M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

murphaph

thejollyrodger wrote:

I think the motorway should be eventually extended all the way to the border for economic development. People in Derry and Donegal have a better chance of working there with a if there is high quality road going to the border.

I disagree. Firstly, Derry is in a different jurisdiction and I would have a BIG problem with my taxes being spent to allow Derry folk to work close to home (note that the DRD doesn't even want to extend the motorway from Belfast to Derry!!). As for Donegal, what is the population density there? it must surely be one of the lowest in the state and why have we got this fixation of allowing everyone to work close to their bithplace? Cities work! Civilisation has been around for thousands of years and it works! Look at ANY other country in Europe/US and you'll find that peeps have to move to bigger towns and cities to efficiently exchange their labour for goods and services (cash). People living and working together in cities has been a natural progression of humankind for millenia, now many peple in Ireland seem to think it's a bad thing. My $0.02, let he flames begin....

Didn't Cavan town get a high quality bypass a few years ago? I distinctly remember driving on it on my way to Enniskillen, no?

Crossley

thejollyrodger wrote:

I think P11 or someone should be demanding a bridge be built to accomadate 2 railway lines. The cost of the bridge wouldnt be a lot and would save a huge fiacso in the future.

Bit difficult at the moment when no route for the railway has been decided on (or even considered).

we do build our roads to a high standard (i.e what Is built as opposed to whats not built)

You are joking I hope. What about the lack of motorway median barriers? Trees growing on the outside of barriers where they do exist (central median of M50 nr N3 jct), trees planted as roadside landscaping right up to the edge of the shoulder (M50 nr N81 jct), poor road markings, poor surfaces, etc.

thejollyrodger

well, the motorways in belgium and Germany are ugly messy things. One straight line in germany with little landscaping (generalisation). Lots of overgrown stuff in the median in Belgium. The M1 is a decent job, but ok our roads arent that great.

IE or P11 should have a provisional route that can be put to government for the Navan rail line, even if it doesnt go ahead this decade. It cant be that hard to decide on a rail line (IMO).

The future M3 is going to service a lot of people in a lot of counties. Business can operate cheaper even with tolls, road deaths will decline. Towns like cavan and navan can prosper instead of everyone living in dublin

murphaph

thejollyrodger wrote:

well, the motorways in belgium and Germany are ugly messy things.

Yeah, the Autobahn is a real can of p*ss. :rolleyes:

thejollyrodger

no, not the autobahn, its a different class of road. I was on about the motorways, landscaping and straightlines

utopian

thejollyrodger wrote:

IE or P11 should have a provisional route that can be put to government for the Navan rail line, even if it doesnt go ahead this decade. It cant be that hard to decide on a rail line (IMO).

They know that any rail line will need to be built using a PPP, so no rail line will ever be built. All this talk of rail lines is strictly for the election.

thejollyrodger wrote:

The future M3 is going to service a lot of people in a lot of counties. Business can operate cheaper even with tolls, road deaths will decline. Towns like cavan and navan can prosper instead of everyone living in dublin

I think the problem is everyone working in Dublin and living outside it, rather than everyone living in Dublin. I wish I could share your optimism about the effect of the road of Meath, but I think the traffic will keep flowing in the same direction as currently.

BrianD

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Yeah how often do you travel on the N3? Not very often by the look of things... :rolleyes:

I lived off it for 25 years and use it once a week.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote:

I wonder was it true, what a guy in the Questions and Answers audience was saying about the M3 route slicing through the rail-line. If that's the case then, please, build a bridge and avoid future mayhem.

Building a bridge over the road is not a major problem at a later stage.

Metrobest wrote:

I have less sympathy for those who moan about tolls. Anyone unhappy with the toll can use the existing N3. My guess is most people will pay to avail of the quality road. Pay up, or shut up, is my feeling..

I have no problems with tolls per se but why this road? It's like shooting fish in a barrell. Lets build a road that will generate loads of commuter travel and then franchise out the tolling to make someone some easy money.

