M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

Ste.phen

Victor, I think that green circle is Rath Lugh, it's overgrown with forest, but it's noticeable from other photos.

D'Peoples Voice

Xyndrix wrote:

Heard Kenny on local radio the other morning and the distinct impression I got from what he said is that .......FG will destroy it as well.....

As I said everyone in central Government(except the Greens) will go ahead with the route suggested by Local Government, why because

Meath County Council undertook an extensive consultation process over a three year period. While consultation is, of course, required under planning law, Meath County Council went a great deal further than is legally required.
The project team wanted to ensure that everyone who might be impacted in any way by the new road; or anyone who had a view on the road, whether or not they might personally be impacted, would have the chance to have their voice heard. The consultation process was advertised extensively and was also conducted locally in Co Meath. Over 4,000 people visited public consultation meetings at a variety of venues and their inputs were recorded and considered.

http://www.nra.ie/Archaeology/DownloadableDocuments/d1413.PDF
Central Government CANNOT now chose an alternative route to local government because that would be undemocratic, local government chose this route after taking into account the views of local people!

BrianD

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

As I said everyone in central Government(except the Greens) will go ahead with the route suggested by Local Government, why because


http://www.nra.ie/Archaeology/DownloadableDocuments/d1413.PDF
Central Government CANNOT now chose an alternative route to local government because that would be undemocratic, local government chose this route after taking into account the views of local people!

Of course they can! Why would it be undemocratic. It was a consultation that was seriously flawed and not a referendum. In Dun Laoghaire there was a public consulation on the building for the pier and the council decided on the option that was not the 'popular' choice. Furthermore the route of the N3 is a national decision and not a county one.

I recall seeing the consultation at the time. Most people would only have been looking at the part of the route that effected them plus it was very evident that everybody knew that route would be picked for them regardless of their submissions.

The public consultation is only a whitewash, a tip of the hat to the locals while national infrastructure is being driven through their area.

Ps. Read P.17 of the PDF. I bet they didn't think that they would find another historic site on the route.

mike65

Acording to the Sunday Times Dick Roche knew about the latest discovery 2 weeks before Martin Cullen turned the sod on the current section. Cullen was'nt told!

Mike.

Gaspode

Roll on this M3, I cant wait. I couldnt give two hoots about Tara - lets face it, its only a field with some bumps on it. Its not like its somewhere worth a visit, without doubt the most dispaaointing and over-hyped national monument we have.
There is hardly a field in this country that wont turn up some archeological find, so at some stage we're just going to have to get over the fact that we're building roads over some heap of crap our forefathers let go to rack and ruin. They certainly didnt shed and do-gooder tears when they were ripping down our forests.

mackerski

Igy wrote:

Victor, I think that green circle is Rath Lugh, it's overgrown with forest, but it's noticeable from other photos.

Hang about, your linked image mentions something about Opus Dei 200m to the right of the picture. I can suddenly see a tiny deviation (about 200m) that should solve the problem and make (almost) everyone happy

Victor

Igy wrote:

Victor, I think that green circle is Rath Lugh, it's overgrown with forest, but it's noticeable from other photos.

No, Rath Lugh would appear to be to the right of the right hand red lines.

_Kaiser_

deswalsh wrote:

Roll on this M3, I cant wait. I couldnt give two hoots about Tara - lets face it, its only a field with some bumps on it. Its not like its somewhere worth a visit, without doubt the most dispaaointing and over-hyped national monument we have.
There is hardly a field in this country that wont turn up some archeological find, so at some stage we're just going to have to get over the fact that we're building roads over some heap of crap our forefathers let go to rack and ruin. They certainly didnt shed and do-gooder tears when they were ripping down our forests.

Have to agree here. Heritage is all well and good, but not at the cost of progressing a road that is badly needed in Meath. Of course, the only fear is that with two tolls on it, many people will avoid it - just like the M4.

At that point of course we'll have all these eco-warriors telling us we destroyed Tara for nothing.

The road should go ahead as planned (it's been delayed long enough at this stage) and ideally without the tolls - but then that's not likely to happen

Navan Junction

Kaiser2000 wrote:

At that point of course we'll have all these eco-warriors telling us we destroyed Tara for nothing.

Eco-warriors...:rolleyes: Oh Jayz, you can be uneasy about something like the M3 route without being an eco warrior.

