M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

Maskhadov

Great news. Just a shame it cost us all €150million for the delay

NavanJunction1

Maskhadov wrote:

shame it cost us all €150million for the delay

Don't think there was a delay, but I may be wrong. The archaeological digs didn't stop at any stage.. The reports in the local papers were that work was continueing apace since whenever it was last summer when the digs started..

Maskhadov

The first sod still wont be turned for another year according to the print media

NavanJunction1

It will be interesting to see what comes out about it in the next while.

There is no excuse for not having work started on the first phase to Dunshaughlin as the Blackbull Junction (Trim Rathoath Fairyhouse N3 junction) is a disaster, and Dunshaughlin a mess.

murphaph

Was the draft toll scheme published yet? Anybody got any ideas on how much the two tolls will be?

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

Was the draft toll scheme published yet? Anybody got any ideas on how much the two tolls will be?

No. But NRA have a price of €1.06 for 2001 prices on their site. 2 tolls at that rate. Tolls won't be split.

Irish Indo said E1.25 per toll today but I don't know where that came from..

Maskhadov

the indo has turned into a rag and i wouldnt belive any of what they print

murphaph

I can't see each toll being as expensive as the M4 but combined they probably will be. If they try to charge €2.50 or anything like it for Kells-Navan, people will just sue the old road, Navan having a relief road at least. Dunshaughlin is another matter. In France these toll roads are free between the north and south exits around towns they bypass and tolled in between. Not here though :rolleyes:

Maskhadov

The tolls are a major case for a commuter rail service for Navan to Dublin.

NavanJunction1

Well, consider how things stand in terms of the prospect for developing jobs in Meath.

Compare Navan with Naas. If you are a business looking to set up in A) Kildare or Meath would you go to to Navan with 2 tolls and no rail link, or Naas with no tolls and a rail link.

Navan needs rail more than ever now

D'Peoples Voice

thejollyrodger wrote:

Wow, a third 3 motorway/dual carriageway even ! That part of Ireland must have the highest concnetration of motorway in all of ireland !

Well Jollyrodger, they need a third dual carriageway/motorway, after all just because all the traffic from Kilkenny,Waterford, Cork, Kerry and Limerick can fit on the one approach to Dublin (N7) does not mean that Slane, Navan and Belfast don't need their OWN dual carriageway/motorway on their approach to Dublin.:D

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I live in East Cavan and I use both the M1 and N3 to get to Dublin. So people who do not travel this route, please stop arguing against it. It is needed for the people of Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh and alot of Donegal.

Metrobest wrote:

As much as for Meath, the M3 will benefit all the Northern counties.

thejollyrodger wrote:

I think the motorway should be eventually extended all the way to the border for economic development. People in Derry and Donegal have a better chance of working there with a if there is high quality road going to the border.

BrianD wrote:

A dual carriage way accross from say Navan to the M2 and M1 would achieve exactly the same results and tap into two under utilised roads. This would ease pressure on the existing N3 south of Navan while more than serving Navan residents and those north of it. It also opens up a corridor from east-west accross the county.

The people of Cavan, Fermanagh and a lot of Donegal will want to avoid Clonee & Blanch and will therefore travel on the M1 or N2, not on this new M3 as soon as the outer ring road(N51) between Drogheda and Navan, via Slane is completed. Until then, they will use the backroads between Kells and Slane until then, rather than pay the toll at Pace.

Hence what we should be looking at is building a motorway from Dublin to Letterkenny; feeding Cavan, Fermanagh, Monaghan, Tyrone, Armagh, Donegal & Derry, in a similar fashion to the way the N7 braches out to Kilkenny,Waterford, Cork, Kerry and Limerick. Using a starting point of Dublin city, we should ask ourselves, is it better to direct all the traffic from the north west through the Blanch/Cabra axis or Ashbourne/Finglas axis. Then build the road. However it looks like the developers are just saying, there was a road so it's needs to up upgraded. Have they really assessed the numbers! Thankfully it's a PPP and the Gov are not footing the whole bill. But the people of the North West deserve better.

murphaph wrote:

Build the Interconnector (as well as completing Spencer Dock Station) and at the same time reopen Navan line completely including a multi-storey P&R at Pace and anywhere else that's deemed appropriate

thankfully this is being done in T21.

