MayDay DISGRACE!!!

pork99

Originally posted by Boston
The only experience I have with mayday protestors are the ones that attacked a local top petrol station with paint. A part from the fact that this station brings employment and money into a highly disadvanaged area, it is also someones lifely hood they tried to destroy.

Why should they give a sh|te? Their daddys will get them good jobs when they graduate from Trinity.

I knew a bunch of people like that in London years ago. TCD anarchists and SWP types :rolleyes: I went on an anti-apartheid march with them (that long ago). We went into a Shell (as far as I remember) station on Camden Rd. The Indian or Pakistani guy behind the counter was treated to a harange on racism and the error of working for a company that operates in South Africa by this mob. Some Indian/Pakistani guy just trying make a living & support his family being lectured and intimidated by a mob of privileged white middle class brats. Also while they had his attention diverted some of the indulged in some "free shopping" ie shoplifting. This was probably the beginning of the end for my left wing political sympathies.

Originally posted by Memnoch
I intend to work (after i graduate med school), pay my taxes, and be a law abiding citizen. That doesn't mean that I should stand idly by while exploitation and profiteering are rife...

You are going into a profession entry into which is, quite correctly, regulated by the state. You will work in a protected market. You will be well paid and I do not begrudge you the money you will make, which most medical people earn and deserve. I'd pay you more if anything.

The rest of us poor gobsh|tes, not having your educational advantages, have to make a living through " exploitation and profiteering" so that like you, we can pay our taxes so the state can invest in splendid things like health, education, infrastructure etc

seamus

Originally posted by dahamsta
How do you stop them though seamus? I get the impression that they don't because they can't.

adam

Indeed it is a difficult thing to do, but with a little planning it might be possible. In fact, if they liase with Gardai/Police, they'd get more respect and better treatment from the Gardai.

An idea, just off the top of my head, so probably full of flaws and unworkable things;
They arrange a time and place to hold the protest. They contact the local police force, who then arrange a restricted area for the protestors, in a significant place (i.e. not miles away from where anyone is going to be). In return the protestors organise that everyone who wants to go, registers, and is issued with a pass. Police can then pick out known troublemakers and refuse to have their pass issued. Anyone who doesn't have a pass or who's name isn't down, can be ejected by the police.

As I say, it's just off the top of my head, and would require quite a bit of work from the organisers. You'll also get the usual paranoid Petes who don't like giving their name to the Police.

If they did something even remotely resembling this, I would respect them a hell of a lot more, and may even be more likely to listen to them.

Boston

Originally posted by pork99
Why should they give a sh|te? Their daddys will get them good jobs when they graduate from Trinity.

I go to trinity.

pork99

Originally posted by Boston
I go to trinity.

Sorry - its just the few rotten apples giving the other decent ones a bad name

sceptre

Originally posted by dahamsta
True, but rubbishing Klein (as the first poster did) based on her apparent lack of economic insight is much akin to rubbishing Moore because, well, he's a bit of an asshole. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

NoLogo wasn't about economics and it certainly wasn't about offering solutions, as the most prevalant complaint about the book ("this is terrible, but what am I supposed to do") clearly demonstrates.

Yeah, I should have added that Klein certainly had (and has) a point The book contains virtually no economics at all but neither does at least one of the articles linked to from the Economist above (can't get into the other, it seems to be premium content). The book is less about globalisation per se and more about how globalisation has been usurped by corporations leading to exploitation. Probably one of the reasons protestors tend to target the likes of Starbucks rather than Pret A Manger, even despite the latter's investment from McDonalds in 2001. The principle of globalisation itself is fine. It's what's happened to the principle of globalisation (and yes, despite what the Economist article says, it's partly through weak, ineffectual (from an economic point of view), corrupt governments that this has happened) that tends to irk many of the protestors as far as I can see.

If Klein had written an economics treatise, even a very much dumbed down version of something Joe Stiglitz had written, no-one would have read it. Besides, it wasn't where she was going with it as Adam said. It's more a study of what's going on, who's doing it, where and partly why.