And in fairness, I think everyone in Meath wants the new road but there are many that are uncomfortable with it's route.

So you have people that are torn between wanting to see it moved and not wanting to delay it a second further..

Realistically, it should have been built by now. It's a collosal balls up that work hasn't even commenced.

Remember, it went through the planning process at about the same time as the new N2 did...........................

Zoney

Actually it is a problem that the road is so desperately needed in Meath. It betrays the complete lack of infrastructure to support the ill-planned and unplanned development and commuting patterns. If you think the M3 will be a panacea, you'll be quite disappointed. Even with the M50 upgrade, road upgrades aren't even keeping pace with traffic growth. I'm not suggesting we don't build roads, but they shouldn't just be chasing existing patterns; but rather planned cohesively in conjunction with planning of housing, industry and public transport.

Of course that would require our politicians not to have the same friends, and a greater level of competence and interest in getting things done. There's little excuse for the current lot with the resources they had.

I really think the M3 will just be a monument to the disasterous way this country is being run.

Seth Brundle

IMO if the preferred route of the 'eco warriors' was chosen then the road would be finished long before a route going through Tara.
As for the reference 'eco warrior' - I am certainly not an eco warrior but I do feel strongly against the intentional destruction of one of our finest national antiquities for corporate greed. This road is not being built to serve the commuters, tourists or anyone else except FF friends.

Navan Junction

Zoney wrote:

I really think the M3 will just be a monument to the disasterous way this country is being run.

Zoney, I think the project is already a monument to the disasterous way this country is being run.

But the scary thing is that it isn't just FF that are contributing to the siuation - FG aren't/weren't in favour of an alternative route either and even though Labour are, just look at Phoenix Magazine this week to see what their Meath East election candidate has been doing as a "Planning Consultant" in conjunction with his county councillor job.

I had high hopes that his background in transport would bring some sense to planning in Meath a few years ago.

Not anymore - the M3 route mess is just the top of the iceberg when it comes to planning up here, and no party is making any attempt to develop a long-term transport or land-use stategy for the county.

Xyndrix

You know it would be nice if the people who come on here to rubbish concerns about heritage and casually dismiss the whole thing as mischief-making by 'eco-warriors' would at least take some time in their responses to comment on the route itself and the issues raised over the political connections of landowners in the Tara-Skryne valley. What's your opinion on the suitability of the route? Do you honestly think that's the best way to get to Navan from Dunshaughlin? Do you really think passing that close to Tara was a smart move, likely to go through without even the slightest objection? What's your views on the interchange at Blundelstown? Are you completely comfortable with the potential for urban sprawl right up against Tara? I know you obviously have contempt for Tara itself, but think about the effect on tourism if it's ruined, you know the local economy, jobs, money? Since that's the only thing that counts clearly, lets think about it in those terms too.

Metrobest

I know you obviously have contempt for Tara itself, but think about the effect on tourism if it's ruined, you know the local economy, jobs, money?

Let's get some plain facts on the table here.

Local economy and jobs is contingent on modern infrastructure being in place and that's what the M3 is all about. It's about improving the lives of working families in Co Meath and it's about letting goods and services move faster, which is good for business.

Tourism levels also generally rise when good road infrastructure is in place, as many tourists choose to hire cars and obviously would take motorways where possible. Tourists attractions located close to motorways generally experience higher visitorship levels than those located a long way from good roads. Accessibility is key.

What is your source on visitor numbers?

I have none. However, we shall see in years to come if visitor numbers increase. Face it, Tara's hardly been a crowd-magnet for Irish and international visitors over the years so the only way is up!

The picture of the site posted upthread confirms the description of the landscape as similar to a "golf course" as the world famous guidebook Lonely Planet rather cruelly put it. I honestly feel it's very insular of Irish people to engage in all this navel gazing about what is essentially a very bland piece of landscape with some pleasingly insignificant archaeology lurking somewhere beneath, just as it does in every field in the country.

Kbannon, surely you can you imagine the laughter that would spontaneously erupt at the office of UN World Heritage Sites if the Irish government sent in such a picture as evidence that Tara deserve "world" heritage listing?

And if it's not dubious claims of national heritage, there's always a rare snail, rubble of a castle or glen of trees, which tiny minorites of citizens enjoy seizing upon to delay the crucial national infrastructure most citizens need and want.