I've nothing against road transport if it carries enough freight transport to justify it, but if it's carrying commuters who will simply dump their cars in a car park between the hours of 10am and 4pm, then the road is underutilised for most of the day. What they need is a 'reliable' & 'cheap' train service as you say!
I'm hoping any P+R at Pace will remove MOST of the traffic coming from the North West and not inconvenience the Blanch-Cabra axis too much, but I don't think this is realistic.

NavanJunction1

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

if it's carrying commuters who will simply dump their cars in a car park between the hours of 10am and 4pm, then the road is underutilised for most of the day. What they need is a 'reliable' & 'cheap' train service as you say!

My personal worry about the M3 coming on stream without the railway is that nobody will be able to travel to Dublin for hours in the morning because Blanch will be a no go zone even more badly gridlocked than at present.

As it is, for half the year it can take 2.5hrs to get from Navan to Dublin CC. Blanchardstown is a nightmare as it is, without the increased traffic volumes which will accompany the growth envisaged for Meath in the coming years.

The entire Navan line will take 8,000 cars per hour (peak hourss) or so off the N3 which in my mind means that I could zoom to Dublin in 50 mins (as I can do during the builders holidays during the summer) more often if I decided to keep driving to work.

As a daily commuter to Dublin from Navan I think the M3 without the railway is transport suicide for county Meath.

D'Peoples Voice

http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/2006/july/1707063.asp

Opponents of M3 may face prosecution

A group of protesters against the M3 motorway have been told by the Garda that they could be prosecuted for setting up a 'solidarity camp' on the Hill of Tara.

Acting at the request of the Office of Public Works (OPW), Garda officers visited the site on Saturday, July 15th, warning campers that they could be charged under the 2002 Housing Act. This criminalises trespass on public or private land.
Tara Watch is campaigning against plans to route the M3 past the Hill of Tara. The group argues that people had camped there for decades and none had been prosecuted.

Those taking part in the protest said it was “a people’s solidarity camp”, independent of any campaign or political party. According to Tara Watch, the campers have stated that they intend remaining on the hill to “complete a religious ceremony” which would finish on August 2nd.

A spokesman for the OPW said it normally did not allow people to camp on heritage sites, but made an exception for those who wished to camp on the Hill of Tara for the solstice on June 21st. They stated that they notified the gardai when the campers would not move.

We can kiss the 2008 completion date goodbye!

mackerski

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

We can kiss the 2008 completion date goodbye!

Not clear - if they stay on the Hill of Tara they should be well clear of any road works.

Dermot

spacetweek

mackerski wrote:

Not clear - if they stay on the Hill of Tara they should be well clear of any road works.

Dermot

True - the new road will be some distance from the hill.

Navan Junction

I'm not sure if the state has purchased the land yet.. The route could still be in private ownership..

westtip

Metrobest wrote:

The "Sava Tara" campaigners are getting desperate. So are the Irish Times journalists who seem determined to slant their coverage. We never hear from the silent majority, the people who want this motorway to be built ASAP. I hate the way the Save Tara green goblins are hijacking this issue, pretending they have public support. The commuters of Navan, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne need this motorway.

Something has got to be done. The senseless "Save" Tara campaign is causing immense suffering - to taxpayers, to commuters.. and to newspaper readers bored out of their trees by this ridiculous protest. I feel that if the "Save Tara" group delays this project any further, they should have to pay the costs. That would soon silence them!

Remember the hippies who hugged the trees in the Glen O'The Downs? Who now would seriously contend that that road was a mistake? Maybe the Irish Times should take a look at its own Trees supplement, published Tuesday, in which options for tree-lined roads were discussed. It was stated that there are now MORE trees on the Glen than ever!

What this means for Tara is this. Screened by trees, miles away from the Hill, twice as far away as the existing N3, the new M3 will be completely unobtrusive.

The Save Tara campaign is being run by exactly the same kind of visionary people who tried to stop Dublin City Council pouring concrete over the finest Viking heritage site many moons ago to build the concrete bunker which now stands on Wood Quay - this could have now been one of the greatest tourist attractions in Ireland (The Yorvik centre in York is one of the UK's leading tourist attractions) - instead the city councillors are parking their fat backsides on it monday to friday. Thank god there are people prepared to sit up and say Tara shoudl be protected and is important. The merits or need for the M3 have been much debated on these boards in several different threads, and what is said will probably have absolutely no effect on the final outcome.

The M3 built to Motorway standard is IMO, completely unnecessary, because of duplicity of the N2/n3 both upgraded to dual carriageway/motorway within spitting distance of each other - parish pump politics I am afraid, It is a joke I know transport planners and transport economists who just scratch their heads and say why? Navan will get its motorway, the flabby white boys will puff out their chests saying look what I did for you, and that is what it is all about.