As for the right to protest, obviously that exists in this country (within some limits that are mostly procedural). If the need to protest is created by people not using their votes wisely (which is rather a simplistic idea) then as BuffyBot said, you can't expect the smaller number of people who haven't been fooled by the "Time for change, lot more to do, vote for me" lobby to just sit around and hope the rest of the country will get wiser some day in the distant future. Apart from the small number of trouble makers, who should be dealt with appropriately, they're not taking the law into their own hands, they're protesting as the Constitution guarantees them the right to do. Regardless of whether you agree with the ultimate aims of the bulk of the protestors (or the more extreme (in an economic sense) element) we've laid down these rights in order to protect the ability of people to make their views known when they wish. Anyone want to tell me this is actually a bad thing for democracy?

So people should just sit quietly until the next election and say nothing? Imagine Bertie & Co decided to sell off all of Dublin's hospitals to a private company next week. Should everyone just go "ah well, I won't be voting for them next time an election comes around"?

Protesting isn't in direct opposition of utilising your vote. It's something parallel to it. Protests raise awareness, have visual impact, and allow people to express themselves outside of a ballot box, especially when access to that ballet box isn't available for x amount of time.

I wonder about this though. From what i've seen of these protests is that they complain that the government is corrupt, or that it doesn't listen to the public, and yet they're (protestors) are not willing to devote their time to actually changing anything. They're willing to march in protest, but actually dedicate their lives to politics and actually change things? No way, that involves too much time.

If you want to change things vote, and if you figure that voting won't help, create a new Political party to represent your views. You cannot cry out in anger that things are not being done when you're not prepared to actually change them yourselves. Seems to me that protestors are willing to complain but not actually do anything themselves.

I understand what you mean about raising public awareness, however, if the government is as bad as you're calling out, whats the point. You need to offer an alternative and causing a riot will not generate public support.

I don't involve myself with protestors, because i don't want to be associated with them. Know why? you're 1 step removed from being Vandals and toublemakers. It might be a minority, but this minority is rarely restrained by your own organisations. If you organise a march, guarantee thats its going to be peaceful, surely its the organisers responsibility to make sure that it is peaceful?

monument

Originally posted by Sleepy
The need to protest is created by people not using their votes wisely, vote for the wrong person and accept the consequences. Do you honestly believe that Fianna Fail give a ****e aboout the protestors views?

So the problem is that we have to resort to protests?

bobbyjoe

Seems to me that protestors are willing to complain but not actually do anything themselves.

Protesting is doing somthing isn't it?

Know why? you're 1 step removed from being Vandals and toublemakers

Quite insulting statement Klaz,
Did you see the families, old folk etc at the anti war marches in Dublin and London. Totaly respectable people expressing their dissaproval of Bush's policies.

I was at the march that followed the "Dame Street Massacre"
There was a big crowd completely good humoured and peaceful. Then when I got home what did they show on the TV3 news. Some homeless drunk who had joined in carrying a poster of Bertie Ahern for some reason, ranting and raving. Point being don't believe what you see on the news or read in the papers.

All this riot propaganda is designed to keep the families with buggies etc away from the protest. I really doubt there will be any trouble on May Day my only concern is that people will stay away due to the sh1te being printed in the papers.

Archvillain

well said.
Who among you would say the world is being properly run?
Who would say it could be much, much better?
And precisley what would you do? Other than complain about people trying to do that, of course.

Ryvita

I really think protesting is a really good way to get your point acrosss. I think it was great the way so many people came out to protest against the war.

However, what really irks me is people, like those who post on indymedia.ie about "Police Brutality" in Ireland and preparing themselves for May day with hidden padding. It's that kind of rubbish that ruins protests. People like that are going out looking for trouble so they can complain about how they were "oppressed" later.

That said I don't think that should stop people protesting. And I think it's unfair to label all people who protest with the same brush.