I'm already primed to expect a bunch of treehuggers to descend on Stephen's Green when the nationally-vital rail staions are about to be built there.

Xyndrix

Metrobest, can you just answer me one thing: do you really think they chose a good route for this section of the M3? In any other country, the only reason you'd see such a marked deviation in a motorway would be to avoid such an archaeologically rich and important heritage site. In Ireland, the deviation is specifically so that you can add distance to your journey and run right into the middle of it. Do you not think there's something wrong with this?

Seth Brundle

Metrobest wrote:

Local economy and jobs is contingent on modern infrastructure being in place and that's what the M3 is all about. It's about improving the lives of working families in Co Meath and it's about letting goods and services move faster, which is good for business.

I don't think anyone is opposed to an M3. People are opposed to the current route. In fact after delays, etc. it will probably be quicker to have build the alternative route.

Metrobest wrote:

Tourism levels also generally rise when good road infrastructure is in place, as many tourists choose to hire cars and obviously would take motorways where possible. Tourists attractions located close to motorways generally experience higher visitorship levels than those located a long way from good roads. Accessibility is key.

Source?

Metrobest wrote:

I have none. However, we shall see in years to come if visitor numbers increase. Face it, Tara's hardly been a crowd-magnet for Irish and international visitors over the years so the only way is up!

I can see it now...
tourist:why is this county called the Royal county?
navan man: because it was the domain of the Celtic High Kings in ancient times
tourist: golly gee thats great. where is it now?
navan man: under that there motorway!

Metrobest wrote:

Kbannon, surely you can you imagine the laughter that would spontaneously erupt at the office of UN World Heritage Sites if the Irish government sent in such a picture as evidence that Tara deserve "world" heritage listing?

Yes I can. Just like they would have laughed had we submitted photos of Newgrange before it was restored. We would have been a laughing stock - wouldn't we?

Metrobest wrote:

And if it's not dubious claims of national heritage, there's always a rare snail, rubble of a castle or glen of trees, which tiny minorites of citizens enjoy seizing upon to delay the crucial national infrastructure most citizens need and want.

The snail, rubble or whatever, does not indicate dubious claims. If the snail was a dubious claim then why were the NRA forced to redesign the road?
In all fairness, if the planning process was open and transparent and not biased with political input then things may be different.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Local economy and jobs is contingent on modern infrastructure being in place and that's what the M3 is all about. It's about improving the lives of working families in Co Meath and it's about letting goods and services move faster, which is good for business.

Then why take a longer route?

Then why prioritise the Dunshaughlin-Navan section (little time gain) over the Navan Bypass (substantial time gain)?

Tourism levels also generally rise when good road infrastructure is in place, as many tourists choose to hire cars and obviously would take motorways where possible. Tourists attractions located close to motorways generally experience higher visitorship levels than those located a long way from good roads. Accessibility is key.

So where are the nearest motorways to the Cliffs of Moher and the Ring of Kerry?

The picture of the site posted upthread confirms the description of the landscape as similar to a "golf course" as the world famous guidebook Lonely Planet rather cruelly put it.

And Rome, Athens, Jeruselum and Mecca look "just like cities".

And if it's not dubious claims of national heritage, there's always a rare snail, rubble of a castle or glen of trees, which tiny minorites of citizens enjoy seizing upon to delay the crucial national infrastructure most citizens need and want.

SO its a matter of whats expedient over whats right? Isn't that the traditional FF way?

I'm already primed to expect a bunch of treehuggers to descend on Stephen's Green when the nationally-vital rail staions are about to be built there.

The suggstion by one source in the RPA that half of St. Stephen's Green be excavated is the wrong way to go about things. Hence, everyone else's suggestion that Metro North be carried further south.

"But why plant an oak tree - it will take 200 years to mature."

"Well, you had better plant it this morning then."

Navan Junction

Just been looking at some of the diagrams of where the 'henge' on the M3 route is - it is literally beside the site of the huge interchange at Blundlestown (Navan sth interchange beside the Tara na Rí pub)..

You can see that area clearly from the road.



I think because of the geography the choice is simple either they bull-doze it or they don't - it is already running down a slope..

Xyndrix

Navan Junction wrote:

I think because of the geography the choice is simple either they bull-doze it or they don't - it is already running down a slope..