Many people have argued against the M3 on the rationale that three motorways running north south through meath is overkill, and it is, Anyone with an ounce of intelligence and a map of Ireland on the office wall could see that traffic should be funnelled towards one radial route to the M50,notwithstanding all issues re Tara. With regard to the M3 being an axial route to the north west (cavan, Leitrim, Fermananagh, Derry and Donegal) no one in the NRA or other bodies has ever suggested as an alternative the trans-border route option of a good quality dual carriageway from Sligo to Dundalk via Enniskillen and Monaghan as an alternative route to Dublin from the North and North West. It would be no hardship for a driver from Donegal to swing East on such a route at Enniskillen and join the M1 at Dundalk, the additional mileage would be negligible based on travelling at motorway speeds - it would certainly be a better route to the airport. Such a road would also contribute greatly to the economies of the border counties on both sides of the border. A good fast road link between Monaghan and Dundalk (ie upgrade N2 and n54) would also alleviate some of the problems in that region with dispersed medical (hospital services), if this route were dualled the travel time from Monaghan to Dundalk would be about 25 minutes (it is about 25 miles - an ambulance at full pelt would do it it in between 15 to 20 minutes. Of course such a piece of infrastructure would require a great deal of cross border planning and co-operation - which in spite of the stuttering Agreement is something I am sure could be achieved. There are billions waiting to be spent on infrastructre projects in the North if the politicians could sort themselves out.

The greatest pity about the way our new motorway system has been planned is that politicians were ever allowed to become involved. Once that happened the flabby white boys justwanted to be able to puff out their chests and say look at the new motorway I bought to town. The whole thing has been based on copying the old radial routes instead of planning the system in a holistic manner.

D'Peoples Voice

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0430/m3.html

First sod turned for M3 motorway
Monday, 30 April 2007 14:37
The Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, has turned the first sod for the M3 motorway just outside Navan, Co Meath.

Organisers kept the event low key to avoid opponents to the project turning up.

It is expected construction work on the motorway, which is estimated will cost between €800m and €1bn, will begin in a matter of days.

AdvertisementDescribed as the largest project of its kind ever undertaken in the country, the scheme will see 49km of motorway being built from Clonee in Co Meath to just north of Kells in addition to several access roads.

It is expected the motorway will be open by July 2010.

The motorway will bypass the towns of Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells.

However, it remains hugely controversial as it runs through the Tara/Skryne valley and objectors say it will damage the archaeological landscape of the Hill of Tara.

At the ceremony Minister Cullen denied the project is a gamble, as a case is being taken to the Supreme Court by An Taisce which could halt the scheme.

The minister said the people of the area had waited long enough for the motorway.

Today's move has been criticised by those opposed to the project.

spacetweek

Unbelievable... almost too good to be true. It's taken so, so long. They've announced the "imminent" start of construction of this road every single year for about the last 5 years.

FTR this road was originally supposed to be finished last year, according to the first NDP.

The residents of Meath need to keep pushing for the Navan rail line - with this new road link and the rail, transport in Meath could finally enter the 21st century.

Victor

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=9093&lang=ENG&loc=2126

Cullen turns sod on 59 kms M3 national road project
30 April 2007

Transport Minister, Martin Cullen, TD today (Monday, 30 April 2007) turned the sod on the M3 Clonee to North of Kells national road project. The project is being funded through private finance, the Government's investment programme Transport 21 and the National Development Plan. With a route length, including connecting roads of 59 kms, it is the longest stretch of new road to go to construction in the State to date. The main contractors working on the project are the Eurolink Consortium (CINTRA, SA and SIAC) and the main engineers are M3 MeathConsult. The project is due to be completed in summer 2010.

The scheme will bypass the towns of Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin, Navan, Tara, Kells and other smaller communities in the area.

Speaking at the sod turning ceremony, Minister Cullen said: "Once completed, this road project will aid the competitiveness and efficiencies in the economy of county Meath and other counties served by the N3/M3 route, particularly through reduced transport costs and improved journey time predictability. The quality of life of the thousands of people who use the route and those living along or near it, will be enhanced through an improvement in road safety, air quality, and journey times. Significant reductions in travel times will be delivered along the route for commuters and business people travelling into and out of Dublin."