Metrobest wrote:

Nothing - and nobody - should now stand in the way of Meath people getting the road they deserve. It's quite clear the vast majority of people are delighted with the chosen route. Over 90 percent has given it the nod. Notice how the shrillest voices in the "Save" Tara group, principally Mr Safira [plus Mr McGrath- who has a strange opinion on the Third Reich] speak with Dublin 4 accents. Oh yeah, and I forgot about Stuart Townsend, who lives in .. Hollywood.

You are right. This monument to bad planning will go ahead no matter what any sane person says. There is no public demand for it and the electorate have indicated that they know very very little about the project. There is no silent majority. They.ve been sold a pup of a project on the pretence that it will improve their lives. Clearly this is not the case. It's the same bad planning and development that has forced them to live in meath in the first place and commute in Dublin.

Metro you have also got to realise that while the enviromentalist oppose it on the Tara issue many people oppose it because it is plain bad piece of infrastructure. We are told that this is a "national project" so anybody anywhere is entitled to comment - its apparently not just being built for the people in Meath!

crossley wrote:

Can anyone explain to me the purpose of the Blundelstown Interchange which is to be situated in the Tara-Skyrne valley? It's not to access Navan as the Kilcarn junction further on does that. If the Blundelstwon Interchange didn't exist I'd be far less concerned about eventual commercial development in the area.

It's close to Garlow Cross - one assumes that it is for people who want to visit Tara. Others say that the new outer ring (or M51 as its called in another post) will intersect the M3 here. Retail and suburban housing at this point is only a few years away.

thejollyroger wrote:

I think the motorway should be eventually extended all the way to the border for economic development. People in Derry and Donegal have a better chance of working there with a if there is high quality road going to the border.

Doubt if there are any plans to. The road is allow urban development close to Dublin. The N3 officially terminates in Ballyshannon of all places. This is a town that truely needs a motorway to Dublin.

thejollyroger wrote:

The future M3 is going to service a lot of people in a lot of counties. Business can operate cheaper even with tolls, road deaths will decline. Towns like cavan and navan can prosper instead of everyone living in dublin

Highly unlikely especially for Cavan and Navan. The road will open these towns up for more dormitory homes justified by the existence of the M3. Truck drivers avoid tolls so they won't use these roads so it makes no odds to business. it will be a safer road in the long run. A more imaginative road system for Meath would have opened up the county for development within but this was never thought of or even considered. Dublin can only really expand in two ways - north and west hence the roads that are of "national importance".

mackerski

thejollyrodger wrote:

no, not the autobahn, its a different class of road. I was on about the motorways, landscaping and straightlines

?????

Explain. "Autobahn" is the German word for "Motorway", yet you seem to want to distinguish the two, as though they were different things and Germany had examples of each.

Believe me, German Autobahnen are of widely variable quality, and many would be considered substandard in Ireland.

Dermot

Andrew Duffy

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant:

http://www.meath.ie/Roads/M3_EIS/volume1/description_of_scheme.htm

... rejoining the existing N3 alignment in the townland of Pace and running parallel to the disused Clonsilla-Navan Railway through the townland of Piercetown ... Pace Grade-Separated Junction ... is also designed to provide the necessary clearance over the existing disused Clonsilla-Navan Railway line to accommodate any future plans to reopen the railway along its present alignment at this location. ...

For the record, I think the intercity roads should be completed and the public transport in Dublin and the other cities sorted out before schemes like the M3 are considered.

thejollyrodger

The Autobahn with the no speed limit and 4 or 5 lanes each way. Like Hamburg to Berlin. But they also have ordinary motorways with 2 lanes either side.

Good to see they have taken the rail line into consideration. I'm personally in favour of this new road.

Crossley

Andrew Duffy wrote:

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant:

But if (and it's a big if) the railway is to go all the way to Navan at some stage it will have to cross the motorway at a further two points at least (i.e. Pace P&R will be on the eastern side of the road so it will need to cross back to the western side and also it will need to cross the Navan By-Pass element of the motorway as well. I assume it's these crossings that people are highlighting.

mackerski

thejollyrodger wrote:

The Autobahn with the no speed limit and 4 or 5 lanes each way. Like Hamburg to Berlin. But they also have ordinary motorways with 2 lanes either side.