With the decision to complete the road in two stages with stage one going right up beside the henge it appears they're leaving themselves with no option but to bulldoze it. It's clear there's only one option favoured; if they really were considering preserving it then stage one would finish with the Dunshaughlin bypass. Of course, that section should have been built years ago but this government insisted on an "all or nothing" approach to force the controversial section through. Alas, as you correctly pointed out, FG proved no better here either. You couldn't put a hair between the positions of FG and FF on this issue. Both major parties seem absolutely devoted to this particular choice of route no matter what happens.

Seth Brundle

Im just after reading in todays motors supplement in the IT that the NRA is proposing (eventually) to develop service areas abut 60km from dublin on several of the major routes - including one at Blundlestown!

Navan Junction

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times

Wed, May 16, 2007

How long does it take to open a coffee shop? Or build a petrol station? A year? More? Well considerably more than that, if the State's proposed motorway service areas are anything to go by. According to the State's e-tendering website last week, the Government, after years of planning for 12 service areas and even identifying likely locations, is now ready to provide just three rest stops with food, lavatories, Garda areas and petrol sales.

The notice also added: "All such elements of work set out above are approximate only and may be reduced or added to . . ."

The then minister for transport Seamus Brennan had set himself against the development of motorway service areas on the grounds that towns and villages which were being bypassed would lose the custom from passing trade. Things became plain silly when elaborate devices were promised at the hearing into the toll arrangements for the N4 motorway. Here the National Roads Authority (NRA) revealed that the plan was to allow motorists to pay the toll heading west, then leave the motorway and visit Enfield Co Meath, and return to the motorway without paying a second toll. But only if they completed their rest stop within a prescribed period.

Next, Minister for Transport Martin Cullen promised to consider the introduction of service areas. But the NRA decreed in 2004 that the service areas should not be located on the "mainline" carriageways, largely for safety reasons.

By 2005 Mr Cullen said the benefits of bypassing smaller towns would be lost if motorists and hauliers were forced back into them for fuel and lavatory facilities. He hoped the NRA would have a change of vision - which it duly had.If the motorway service areas were off the main carriageways, then the motorway junctions would become out-of-town shopping areas, it reasoned.

Better to have the motorway service areas on the main carriageways and put in safety measures (like every other European country), it decreed. So last June the authority said it was seeking expressions of interest from those in the private sector interested in providing the motorway service areas. It identified 12 locations along the existing motorway network but refused to reveal where they were.

In September last year the authority announced - roughly - the location of the 12 areas and said it was "close to issuing a call for property developers to build the authority's first motorway service areas".

Locations which are about 60km from Dublin included the Arklow bypass on the N11; north of Carlow on the proposed M9; the Monasterevin bypass on the M7; Kinnegad on the M6 and Blundlestown on the proposed M3.

And then on May 1st, 2007, the NRA announced "Tranche 1 service areas on the national roads network" on the e-tendering website.

The notice details how the authority "may include rest areas" and "further details will be provided to participants at the next stage of the competition".

It also includes complex wording to the effect that the contract is intended to comprise "in particular, but without limitation" construction of facilities for motorists and their passengers.However it reiterates the point that any decision will be at the authority's "absolute discretion".

It seems like it will be some time yet before we'll be fed and watered on our motorways.

© 2007 The Irish Times

Xyndrix

Yeah, I'm not surprised. The only real reason that interchange is there is to open up land for development. There's nothing to be gained from routing it through there otherwise. Going the shortest possible route through the Skane valley probably wouldn't even have needed another interchange as it wouldn't cross any major road on the way to Navan.

I did some searching on Google to learn more about the NRA board. It appears from this link that up to 6 were appointed by Noel Dempsey in 2002 as Minster for the Environment and another 2 by Cullen as Minister for Transport in 2005. Now, I'm sorry, but I've absolutely no faith in the judgements of a board that includes so many appointed by those two voting machine muppets.

On this subject, here's an interesting story that also gives some details on one such appointment.

I understand this story rumbles on. There were some recent articles in the Meath Chronicle about it but I can't access them. Unison have changed their site and the links are broken. There is a little about it here and here.

Regardless of what one makes of this, it certainly highlights the way these appointments are made with business and family relationships all too apparent.

Gonzo

so whats the latest craic with the M3, has the worked which started 2 weeks ago been stopped again?

