably Cork is somewhat shafted with benefits to tax return but it wouldnt have that tax return without Ireland around it, its the cost of doing business much like Ireland being in the EU, the cost is there but the benefits are far greater than if you were to exist outside of it. However you dont seem to give a sh*t about people not having cardiac care within a reasonable time frame because you dont have to. Its like anyone paying the higher rate of tax saying they dont want to pay the higher rate at all because they dont have children going to school. Besides the worse outcomes from not having cardiac care will result in a lot more expense in the long run for things like physio and rehabilitation.

Im not saying theres some big Cabal of Cork politicians out to get Waterford and the South East but when it came down to funding the South East was the easy target to divvy up to provide services elsewhere. If the South East had its own hospital group (like it used to) it would be a lot easier to get actual healthcare for half a million people, but because its split off in chunks its seen as providing a service to an area that already has one.

Please try to not to put any more strawmen arguments together and have an argument against something I never said. And for f*cks sake please stop bringing up Rob Cass, I'd consider the man delusional at best.

Edit: if they built a motorway to Cork where a lot of the South East's services are now provided most of my arguments would be moot, but as things stand it is just too long a distance to make sense.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537671#Comment_120537671

You do know that Galway is also getting an elective hospital and that Cork has well over double the population of Galway and is only 20% bigger in size? Cork alone has more than enough of a population to justify the elective hospital and doesn’t need 200k from Waterford and Clonmel. I’m sure there is an increased budget for the day to day handling of the services for that population but I’d love to see what infrastructure was built off the back of this that otherwise wouldn’t be justified? Private consultants benefiting is of zero consequence to the public. The decision in the Herity report was made on what they said was a lack of population density in the South East, it wasn’t made by a secretive Cork cabal to gerrymander services to the region, which is what you are implying.

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537947#Comment_120537947

You genuinely believe that adding 200000 people would would only add to day to day expenditure? You are joking right?

Yeah, I am implying that the South East was split up so that services could be upgraded elsewhere, just not in some shady way, its just the normal way that politics is done in this country. Dont be so naive.

Itr most definitely wouldnt be the first report that was influenced or just badly put together. The Herrity report itself does not actually take into account the the population of the South East *see Dr. Patrick Owens comments on it. It makes a recommendation on best value for money based on Herrity's limitied understanding.

At the end of the day health is a cost and not profit seeking exercise, with the push of a pen a consultant in Belfast who never visited the sites, never bothered to use the actual population, went against recommendations consigned between 250000 to ~500000 people to over an hour and half time to get to a hospital that can deal with a hear attack or stoke.

Just for a second imagine that you're in your living room with someone you know and they hit the ground out of the blue and cant talk, you ring for an ambulance but its Friday at 5pm. You need to now wait for an ambulance to get to you and then they've to get past all the traffic in Waterford, Killeagh, Castlemartyr, the tailback before Midleton, the Jack Lynch tunnel (in a normal car setting out immediately with no traffic it will take about 1 hour 40). (Its worse for someone in New Ross.)

I genuinely find your level of empathy shocking but the lack of provision of cardiac services will end up costing far more in the long run with worse outcomes, more rehabilitation and therapy, people needing care or put in to a nursing home when they wouldnt have needed it at all, etc. As usual the Government and civil service are penny smart and pound stupid.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120538132#Comment_120538132

Can you give an example of any facility that the 200k made viable that was otherwise unviable? You said the elective hospital was only chosen for Cork because of the added population of Waterford, which is obviously nonsense if you look at the other locations where elective hospitals were chosen for. Your core argument that Waterford and Tipp were rolled into the South West in order to make services viable that the existing catchment was too small to support is clearly untrue. The move was to save money, not to make Cork viable.

I haven’t said anything about Waterford and what level of care should be available there so I don’t know why you are commenting on my empathy? I’m pointing out the clear flaws in your reasoning as to why that provision of care is unavailable in Waterford.

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120538456#Comment_120538456

Yeah adding roughly 200000 people have clearly not added any ability to upgrade or add facilities. Odd considering the Herrity report reasoning for recommending the thing in the first place was to upgrade the facilities in Cork.

You've waffled on about vat intake, the corporation tax from Europe, sorry - apple as reasoning why Cork should have more facilities expanded but not the Southeast. So you have argued against a basic level of health care being provided to hundereds thousands of people based on proximity to Cork, so yeah Id say you lack empathy and a bit of common sense. Both regions deserve good healthcare at the end of the day,

I find it weird someone from Cork would come on a thread about the Waterford north quays and start declaring anyone in the South east paranoid because we think we deserve 24/7 cardiac care.(Edit sorry that wasnt you) I still do find it weird anyone from Cork would come on to a Waterford thread about the north quays mentioning vat intake from Waterford is why the South East doesnt deserve a basic level of health care.

Edit: what flaws are there in providing a basic level of cardiac care to 500k people over a relatively small area

azimuth17

Without the addition of Waterford and South Tipp, many existing tertiary/quaternary services or hoped to be developed ones in Cork would not be fully viable. Population base would be just over 700k. That is the issue. The Galway catchment for new elective hospital will be over 1m.

A friend of mine who was on the board of UCC says that the prevailing opinion there for the past two generations is that Limerick escaped via UL from the Cork university and medical education sphere and the same cannot be allowed to happen with Waterford based on the simpleand obvious logic of losing access to market share. All Cork medical.educational/commercial politics whether state dor not, revolve around that existential idea and powerful Cork ministers use their influence on policy in that direction. The same logic applies to Wexford/Carlow /Kilkenny portion of the southeast region and Dublin influence.

Asdfgh2020

Thread needs to get back on to original subject. Not the macro and micro economics of the region and petty ‘point scoring’ amongst contributors (mostly male…?) who act like they have the biggest ‘man-hood’…!!

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534612#Comment_120534612

So you agree they kept it for their use, correct? Why hold on to it for years then when they had no use for it?