Western Rail Corridor

westtip

Nostradamus wrote: »

Anyone who thinks the WRC is major poltical issue, either does not live in the West, or they are deluded.

100% correct Nosty. We must have a pint in Paddy Jordans someday and look out the pub window at the thousands of commuters waiting for the Manulla Junction train to depart. Tis a sad dillusion the whole thing.

Judgement Day

Nostradamus wrote: »

The Ennis-Athenry section is not now going to be opened as planned. Little birdy told me today.

A limited Summer service in 2010. No other plans. The 8 commuter trains a day packed with business excutives on their way to Galway and Limerick is dead in the water.

Not the same little birdy that you were discussing Ballina's rail freight with?..:pac::pac::pac:

JupiterKid

I don't think anything will ever be built north of Tuam, if the WRC even makes it that far. As it stands, the new line between Ennis and Athenry will struggle. Do the members of WoT subsist on magic mushrooms for their diet? They appear to be utterly divorced from reality.:rolleyes:

There's really no justification for finishing the WRC - especially in light of deficiencies in our much more critical rail lines such as the main rail line on the island - between Dublin and Belfast - now severed and there is no alternative route.:(

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

Not the same little birdy that you were discussing Ballina's rail freight with?..:pac::pac::pac:

JD no matter what nostys source of information is - there are no drivers for the route and are IE going to redirect driver resources to drive empty trains? Eg trains out of Galway to Limerick - if there are only enough drivers to run the Dublin line what will get precedence? how many drivers would this route need to operate a 16 train a day service, (8 each way is I think the claim WOT are saying the service needs - and to justify the capital spend on the line it has to be at least this many trains - I don't know the answer but perhaps someone can enlighten me. In a union led company like IE the answer is probably something stupid but I am not going to even hazard at a guess, and with a recruitment embargo on where are they coming from? So they have built this line and now it appears due to operational problems (LACK OF MONEY, WILL AND DRIVERS) it can't open!!

Now lets add it to the catalogue of projects we can list like this - E voting machines, decentralisation, merger of the health boards, etc etc. Incompetence! Welcome to governance by fools.

corktina

well lets be a bit realistic and say 8 trains a day....taking 2 hours to do the trip, add in personal needs breaks and time spent checking over the train and disposing of it, then each driver would only be able to do one return trip per day (maybe a trip out to Limerick Junction and back could be squeezed in but thats not relevant to the WRC) . So that 8 drivers per day extra to run Monday to Friday plus extras to cover weekends, holidays and sickness.

Resources needed?
well ,at least two units to operate a 2 hourly service from 6 am to 8pm but if you want to have an increased service in the rush hours (which would be sensible) then you'd need extra units to cover that. For example if you wanted trains leaving galway at 6am 7am 7.30 and 8am then three units would be needed to cover this as the balancing train out of Limerick wont have arrived until 8am.Same at the other end of the line, so Id guess you'd need at least 6 units to cover such a timetable.

westtip

OK folks at this stage I think you know pretty much where I stand on this issue - just to let you know I am not actually against it - I just don't see the logic or sense in it. If it could work then fine let it work - we all know it won't.

However here is my new idea for the WRC.

WOT are essentially a bunch of rail enthusiasts. In the UK and other countries such people have done sterling jobs on running and resurecting little branch lines here and there for the sake of nostalgia - many of them create wonderful tourist attractions.

There is undoubtedly out there a public nostalgia for the old days -lets face it look how those steam specials get sold out on the east coast line.

Here is my big idea:

Franchise the WRC from Ennis to Athenry out to WOT and let them run the line with steam trains with unpaid enthusiastic drivers, ticket collectors, Don't give them access to the Athenry - Galway line - passengers would have change here for Galway. The Limerick Ennis line would remain in situ being managed by IE.

Re the rest of the WRC north of Athenry rent the entire line to WOT for one euro a year - with strict conditions - and then let them fund raise and mile by mile restore the line themselves with volunteer workers etc - they would have to apply for a license to run the line when it is complete with safety certs etc. Clearly the Government want to wash their hands of the whole thing, IE want to do so the same, so why not hand it over to WOT and say there you go lads get on with it.

Now we might give them some money from the public purse - a few euro from the lottery perhaps, or some Failte Ireland grants as they would essentially be managing, maintaining and expanding a tourist attraction.