This major investment in the physical infrastructure of the region forms part of a series of other road projects also under the Government's investment programme Transport 21, some of which are already underway or in planning, including the Virginia Bypass, the Belturbet Bypass and Ballyshannon to the border. When completed, these projects will link together to provide a high quality route between Dublin and the Border as well as south Donegal and Leitrim.

Mr Peter Malone, Chairman of the NRA said: "Today is hugely significant in road building terms with work starting on the longest road contract to go to construction in the history of the State. At almost 60 kms in length, the M3 Clonee to Kells scheme is indicative of the magnitude of the current national roads programme and the significant contribution the Public Private Partnership element is delivering. This project will open up the Northwest by improving access from Dublin to Donegal resulting in greater commercial and tourism opportunities. The pace at which the roads programme is being rolled out is set to continue with construction to start in three days time on the second largest road project to date the N6, Galway to Ballinasloe."

Navan Junction

from ireland.com
Charlie Taylor

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0501/breaking78.htm

Tue, May 01, 2007

Work on construction of the controversial M3 motorway, which is to pass through the Tara/Skreen valley has been stopped after the discovery of a new national monument.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Dick Roche confirmed this evening that he had received a report that archaeologists working on the route have found evidence of a monument at Lismullin, Co Meath.

The minister is now believed to be consulting with the director of the National Museum after the National Monuments Service inspected the site.

The prehistoric "henge" site is a circular enclosure which is estimated to be about the size of three football fields.

A statement from the Department of the Environment which this evening said: "No works which would interfere with the monument may be carried out, except works urgently required to secure its preservation."

Currently, the archaeological team is authorised to continue to clean back the surface of the area, to complete a plan of the features and to check for associated features outside the enclosure.

A small number of stakeholes are also to be excavated to try to recover sufficient material for radiocarbon dating.

The Campagin to Save Tara said it was "delighted" that the discovery of the monument meant that construction of the M3 would temporarily cease.

Spokesman Michael Canney said: 'Everybody knew that this route was destined to destroy the landscape of Tara if it went ahead. The advice of national and international experts was ignored.

"This route was chosen because it was favoured by local politicians and businessmen. That this monument has been discovered is more by accident than by design and many other sites that were of significance have been hastily and inadequately surveyed.

"We now call on the Government and the NRA to abandon this route, admit they have made a serious mistake and act properly and positively to protect our heritage."

The pro-Tara group TaraWatch, which originally reported the site to the Keeper of Antiquities at the National Museum of Ireland yesterday, said that Mr Roche should reroute the M3 in order to avoid the monument.

"This site is a show-stopper and is without doubt a national monument of world significance according to our experts. It would be a sin to demolish it," said TaraWatch spokesperson Vincent Salafia.

© 2007 ireland.com

rc28

A "massive" national monument has been discovered beside the hill of Tara which has halted all work on the M3. To be fair to the protestors they did always warn that this would happen if it was constructed in the tara skryne valley and it turns out they were right all along. Besides I always thought they should have chosen the alternative route and not in such an archaeologically rich area as this was bound to happen. I also think the train line should have been given priority ahead of the motorway (although of course the dunshaughlin bypass should have been built long ago)
http://rte.ie/news/2007/0501/meath.html

EDIT: Beat me to it "navan junction"

Navan Junction

rc28 wrote:

I always thought they should have chosen the alternative route

Anyone with an iota of knowledge of the terrain around there cannot understand why the route was chosen..

The railway line followed a direct alignment between Dunshaughlin/Drumree and Navan, using the natural contours of the land through the Skane Valley. If I had been a betting man in 1999, I would have bet on a similar route to the railway being chosen with a new link road to Trim.

The M3 does meandar all over the place, and that (the Gabhra aka Tara/Skryne) valley has got to be an arcaeological minefield.

However, how they missed an enclosure the size of three football pitches beggars belief.

I swear the towns along the N3 corridor must be cursed by the Wicked Transport Fairy

I always thought something like the Tara brooch or the like might be found and stop works - not something with twice the land take of Croke Park

Zoney

This isn't a tale of conservationists vs. developers. It's just another chapter in the saga of government mismanagement and poor planning (or washing their hands of their management and responsibility role - not in Galway water of course). Let us hope a sensible decision on a way forward for Meath transport is taken and we don't end up with a chapter rivalling that of Luas, the M50, Dublin Port Tunnel, Metro (and there's a lot left to write in that one, it won't be pretty I fear), etc.