What are you on about? It's an Autobahn the minute you pass sign 330 as shown here:

http://verkehrsportal.de/stvo/stvo_42.php

If it has 2 lanes, it's an Autobahn with 2 lanes. If it has a speed limit sign, it's an Autobahn with a non-default speed limit. There's no special classification for the nice wide derestricted ones.

Dermot

BrianD

Crossley wrote:

But if (and it's a big if) the railway is to go all the way to Navan at some stage it will have to cross the motorway at a further two points at least (i.e. Pace P&R will be on the eastern side of the road so it will need to cross back to the western side and also it will need to cross the Navan By-Pass element of the motorway as well. I assume it's these crossings that people are highlighting.

The railway is only conjecture at the moment and it is unlikely to follow the original route. I am not aware of any route that has been specifically highlighted. Nearly all of the land of the original route has been sold to adjacent farms at £40 a pop. Some of the former stations are private residences.

It's no big deal if there are no bridges for a rail line included in the M3. Rail bridges can be built over the road in due course. The new outer relief road that was built over the N7 at Baldonnell didn't cause a whole lot of inconvenience during construction.

The important thing is to identify a route and make sure it is reserved.

Victor

Provision is made for an overbridge over the existing railway alignment. Hovever this alignment no longer matches the development pattern along it's corridor.

Metrobest wrote:

principally Mr Safira ..... speak with Dublin 4 accents.

Lives near Tara and based on the two times I've spoken to him isn't exactly D4.

thejollyrodger wrote:

People in Derry

Use the A5 to get to the N2 (M2)/M1.

A Rail corridor could eventually be extended to Cavan as well

Cavan already has a railway and they don't use it.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Cavan already has a railway and they don't use it.

I presume you mean the Kingscourt branch. Not a hope in hell it'll see passenger traffic anytime soon either, sure it runs through Navan to Drogheda via the Tara mines line (in very bad nick). The Kingscourt branch closed to traffic when cement manufacturers found a clay substitute to Gypsum which is cheaper. Gypsum used to be transported from Kingscourt but the line was in a bad way at closure a few years back.

Crossley

BrianD wrote:

I am not aware of any route that has been specifically highlighted.

There's a diversion from the original route shown in the Meath County Development Plan which leaves the old line roughly where Pace P&R is to be and loops around the western side of Ashbourne, through Ratoath and Dunshaughlin to rejoin its original path. This would take in the main urban areas where development is likely to be most intensive.

BrianD

Dunboyne-Ashbourne-Ratoath-Dunshaughlin-Navan?

That can't be right? Bit of an odd routing!

thejollyrodger

Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

People in Derry
Use the A5 to get to the N2 (M2)/M1.

M2 ? where is that ?

the m1 to the border is a good road at the moment, but not all traffic northeast bound can travel on it indefintely. Another motorway to the northweast is needed

BrianD

The N2 is being upgraded to the same standard as the M3 but it is not being designated a M-way. Possibly because people would look at a map see three parallel blue lines in Meath and go "What the hell!!"

Crossley

BrianD wrote:

Dunboyne-Ashbourne-Ratoath-Dunshaughlin-Navan?

That can't be right? Bit of an odd routing!

Have a look at the route map at http://www.meath.ie/devplan/rural_detail_maps/dunsh_infra.html

It's not as odd as it sounds. By rough calculation the distance from Pace to the point where the deviation rejoins the original alignment is 10mls as against 6mls by the original route. So for a 4ml deviation you pull in three large and rapidly expanding towns. Stick to the original line and it's greenfield all the way to Navan.

thejollyrodger

The N2 is being upgraded to the same standard as the M3 but it is not being designated a M-way. Possibly because people would look at a map see three parallel blue lines in Meath and go "What the hell!!"

Wow, a third 3 motorway/dual carriageway even ! That part of Ireland must have the highest concnetration of motorway in all of ireland !

BrianD

Had a look...the route must have drawn on April foolfs day or somebody with a great sense of humour!! That is the most ridiculous routing I have ever seen ... perhaps they go between every village in co. meath with the rail line!