Navan Junction

Gonzo wrote:

so whats the latest craic with the M3, has the worked which started 2 weeks ago been stopped again?

I don't think it ever started, but Martin Cullen said it would be built in 2 stages.

The first stage would be Clonee right up to that new site they discovered (1000m short of the Blundlestown interchange), and the second from that site to Kells.

I don't think any work has started, and I haven't seen any....

The only hold up at the moment is the site at Lismullin so they should at least be able to work on the Clonee to Dunshaughlin section, but that was ruled out in the past

Seth Brundle

What is the story about service/rest areas in terms of planning and zoning? Presumably the land would require a change in their zoning.
Floodgates opening?

Gonzo

What about North of Clonee just after the Rathoath Junction there seems to be 3km of roadworks there, is that part of the M3 works?

Navan Junction

No. That is spoil from the M50 upgrade, some of which will be used on the M3.

Interesting to note that the Pace park on ride site on the Dunboyne side of the N3 is starting to be used for M3 construction material as well..

D'Peoples Voice

Something weird I've noticed in recent days is the Scheme Activity on the NRA website.
Now anytime a project has started they are reasonably quick to update this page, but neither the M3 nor the latest stage of the N6(Ballinasloe) have been put up on the website yet.
http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SchemeActivity-2007/#d.en.1230

So you're thinking, well they probably didn't get around to updating the webpage. BUT, the part of the N6 completed TODAY (N6 Kinnegad/Athlone Phase 1 (Kinnegad/Kilbeggan)) has been updated on the Road Activity list, so clearly someone is ACTIVELY updated the website.
Could it be possible that the M3 really HASN'T begun but that the minister advertised it has before the election for votes. I don't know but it is weird!

Xyndrix

kbannon wrote:

What is the story about service/rest areas in terms of planning and zoning? Presumably the land would require a change in their zoning.
Floodgates opening?

I'm not an expert on the planning and zoning system but from what I can gather there's nothing to stop you applying for planning permission for anything really regardless of the zoning. It's just that in most cases if it's not zoned for that particular use then planning is very unlikely to be granted. If planning is granted then that may automatically change the zoning of the land. It seems logical that it would, but again I'm not sure of the precise details surrounding this.

In any case, the idea seems to be that if you can get land 'upgraded' from plain old agricultural to something industrial or commercial then it's that much easier to get residential etc. One thing's for sure, the landowners will use every trick to get their money's worth out of this. There will be constant pressure to develop the area once the interchange is there. Like I pointed out in a previous post, there already was a planning application for a recycling centre and that's before construction of the interchange has even begun. Maybe this urban sprawl nightmare right up against Tara won't come to pass, but it's very hard to be optimistic when you look at the way planning is carried out in this country.

The planning department in Meath is in a mess anyway with an incredibly high turnover in staff and some other things I've heard don't inspire confidence in what's going on there either. If anyone really cares about preserving Tara then they really don't want an interchange right up beside it. It's bad enough the road needlessly ripping through the valley and the impact of the interchange itself, but the potential for additional development is very real and it will be a constant struggle to try and stop it.

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Could it be possible that the M3 really HASN'T begun but that the minister advertised it has before the election for votes. I don't know but it is weird!

Sounds about right. They wanted a sod-turning ceremony so that they could then claim they've 'delivered it'. As if that wasn't bad enough, there was a FF ad in the Meath Chronicle last week with Dempsey and his running mate not only claiming credit for the stalled M3 but posing with Bertie under a bridge (love to know what bridge that was, Dunsany perhaps? with the sewer manhole under it ) to claim they'd deliver the rail link. What a joke! Of course, it doesn't matter as Dempsey is widely believed to top the poll again and Brady his fellow deputy will most likely be returned again as well. Meath people just love FF, no matter how many things they cock up.

Navan Junction

Xyndrix wrote:

posing with Bertie under a bridge (love to know what bridge that was

Dunboyne station bridge - Seán Boylan's land.


Some very disturbing aerial photos of the M3 route near Tara at this link - scroll up the page about six or seven pictures

It looks really terrible - the NRA had said that they had chosen the route going around historic remains..

But the aerial photos look like the route was picked to go straight through site after site, which I'm sure was not the intention, but it looks disasterous..

I am genuinely gob-smacked - I can't believe that all of the sites in those photos are so close to each other..