Now if the line does become a rip roaring success as an actual working railway with commuters using the WOT nostalgia steam trains - then and only then IE could look at it in terms of running regular trains on the line.

This idea may seem a bit off the wall - but lets face it the line has been fully restored from Ennis to Athenry, its safe and ready to use, but the numbers are not going to stack up so why not let the trainies from WOT use it to have a bit of fun on and actually make it a worthwhile tourist attraction!!

westtip

corktina wrote: »

well lets be a bit realistic and say 8 trains a day....taking 2 hours to do the trip, add in personal needs breaks and time spent checking over the train and disposing of it, then each driver would only be able to do one return trip per day (maybe a trip out to Limerick Junction and back could be squeezed in but thats not relevant to the WRC) . So that 8 drivers per day extra to run Monday to Friday plus extras to cover weekends, holidays and sickness.

Resources needed?
well ,at least two units to operate a 2 hourly service from 6 am to 8pm but if you want to have an increased service in the rush hours (which would be sensible) then you'd need extra units to cover that. For example if you wanted trains leaving galway at 6am 7am 7.30 and 8am then three units would be needed to cover this as the balancing train out of Limerick wont have arrived until 8am.Same at the other end of the line, so Id guess you'd need at least 6 units to cover such a timetable.

Interesting - you are basically saying 4 trains each way a day - FFS why on earth did they bother renovating the line! - answers on a post card please. Yes now they have created this monster the chickens come home to roost and they realise - guess what guys we just can't do it! And if it wants to be run as proper commuter service (well a commuter service with no commuters on!), then the story gets even more horrendous I think my nostalgia line begins to stack up!

corktina

three i guess....6am fromm galway would be 10 am return then 12 noon from galway agian and 2 pm return etc...unit would make three return trips (but would need remanning due to PNBs etc.)

corktina

westtip wrote: »

OK folks at this stage I think you know pretty much where I stand on this issue - just to let you know I am not actually against it - I just don't see the logic or sense in it. If it could work then fine let it work - we all know it won't.

However here is my new idea for the WRC.

WOT are essentially a bunch of rail enthusiasts. In the UK and other countries such people have done sterling jobs on running and resurecting little branch lines here and there for the sake of nostalgia - many of them create wonderful tourist attractions.

There is undoubtedly out there a public nostalgia for the old days -lets face it look how those steam specials get sold out on the east coast line.

Here is my big idea:

Franchise the WRC from Ennis to Athenry out to WOT and let them run the line with steam trains with unpaid enthusiastic drivers, ticket collectors, Don't give them access to the Athenry - Galway line - passengers would have change here for Galway. The Limerick Ennis line would remain in situ being managed by IE.

Re the rest of the WRC north of Athenry rent the entire line to WOT for one euro a year - with strict conditions - and then let them fund raise and mile by mile restore the line themselves with volunteer workers etc - they would have to apply for a license to run the line when it is complete with safety certs etc. Clearly the Government want to wash their hands of the whole thing, IE want to do so the same, so why not hand it over to WOT and say there you go lads get on with it.

Now we might give them some money from the public purse - a few euro from the lottery perhaps, or some Failte Ireland grants as they would essentially be managing, maintaining and expanding a tourist attraction.

Now if the line does become a rip roaring success as an actual working railway with commuters using the WOT nostalgia steam trains - then and only then IE could look at it in terms of running regular trains on the line.

This idea may seem a bit off the wall - but lets face it the line has been fully restored from Ennis to Athenry, its safe and ready to use, but the numbers are not going to stack up so why not let the trainies from WOT use it to have a bit of fun on and actually make it a worthwhile tourist attraction!!

Ennis to Athenry would actually make a nice steam line...two problems, shortage of locos and few volunteers.

westtip

corktina wrote: »

Ennis to Athenry would actually make a nice steam line...two problems, shortage of locos and few volunteers.

Corky the problems would have to be overcome by WOT; if they are so mad keen on opening the line let them address these problems is my point. stick in a couple of turntables at each end. Great tourism spin off, rail nerds would be in nirvanna, Government and IE off the hook, potential use for historic film locations, open a national steam loco museum in either Athenry or Ennis, etc etc

corktina

its a good idea....make em put their money were their mouth is in effect. Perhaps get IE to lease/sell/even GIVE them a couple of railcar sets too. Ennis to be the HQ being handy for Shannon I guess...

westtip

corktina wrote: »

its a good idea....make em put their money were their mouth is in effect. Perhaps get IE to lease/sell/even GIVE them a couple of railcar sets too. Ennis to be the HQ being handy for Shannon I guess...