Boston

Originally posted by Archvillain
well said.
Who among you would say the world is being properly run?
Who would say it could be much, much better?
And precisley what would you do? Other than complain about people trying to do that, of course.

The world could also be a much worst place. I doubt rioters would improve anything. Fair enough if you have real issues, but do you not see that this minority are just allowing us to ignore you? If you really cared about your issues and wanted to get them accross you would take steps to prevent disturbance. You blame police for causing riots yet refuse to tell them what route the protest will take, and refuse to protect private property. From all accounts the Gardi are gearing up for a fight this year, I wouldn't advise anybody who isn't an thug to go into town on mayday.

bobbyjoe

The world could be worse but why settle for what we have? isn't it human nature to try and improve it.

Thanks for the advice but I think I'll go anyway and I'm definetly not a thug.

Stay at home, watch sky news, read the Sun it'll all be OK.

Boston

If even half of what the gardi think is planned for mayday happens, there will be allot of trouble in dublin that day. No body will real issues would ever want there cause associated with rioting and destruction of private property.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by seamus
An idea, just off the top of my head, so probably full of flaws and unworkable things;
They arrange a time and place to hold the protest. They contact the local police force, who then arrange a restricted area for the protestors, in a significant place (i.e. not miles away from where anyone is going to be). In return the protestors organise that everyone who wants to go, registers, and is issued with a pass. Police can then pick out known troublemakers and refuse to have their pass issued. Anyone who doesn't have a pass or who's name isn't down, can be ejected by the police.

As I say, it's just off the top of my head, and would require quite a bit of work from the organisers. You'll also get the usual paranoid Petes who don't like giving their name to the Police.

If I remember correctly, the gardai have tried to liaise with the RTS people in the past, but the RTS people wouldn't play ball - this happened before the Dame riots and at subsequent RTS "events". The Anti-War protests, on the other hand, were well handled and everyone involved made sure the authorities knew the route, times, etc beforehand.

Off-topic: And then Sinn Féin arrived, pretending to be an "anti-war" party...

As for this year's protests, I definitely recognise the right to demonstrate, but I wouldn't be seen dead near most of the leaders, who are mostly committed trotskyists, marxists and communists.

Excellent Economist article by the way.

bobbyjoe

Why are so many people convinced Mayday will result in a riot?
I've seen the newspaper reports quoting websites and message boards but its not exactly compelling evidence.

Turner

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
Why are so many people convinced Mayday will result in a riot?
I've seen the newspaper reports quoting websites and message boards but its not exactly compelling evidence.

Ehh check out what happened in Gothenburg and Genoa when the same groups of people got together to "protest".

Gottenburg 25% of police were injured and afaik Genoa was declared a state of emergency.

seamus

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
Why are so many people convinced Mayday will result in a riot?
I've seen the newspaper reports quoting websites and message boards but its not exactly compelling evidence.

You don't remember what happened in London? McDonalds completely ransacked, shops with their windows smashed and stock destroyed, people's livelyhoods seriously damaged?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0502/mayday.html

Turner

Genoa g8 summit...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0720/demos.html


All those groups are planning on "protesting" here aswell.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by bonkey
Really? Is that because opponents of globalisation don't know what they're talking about? Or because they're lacking in debating skills? Or because they're wrong?

One possible reason is that they approach the subject from a variety of standpoints some of which are contradictory.

bonkey

Originally posted by SkepticOne
One possible reason is that they approach the subject from a variety of standpoints some of which are contradictory.

They collectively do, indeed. Individually, not all of "they" do so.

Don't get me wrong...a well-versed supporter of globalisation with decent debating skills will run rings around most anti-globalisation types, because most anti-globalisation types do not have decent debating skills.

Of course, the reverse is also true - a well-versed opponent of globalisation with decent debating skills will run rings around most globalisation supporters, because...you've guessed it...most globalisation types don't have decent debating skills either.

The same is true for your point. Most supporters of globalisation will make a contradictory argument if asked to defend their beliefs.