Would be wiser to route east of Dunshaughlin so a park and ride could cater for Dunshaughlin, Rathoath and Ashbourne.

murphaph

wtf is option C all about? Is that for the sunday shoppers to the Blanch centre???

I still think the original alignment is most likely to be chosen for speed of railway order approval as well as construction. If I lived in Ashbourne however I could see how it might seem like a missed opportunity to me.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

I presume you mean the Kingscourt branch. Not a hope in hell it'll see passenger traffic anytime soon either, sure it runs through Navan to Drogheda via the Tara mines line (in very bad nick). The Kingscourt branch closed to traffic when cement manufacturers found a clay substitute to Gypsum which is cheaper. Gypsum used to be transported from Kingscourt but the line was in a bad way at closure a few years back.

Gypsum is used for plasterboard and plaster products. Cement is, well, different.

murphaph wrote:

wtf is option C all about? Is that for the sunday shoppers to the Blanch centre???

Not just that, it also serves the industrial estates in Ballycoolen and makes the centre of Blanchardstown more 'holistic'.

murphaph wrote:

I still think the original alignment is most likely to be chosen for speed of railway order approval as well as construction. If I lived in Ashbourne however I could see how it might seem like a missed opportunity to me.

But who would it serve? Dunboyne and Navan and nothing in between? While "loose" the suggested routes have some merits. Another possibility would be Navan-Dunshaughlin-Rathoath-Ashbourne-Finglas-Cabra.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Gypsum is used for plasterboard and plaster products. Cement is, well, different.

Quoting from Gypsum Industries Ireland (link):
"Raw gypsum is mined from our quarry at Knocknacran. The rock is loaded by tracked mass excavators and transported to a crushing plant. After passing through primary and secondary roll type crushers, where the material is reduced in size, the rock is blended in a homogeniser, where its quality is controlled using data obtained from laboratory analyses of automatically controlled samples. The crushed rock is conveyed from the homogeniser and then transported by road to the plaster and plasterboard factory near Kingscourt. Cement rock is supplied to the cement manufacturing companies in Ireland where it is used as an additive in the manufacture of cement." The website is out of date because they no longer supply Irish Cement with 'cement rock'. Hence Kingscourt no onger needed a rail connection.

Victor wrote:

Not just that, it also serves the industrial estates in Ballycoolen and makes the centre of Blanchardstown more 'holistic'.

But it would only connect to the national rail network at the Navan end (that's how it looks on the map anyway and if it's supposed to connect at Porterstown then good luck to the engineers!

Victor wrote:

But who would it serve? Dunboyne and Navan and nothing in between? While "loose" the suggested routes have some merits. Another possibility would be Navan-Dunshaughlin-Rathoath-Ashbourne-Finglas-Cabra.

Dunboyne and Navan directly, many hundreds of P&R users from Kells, Trim, Athboy etc. and Dunshaughlin and even Ratoath can be served with a shuttle bus. This would be very similar to Naas & Sallins station on the Kildare line. I believe Ashbourne & Ratoath can be better served with a DART extension from Liffey Junction via Finglas. Failing that a simple spur could be built at Pace which could serve Ashbourne & Ratoath without snaking all over the countryside. If you went Navan-Dunshaughlin-Rathoath-Ashbourne-Finglas-Cabra then you lose Dunboyne but more importantly the SDZ at Hansfield and close by Ongar village. Unless you've seen these places you'd never believe the scale of developments up there.

D'Peoples Voice

Victor wrote:

No, if you look at the maps, the route they have chosen is longer, further away from Trim *and* causes more archaelogical disturbance.

How about we build a motorway between the Pyramids, but not actually on the Pyramids?