Corky I woudl give them a few quid from the lottery and away they go, actually think I would take my kids down to use it once or twice a year and yes can you imagine all the T spotter nerds arriving at shannon for such a railway treat so yes Ennis could be the HQ of WOT nerdness. But I have to ask do the good people of ennis does this infliction on them??

skelliser

i live in the west of ireland.

imo the limerick -galway line is a waste. I think the galway - tuam line would have been a better investment as anyone who has driven that road especially claregalway would agree.
I would hedge a guess that the amount of cars travelling that road are easily twice that on the limerick road. And the motorway will be at gort by summer next year so imo the raillink is a complete waste.
Alot of people commute to a from tuam and a raillink would defo be used and the journey time would be comparable if not better then by car. There are serious traffic problems in the city and they are getting worse, last thursday literally the whole city was ground to a halt from lunch to late evening, theres a thread in the galway city forum about it.

When the galway- limerick line is a failure i would be worried that the rest of the wrc will be written off just when we actually will need a link to tuam.

Maybe that was the ff/cie agenda all along?! build them the first link, watch it fail and then use this justification for scraping the rest of the wrc.

westtip

skelliser wrote: »

i live in the west of ireland.


Maybe that was the ff/cie agenda all along?! build them the first link, watch it fail and then use this justification for scraping the rest of the wrc.

You could be proven right - read the Dempsey consistent line on this matter in posts above; but a better bus service may well serve you better than waiting for a train line which is likely to have a very indifferent and infrequent service. The DC from Tuam to Gort is very important for the region as is the Galway bypass - link these two pieces of road infrstructure with better bus services and you don't need the rail line to Tuam.

murphaph

The trainspotters won't be able to orgasm to the sight of a fully laden 071 hauling timber etc. if it's made into a heritage railway (a damned fine idea actually).

I imagine any heritage railway would have to be at least as safe as IE (no jokes about Malahide please lol) so they'd have to either have manned level crossings or properly automated ones. The latter being prohibitively expensive given the number of these from Claremorris to Collooney. I doubt they'd find enough volunteers to train a gatekeepers but who knows.

The section from Ennis to Athenry will not be handed over to them though-that's almost guaranteed now given what has just happened at Malahide; IE will now have realised that a little bit of redundancy may be a good thing and they'll be glad of a fully relaid (even idle) section from Athenry to Ennis should anything untoward happen to the line say, at Athlone.

North of Athenry to Tuam could be a grand steam railway though-wasn't there at one time a group of preservationists based out of Tuam, but there was a fire or something?

kildarecommuter

A group called Westrail operated out of Tuam for a no of years but IE basically shut the line and left them with no where to go.
As for running it as a Heritage line Ireland suffers from a lack of interest in preserving anything that was built anytime after about 1260!

westtip

murphaph wrote: »

I imagine any heritage railway would have to be at least as safe as IE (no jokes about Malahide please lol) so they'd have to either have manned level crossings or properly automated ones. The latter being prohibitively expensive given the number of these from Claremorris to Collooney. I doubt they'd find enough volunteers to train a gatekeepers but who knows.

?

murphagh claremorris collooney will never happen no matter what happens on the rest of the line.

unit 1

no no no just wait untill enda gets in and gets the country in shape again.Then with the might of fine gael and the will of the people and a vision for the future IT WILL HAPPEN. Build it and they will come.:rolleyes:

westtip

unit 1 wrote: »

no no no just wait untill enda gets in and gets the country in shape again.Then with the might of fine gael and the will of the people and a vision for the future IT WILL HAPPEN. Build it and they will come.:rolleyes:

His cheques will bounce at the ECB. Build it and they will come - they said that about all the empty housing estates we have at the edge of villages and small towns in the west of Ireland - wake up smell the roses and get real. Its a dead project strangling transport initiatives in the west.

DWCommuter

It wont be a heritage line anyway. Well not in the strictest sense of the word anyway.;)

However, while I am not a supporter of the WRC, for a variety of reasons, the money has been spent between Ennis and Athenry. I certainly hope that both Government and IE don't start to play stupid economic games with the lines limited potential. You can't promise the world in good times and then try and nuke it in bad times. They insisted on building it so they had better run the damn thing as best as possible. Im a tax payer and I want this monumental token to certain western mentalies to be worked to **** in the interests of VFM. But in saying that, we really don't know if passenger figures will be poor between Limerick and Galway. Ireland is a funny country in terms of rail transport. I can easily see reasonably full trains at certain hours, if the timetable is worked out in a business driven fashion as opposed to a social service agenda. Its built. Milk the bitch.