However, I wouldn't bet on it. Probably the most likely thing to happen is an even more protracted M3 project that will rival all those other stories. And when the M3 is finished, then what? How exactly is it going to work bringing those tens of thousands of vehicles to the Blanchardstown bypass quicker, or the M50 (even with the upgrade - nevermind that the N3-N4 section is last on the agenda!).

Seth Brundle

Why was there the sod turned yesterday when this information was already known? The excavation work on the site seems considerable enough having seen it on the news.
Was it just another chance for a photoshoot for the election before the brown stuff hit the fan?

Brian CivilEng

Zoney wrote:

- nevermind that the N3-N4 section is last on the agenda!).

The N3-N4 section will be starting within days, it's due to be completed early 2008...

Navan Junction

kbannon wrote:

Was it just another chance for a photoshoot for the election before the brown stuff hit the fan?

Could be.

Chronicle is plastered in stuff about sod turning. Stories about farmers not getting agreed compensation, Cullen leaving dignataries waiting an hour whilst he engaged in a debate by phone on local radio in Waterford, etc.

Big ad for Noel Dempsey and Johnny Brady saying 'Some talked about it, others tried to block it, We delivered it.'

However, the interesting thing is that the Chronicle quotes Martin Cullen saying yesterday that the M3 will be built now in two phases. Phase one will be Clonee to Lismullen..

I thought that strange until I just realised that... Lismullen is area of the site being sealed off..!

Now the whole Carrickmines mess escalated as a result from the road being built up to either side of the castle and the NRA then saying that there was no alternative route as the road was already built up either side of the castle.

This could turn into a complete disaster if it becomes a Carrickmines re-run - however I suspect that work will start on the Clonee Lismullin stage, and the rest will be forced through after the election, or earlier if the National Museum says go for.

I hope that valley does not become a lobster-pot (ie it goes in but can't find a way out) for for a cocked up project that makes Meath a laughing stock for generations

DerekP11

Without meaning any insult to Meath and its residents, it is already a cocked up county in terms of transport. Like its sister counties of Kildare, Wicklow and Louth, it seen huge population increases due to extensive housing development. However, unlike those other counties it had no rail connection and very poor road connections with Dublin. Kildare has the M7/N7 and a rail connection. Wicklow now has a dual carraigeway on the N11 and a rail service, while Louth also has the rail connection and now the M1. If you look at it in these terms, something went very wrong in Meath over the last 10 years.

It now looks like a very poor choice of destination for house buyers working in Dublin. But in the late 90s it was sold as the dream. Out of the so called dormer towns, Navan was perhaps the most problematic and continues to be so.

D'Peoples Voice

Zoney wrote:

This isn't a tale of conservationists vs. developers. It's just another chapter in the saga of government mismanagement and poor planning (or washing their hands of their management and responsibility role - not in Galway water of course).

Zoney, if are going to use the term Government, be clear about which government you are talking about.

Is it Central government who approved the financing of the road?
or is it Local government who decided on the route the road took!

Personally people should be looking at the public consultation stage and asking what went wrong, and if certain members of local government (Meath county council) should be forced to resign over this!
Far too many developments such as roads are built only to have people say afterwards, well they should have done this or that! After wasting so much tax payers money on archaeologists working on this site, people need to ask just why the hell did local government agree on this route. People forget that these archaeologists were working on this site for YEARS at taxpayers expense! :mad: If the people of Meath were forced to foot this bill, they did elect this local government after all, perhaps we might see a different set of councillors in Meath County Council next time out!:mad:

Xyndrix

I think both central government and local government are to blame in this sorry affair but clearly Meath County Council had a leading role seeing as they selected the route. One shouldn't really be surprised I suppose when you look at some of the pronouncements of the councillors. Take Tommy Reilly for example: he confidently predicted there was nothing to find along the route save a few "pots and pans". I wonder what he has to say for himself now. The same esteemed councillor recently dismissed the old rail alignment as not being of much use due to it having "only cattle, sheep and horses" along much of the route. He seems happy to support some fantasy route that will serve every town in south east Meath regardless of cost before it finally finds its way somehow to Navan. Of course, he and his fellow councillors should have ensured that population growth and development was channelled to settlements along the old alignment over the last 10 years. All they managed to do in fact was put a sewer pipe in its way.

I think Meath is just cursed basically. It's local representatives are a complete disgrace and it doesn't look like anything is going to change. The amazing thing is the population doesn't seem to be all that bothered and will probably just elect the same old faces at this election and the next local election. I guess as long as that goes on we're really only getting what we deserve as a county.