Victor,
I have finally come around to your way of thinking. If you asked me this time last year, should the change the route of the M3, I'd say no way, bearing in mind all the work that has been done on the EIS/CPO, and how long it would take to re-do all this work if they changed the route.
But the more I look at a map of Ireland as opposed to just Meath, I believe for the benefit of the country/midlands, the route of the M3 should now be changed. Before I say what I'm going to say, I take on board someone's point about the Ardee turnoff on the M1 is not being used for people wishing to go to Monaghan, and how Slane is still crowded each day, and therefore would a similar solution work for Navan!(My answer to this is that over the next few years as Navan continues to grow, they may extend the proposed train from Clonee to Navan.)
Anyway, looking at a map of Ireland, between the M50 and the N51, the N2 is too close to the N3, when you consider the gap between the N3 and the N4. (And, no i'm not suggesting build a road because it looks pretty on a map, I'll explain my line of thinking)

What they should do is build the M3 OVER the "R154" from a place called "Black Bull" on the current N3, bypassing Batterstown,Trim and Athboy(to the right). Then continue the M3 over the "R164" bypassing Kells(to the left) and it will bring you back onto the N3.
If you look at this map, you will see Meath county council are already proposing updating the R154, in which case a EIS/CPO may already have been done, albeit not assuming a motorway was being proposed!
http://www.meath.ie/devplan/rural_detail_maps/dunsh_infra.html
Obviously there could be a problem because of people living on the R154 & R164, but thats why we have CPO.
THEN build the outer Dublin bypass/M50, OVER the N51, except where the current N51 goes from Navan to Athboy, redirect it to Navan to Trim(M3) and onto to Kinegad(M4-M6), Kildare(M7-M8), Kilcullen(M9) and finally Wicklow town(M11).
Then what you will have is good transport for people commutin from Trim to Navan, and because the new N51 will be a high class road (relatively speaking), people from Navan could tolerate making the short journey to Trim to get on the M3 or to Slane to get on the N2.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=trim+%2B+ireland&ll=53.629982,-6.806030&spn=0.776741,1.925629&hl=en
(Looking at the map, it would look like a quicker/more direct route for people driving to Cavan from Dublin)
Finally, it would be closer to the current disused railway line, which suggests that future park and ride facilites would be available if that line was ever re-introduced (as part of a Dublin - Cavan - Derry/Letterkenny route) .
But that's just an opinion, and I'm sure the experts in the NRA would have looked at this route, and not chose it for a very good reason, thats why they design roads and I don't.

gerrydublin

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

THEN build the outer Dublin bypass/M50, OVER the N51, except where the current N51 goes from Navan to Athboy, redirect it to Navan to Trim(M3) and onto to Kinegad(M4-M6), Kildare(M7-M8), Kilcullen(M9) and finally Wicklow town(M11).

you may have a point here!
Just checkecd
http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1898&CatID=48&StartDate=01+January+2003&m=
Some of the towns that are to be the recipients of decentralised Departments are Drogheda, Navan, Trim, the Curragh/Newbridge and finally Arklow.
This N51 may do more for Decentralisation that anything else this Government ever do!
It would seem strange though the Irish Government decentralising people to Trim but then purposely avoiding routing the M3 near Trim especially when it would be easier to use the R164/R154 or whichever road you were proposing!

Methinks we are not being told the whole truth!
According to that map, Meath CoCo are to get tax payers money to do up the R154 ANYWAY, seems like a case of wasted resources that could be badly diverted to Kilmeaden in Waterford!

BrianD

Given the discussion about the Dublin-Navan rail line and that it is unlikely to built within the next decade it would be certainly be a good idea to establish the routing and fence it off (not literally). This means the unecessary M3 can bridge it and rational and sustainable development can be planned.

D'Peoples Voice

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0301/tara.html
Court rejects M3 injunction bid

01 March 2006 16:04

The High Court has rejected an application for an injunction which would effectively have stopped work on the M3 motorway.

The injunction would have possibly led to its re-routing from the Tara/Skryne Valley in Co Meath.

In his reserved judgement today, Mr Justice Thomas Smith rejected the application by campaigner Mr Vincent Salavia on all grounds.

The judge ruled that Mr Salavia had delayed in taking his legal action and that he did not have the legal standing to take the action in the first place.

The judge also ruled that the Minister for the Environment, Dick Roche, did not err in granting licences to allow archaeological works to proceed on 36 sites in the valley.