Ultimately improved roads will kill the line off. But that argument can also be applied to most inter city rail routes as road journey times tumble downwards. Intercity rail is in big trouble in Ireland. Thats a different argument.

IE were never fully commited or convinced by this line. Despite their ineptitude elsewhere, they were basically forced into reopening it. Say what you like about them, but they still hold a level of cop on to see that this railway was a drain on money and resources. (even in their little mismanaged world) Your Government ploughed ahead with this reopening, but were never going to spend what should have been spent in terms of rolling stock, extra staff etc etc. Therefore what is built and ready will struggle to compete in the 21st century. This aspect will expose WOT for the bunch of twats that they are because they won't care about the quality of rolling stock or service. They wont campaign on behalf of disgruntled customers. The line will open and they will issue a ****..sorry...press release claiming that the people of the west are saved and will be delivered to the promised land.

Irish railway history since the 1980s is littered with Government commitments via political interference, to reintroduce rail services and most without any semblence of what it takes to actually do it properly. The Maynooth line commuter service is a prime example. Introduced in the 80s on Government insistance, but with limited cash. Ennis - Athenry is the 21st century equivilent. Poorly thought out and merely a bucket being brought to the parish pump politic.

In all of this WOT are being hoodwinked through their own ignorance of what efficient and sustainable public transport actually is in a region like the west of Ireland. I used to dislike WOT and envy how they worked their campaign. I know that other lobbyist did too. But now I pity them and accept that both they and their precious railway campaign will be held up as an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Its not such a great legacy. Is it?

westtip

Missed yoru recently Derek; quite simply a GREAT POST

BTW there was a "rail expert" on bbc breakfast time this morning about the upcoming announcement today for the preferred route for the new high speed rail line being touted in the UK. Will it run up the east coast or west coast lineage - ie West coast will be Birmingham west midlands connurbation, Manchester north west conurbation - then on to Glasgow or will it go up the east coast route - Leicester East Midlands, Leeds West Yorkshire, Newcastle North East and then on to Edingburgh/Glasgow.

the expert said it will probably be the west coast line because that will serve more people and really thats what passenger trains are all about serving the greatest number of people.

Now confirmed it will be the western route http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8221540.stm London Birmingham in 45 minutes, Manchester in 1 hr 15 and Glasgow in just over two hours from London - can you imagine us even thinking along these lines for the axis of Belfast, Dublin Cork?

Made me laugh when I thought about the WRC and what rail development is all about in the 21st century! Here we are debating the merits or not of a toy railway that will at best reach an average speed of 40 mph running between villages and small towns - and please spare me the tale of two "cities" (Limerick/Galway - large towns please). Hilarious stuff isn't it!!

Amtmann

Article in today's IT which might be of interest: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0827/1224253334919.html

corktina

well if you can see one thing wrong in an article in places it all in doubt.

.line wasnt derelict since 1976, it has been used much more recently than that for freight and engineering trains....oh and tamping machines tamp...they dont stress test as far as im aware...

westtip

Irish Times article August 26th in full:

IARNRÓD ÉIREANN has denied that a delay in the reopening of the western rail corridor has anything to do with the McCarthy report which claimed the project may not be viable.

The Ennis to Athenry line, which has been derelict since closing in 1976, was expected to reopen this month. However, Iarnród Éireann has now confirmed that services will not start until early December. The company has said the project is progressing, and that no mention has been made to it of the contents of the McCarthy report.

A spokeswoman said the latest delay had occurred because “tamping machinery” operating on the project has had to be seconded to carry out emergency work on the Sligo to Dublin line.

“The track has been laid and the line is complete and we are pressing ahead, although we are a small bit behind schedule. We still have some other work to carry out, for example, we are still completing works on the station and car park at Sixmilebridge.”

Explaining the reason for the delay, she added: “Tamping machines are used to go over the track and stress-test it before we can let trains run on it. There were some issues on the line in Sligo, so these tamping machines had to be diverted there from where they had been working on the Ennis to Athenry line. These machines are now back and working on the line, and we now expect a start date in early December.” The project is the only piece of transport infrastructure mentioned in the McCarthy report, raising fears that it could face the axe. There are also concerns the delay in opening the line has been orchestrated until the Government has decided which elements of the report will be implemented.