I was just trying to determine Sleepy's logic for saying what he said...whether he was just one of those who is of the opinion that they're wrong because they don't agree with him, or if he had any argument to back up what he was saying.

Unfortunately, he hasn't answered my post, so I guess I'll never know...

jc

Quite insulting statement Klaz,
Did you see the families, old folk etc at the anti war marches in Dublin and London. Totaly respectable people expressing their dissaproval of Bush's policies.

Only if you don't read the rest of what i said following that comment. You organise a march. You are responsible for what happens on that march. If i shoot a gun in the air, and the bullet hits someone on its way down, and kills them, I'm responsible. It may be an accident, but i'm not going to blame anyone else for that accident. Its the same with this. The organisers of these protests make very little effort to restrain the minority groups. And it is a minority. Unfortuently, due to the organisers lack of control, most protests tend to fall into the category of vandalism.

Some homeless drunk who had joined in carrying a poster of Bertie Ahern for some reason, ranting and raving. Point being don't believe what you see on the news or read in the papers.

Why? Because they're showing a part of the protest that you haven't restrained? You need to organise these protests properly, otherwise its your fault if violence or such occurs. The Gardai are not to blamed for stopping the chaos u create.

All this riot propaganda is designed to keep the families with buggies etc away from the protest. I really doubt there will be any trouble on May Day my only concern is that people will stay away due to the sh1te being printed in the papers.

You have propaganda and they have propaganda. Tit for tat. Big deal. There will be trouble if the usual format is followed. Keep the extreme elements away and you can protest to your hearts content. Just don't complain abt Gardai brutality if you allow some extreme fringe to cause mayheam.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

monument

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
Why are so many people convinced Mayday will result in a riot?
I've seen the newspaper reports quoting websites and message boards but its not exactly compelling evidence.

Because a lot of the Irish media are hyping it to the last? (Apologies for this generalisation to any who are not)

Originally posted by daveirl
Check out the videos on indymedia. They do everything but directly call for violence.

What's in them?

Redleslie

Originally posted by bonkey
Don't get me wrong...a well-versed supporter of globalisation with decent debating skills will run rings around most anti-globalisation types, because most anti-globalisation types do not have decent debating skills.

Dunno about that. Personally, I've never seen one of these well-versed globalisation supporters. Ever. I would actually like to though. Since around the time of the Seattle protests the only things I've ever seen used to counter anti-globalisation criticisms are unoriginal insults, police batons and an almost religiously fanatical belief in the glory and good of the privatised, deregulated market.

Spacedog

Got an e-mail this morning, someone loves me...