Clare Green Party councillor Brian Meaney said: “It would be a gross misuse of funds now not to complete the project when it is already practically complete.

“The issue of public transport links to two of the largest urban centres on the west coast greatly enhances the sustainability and future, both environmentally and economically, of the Limerick-Shannon-Ennis-Galway region.”

A spokesman for the West on Track Community Campaign has accused the author of the McCarthy report of “targeting the west of Ireland”. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh said: “The western rail corridor is a valid and sensible project, is supported by over 100,000 people, can be done at tremendous value to the taxpayer, and will be as viable as any other rail project in Ireland.

“The McCarthy report has chosen to pick one project from the plan that should be axed – the western rail corridor – which is about 1 per cent of the total budget.”

He added: “Colm McCarthy is targeting the west of Ireland and applying his Dublin 4 vision and prejudices to a completely different set of circumstances.”

Usual tirade of abuse about the poor west from West on Track - WOT always forgets to mention the other 500,000 in the west who couldn't give a dam. and the same number of people in the west who see the Atlantic Road Corridor as a far greater priority..... gives them a chance to yet again claim to speak for the west we really need an alternative organisation in the west to make the other side heard in public.

WOT have issued the most bizarre press release so far attacking McCarthy and his "Dublin 4 economics" - really do read this one - they are definitely losing it in the head. there's a link below:

http://www.westontrack.com/news209.htm

Notice they are no longer saying anything about the thousands of jobs this rail line will bring to the region at least they are not carrying on with that myth anymore, but do read it as clearly they have lost the plot.

BluntGuy

...is supported by over 100,000 people...

One has to wonder how many of these so-called 100,000 people will use the service every day, or regularly, or perhaps even at all.

tomcollins97

Will you be able to go direct from Limerick to Galway or will it be Limerick-Ennis-Athenry-Galway??

Nostradamus

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Will you be able to go direct from Limerick to Galway or will it be Limerick-Ennis-Athenry-Galway??

The Athenry Victorian switch-back layout be replaced in situ as it was in the days of top hats and TB epidemics. They wanted the line to always be Limerick-TUAM-CLAREMORRIS. The WRC was never about anything other than one (or better still 2) more rail line into Claremorris. Making Claremorris the most heavily rail line served location on the island of Ireland. Why? We have been trying to come to terms with the answer to this question for years now.

Those of us who tried to get the direct link between Galway and Limerick as a new direct curve without the need to call/reverse/driver walkaround at Athenry were branded "haters of the West" and so on.

Thats the Western Rail "Corridor"/Limerick-Galway "service" which WestonTrack have delivered to the people of the West of Ireland.

Get use to watching the weeds grow at Athenry as you "commute" between Galway and Limerick.

Nostradamus

A spokesman for the West on Track Community Campaign has accused the author of the McCarthy report of “targeting the west of Ireland”. Colmán Ó Raghallaigh said: “The western rail corridor is a valid and sensible project, is supported by over 100,000 people, can be done at tremendous value to the taxpayer, and will be as viable as any other rail project in Ireland.
“The McCarthy report has chosen to pick one project from the plan that should be axed – the western rail corridor – which is about 1 per cent of the total budget.”
He added: “Colm McCarthy is targeting the west of Ireland and applying his Dublin 4 vision and prejudices to a completely different set of circumstances.”

You can just smell the fear.

tomcollins97

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Will you be able to go direct from Limerick to Galway or will it be Limerick-Ennis-Athenry-Galway??

It will always be Limerick-Ennis-Athenry-(wait several minutes as driver goes from one end of the train to the other)-Galway

With the motorway you can now skip Ennis on some busses. You should be able to skip even more once the next section opens.

westtip

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Will you be able to go direct from Limerick to Galway or will it be Limerick-Ennis-Athenry-Galway??

Best estimates on this board have suggestd one hour 50 minutes for Limerick to Galway and yes they will be as per your latter route. with the new motorway and when Gort is bypassed in particular (should be by July nxt year), and with the advantage of bus lanes into Galway town centre the express buses from one large town Limerick to the other large town Galway - should do the journey in about an hour or just over and the fare on the buses is likely to be very competitive. Market forces will have killed this "commuting" rail line before it arrives. WRC DOA.