>Dear Fellow Activists, Campaigners & Friends,
>
>
>
>Recently a lot of misinformation and lies has been circulated by the
>government through the media with regards to anticipated violence at the
>May Day carnival in Dublin on May 1st, the "Another Europe Is Possible"
>summit organised by the Southeast Social Forum in Waterford on May
>14/15/16th and the upcoming visit of George Bush in June.
>
>
>
>Here is the truth that counters those lies-
>
>
>
>a) All the protests being organised are completely peaceful and have
>very broad support (see below)
>
>b) The talk of thousands of violent anarchists coming to Ireland is a
>complete myth. The only group outside of Ireland that has expressed a
>desire to attend the events has been the white overalled "Wombles" (a
>peaceful group)
>
>c) There is no need for thousands of riot police as the history of
>recent protests in Ireland (think of Feb 15th, March 20th, Shannon etc)
>have been completely peaceful
>
>
>
>The government is attempting to intimidate off the streets the tens of
>thousands of people that are dissatisfied and frustrated with their
>policies of war, environmental destruction, poverty and racism etc.
>
>
>
>It is more important than ever that we exercise our democratic right to
>protest and make a better world possible
>
>
>
>The whole ethos of the Social Forum Movement is to create a peaceful
>friendly atmosphere combined with serious alternative solutions that put
>people before profit. At a time when the world's media will be in town,
>Ireland's presidency of the EU gives us the chance to bring those
>alternative solutions to the attention of a much greater audience, and by
>doing so, pressure our government into implementing the measures necessary
>for a sustainable future for us all.
>
>
>
>May Day Weekend EVENTS
>
>
>
>Friday 30th April 7pm Liberty Hall, Dublin City Centre, Speaker Susan
>George (World and European Social Forum organiser and author of the Debt
>Boomerang)
>
>Sat May 1st 12 Noon Central Bank, Dame St Carnival of Multiculturalism and
>March to Phoenix park against war and corporate greet. Irish and World
>Music.
>
>May 14th, 15th, 16th Another Europe is Possible, at EU Environment
>ministers Summit, Waterford
>
>June 25th/26th Protest against George Bush
>
>
>
>In Solidarity and Best Wishes,
>
>
>
>Rory Hearne, Convenor, Another Europe is Possible
>
>Aidan O'Halloran (South East Social Forum, Waterford)
>
>
>
>Another Europe is Possible is a broad alliance that includes Des Bonas
>(DCTU), Mick O Reilly (ATGWU), Patricia McKenna (Green Party MEP), Pat
>Cahill (ASTI), Barry Nevin (SIPTU Aviation Branch), Irish Anti-War
>Movement, Residents against Racism, Workers Party, NGO Peace Alliance,
>Socialist Party, Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Campaign against the
>Bin Tax, Community Workers, Sinn Féin, Socialist Workers Party

Moriarty

>Recently a lot of misinformation and lies has been circulated by the
>government through the media with regards to anticipated violence at the
>May Day carnival in Dublin on May 1st, the "Another Europe Is Possible"
>summit organised by the Southeast Social Forum in Waterford on May
>14/15/16th and the upcoming visit of George Bush in June.

The reports I've seen have been reporting on discussions on the likes of indymedia, they aren't only repeating verbatim what the gardai may be saying.

>c) There is no need for thousands of riot police as the history of
>recent protests in Ireland (... Shannon...)
>have been completely peaceful

So peaceful the army was called in

>Another Europe is Possible is a broad alliance that includes Des Bonas
>(DCTU), Mick O Reilly (ATGWU), Patricia McKenna (Green Party MEP), Pat
>Cahill (ASTI), Barry Nevin (SIPTU Aviation Branch), Irish Anti-War
>Movement, Residents against Racism, Workers Party, NGO Peace Alliance,
>Socialist Party, Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Campaign against the
>Bin Tax, Community Workers, Sinn Féin, Socialist Workers Party

"Another Europe" aka "A Europe without Ireland". All the same its great to see the workers party, socialists, IPSC, SF and the SWP have something to keep them occupied at the weekends. Heh.

bonkey

Originally posted by Spacedog

>c) There is no need for thousands of riot police as the history of
>recent protests in Ireland (think of Feb 15th, March 20th, Shannon etc)
>have been completely peaceful

Shannon was entirely peaceful. Those planes just spontaneously generated sledgehammer damage, m'lud.

jc

ReefBreak

According to the news on Newstalk 106, Gardai have just informed the organisers of the protests, that Pheonix Park will be closed to the public on MayDay. So, I guess that'll give them an excuse to riot.

Spacedog

What is the alternative to actually attending the protests and being branded a riot insighting hippy, if you wish to protest peacefully?

Have we no choice but to become right wing facists moaning about those filthy commie-trotskyists expressing their stinkin' freedom of speech?

Have we no choice but to become right wing facists moaning about those filthy commie-trotskyists expressing their stinkin' freedom of speech?

You do have the choice to protest peacefully. The problem I and alot of people have is that any trouble that does occur is blamed on minorities. The organisers never seem to realise that it is their responsibility to prevent these troublemakers from causing problems. That is the reason why so many people are against these protests. Its like saying "I have the right to light a fire, but its not my fault if i light it over a stick of dynamite."