Western Rail Corridor

westtip

Hungerford wrote: »

I think you'll find it's nearer to 20 for Limerick Junction to Waterford. Still disastrous though.

Well lets get into a debate whether its 20 or 17 eh, I mean those odd three people make such a huge difference. Disastrous???, not really, just lets face facts that the cross country not aimed at Dublin rail routes in this country don't work, won't work and probably never will work - why? because rural ireland is such a car based society the relevance of train travel to 99% of the population is meaningless in 2009. Is this disastrous? well you try and live in rural ireland without a car!!

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

westtip I have to say it, you're nearly as much as a throwback/ reactionary as myself. I must say despite not agreeing with everything posted here recently it has made for entertaining reading. Do you think that this WRC thread will last longer than the re-opened line -when/if it ever does open? Should the WRC thread be moved to the Ranting & Raving forum?

Well you are making me laugh this afternoon - God what will we do when the first phase of WRC opens? Perhaps we should all meet on the line and swap cheese sandwiches and the contents of our flasks, I really don't know about the WRC anymore - this thread however does provide immense entertainment! Re the length of time it will be re-opened - well I think the soon to be opened section will have to remain open for at least three weeks, as for the mystic line to Claremorris the dogs on the street know this is just not going to happen....and this thread will still be running. As for becoming more and more reactionary - absolutely it comes with the ageing process I think the term Grumpy old men is most oft used these days.

Nostradamus

westtip wrote: »

the cross country not aimed at Dublin rail routes in this country don't work, won't work and probably never will work - why? because rural ireland is such a car based society

This is why buses are the great under utilised public transport solution for rural Ireland. The issue is CIE management and unions preventing meaningful rural bus services which you get in every other country in Europe.

I was in Italy not long ago and even remote areas have frequent rural bus services which have route numbers, timetables and so on. Compare that to what the animals in CIE provide this country and you see there is a whole other world between crappy sleepy provincial bus services and useless cross-country rail lines which nobody uses which is simply ignored in this country.

A RURAL BUS SERVICE is the ideal and most obvious option. Yet we spend hundreds of millions of Euros on reopening old rail lines as they were in Victorian times to buy Mayo priests a red carpet through the Pearly Gates.

and the likes of Hungerford and Judgement Day can't see the problem.

Judgement Day

westtip I was going to start a thread on this but what the hell you'll appreciate it - check this out on www.irishrailways.blogspot.com Greystones Scuttle 25

You would never guess who is behind the blog?

westtip

Nostradamus wrote: »

This is why buses are the great under utilised public transport solution for rural Ireland. The issue is CIE management and unions preventing meaningful rural bus services which you get in every other country in Europe.

and the likes of Hungerford and Judgement Day can't see the problem.

Well said sir. Absolutely - you think about the capital spend on WRC and the cost of subventing it on an ongoing basis, take one half of that funding, neh take one quarter of it and use it to subvent a bus service which is very frequent good and puntual and it will be used - it may well "lose" money but it will cost a lot less than the 19th century train route to maintain and will service a lot more people, and a mix of local services and meaningfull expres services from key towns/cities - on a point to point express basis would be the way to go. But oh no - some octogenerian priest knows more about transport planning than everyone who does it for a living! This really is whats at the crux of the whole argument. What woudl be better for the west and the people living here?

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

Hot from the Fossils' IRRS website: www.irrs.ie

[Passenger Numbers A record number of passengers travelled on the Dublin-Sligo line in 2008, with 1.34m using the service. This represents an 8% increase from 1.24m passengers in 2007. The Dublin-Sligo line is ranked as IÉ's third busiest InterCity service, after Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Galway. The passenger figures for 2008 represent a 41% growth in numbers travelling in 3 years, up from 950,000 journeys in 2005, and a doubling of passenger numbers in just five years.
The number of passengers using the Ennis-Limerick line dropped from 200,000 in 2007 to 170,000 in 2008. This was attributed to the line being closed for 7 weeks due to flooding at Ballycar.

I should think that 20 passengers per train would NOT be an average number.

JD can you just calrify something for me - are these figures for round trips? or does the 170,000 represent an equivalent of 85000 round trips? If it is the former (ie one way journey counts as one journey) then with 8 trains per day each way - thats 16 trains a day for say 315days 2008 (allowing for the closure you mentioned) = 5040 trains in 2008 170,000/5040 = 33 passengers per train - now I wonder how many of the Ennis - Limerick passengers are actually Ennis Dublin passengers? - which would reinforce all the issues that its train lines to Dublin which are the ones people are using. The numbers at 33 per train just don't stack up for a viable service - do they? For the year before the 200,000 journies on more trains 360 days (no long term closures that year) x 16 trains a day = 5760 trains = 34 passengers per train so the numbers are pretty consisten from 2007 - 2008. If half of Ennis - Limerick passengers are in fact Ennis - Dublin passengers that leaves you with a rather paltry 16 passengers per train going Ennis - Limerick. What is the reality going to be for say Ennis - Galway?

Judgement Day

westtip that would be an eccumenical matter! Seriously though, I don't know as I lifted the info from the IRRS website but I will try and find out the truth behind the Limerick/Ennis figures. Now where's my flask....

kildarecommuter

Nostradamus wrote: »

This is why buses are the great under utilised public transport solution for rural Ireland. The issue is CIE management and unions preventing meaningful rural bus services which you get in every other country in Europe.

I was in Italy not long ago and even remote areas have frequent rural bus services which have route numbers, timetables and so on. Compare that to what the animals in CIE provide this country and you see there is a whole other world between crappy sleepy provincial bus services and useless cross-country rail lines which nobody uses which is simply ignored in this country.

A RURAL BUS SERVICE is the ideal and most obvious option. Yet we spend hundreds of millions of Euros on reopening old rail lines as they were in Victorian times to buy Mayo priests a red carpet through the Pearly Gates.

and the likes of Hungerford and Judgement Day can't see the problem.

I was in Italy recently myself and used both buses and trains I found that generally speaking most of the buses ran to and from and connected with trains at station. Also Italy has quite a few rural(ish) rail lines as does Germany so there is no reason the WRC should not be completly reopened all the way to Sligo at some stage if both rail and bus services were designed to complement each other.
Of course if IE took an interest in Freight it might help too!

highlydebased

I did limerick-ennis return last friday, counted 29 inc myself going out, coming back I was on my own in the front carraige and there were 4 others in the other! (last train)

westtip

kildarecommuter wrote: »

I was in Italy recently myself and used both buses and trains I found that generally speaking most of the buses ran to and from and connected with trains at station. !

Are we seriously talking about integrated transport planning here??

Nostradamus

kildarecommuter wrote: »

I was in Italy recently myself and used both buses and trains I found that generally speaking most of the buses ran to and from and connected with trains at station.

This is the norm in all of Europe except CIE management and union land.

kildarecommuter wrote: »

Also Italy has quite a few rural(ish) rail lines as does Germany so there is no reason the WRC should not be completly reopened all the way to Sligo at some stage if both rail and bus services were designed to complement each other.
Of course if IE took an interest in Freight it might help too!

The population of Sligo "CITY" is 20,000. It actually decreased in population in recent years as the city-slickers on the Garavogue moved out to their rural 7 bedroom palaces scattered ribbon like along several dozen miles of N and R roads with the help of the CoCo's "planning" guidelines.

The largest non rail connected town between Sligo and Claremorries is Tubbercurry which has a population of 1,900 and most of its factories have either closed down or have just a tiny staff numbers left. About 30 people use the bus in both directions each day.

Yes, I can see them packed commuter trains and heavily loaded freight runs under the shadow of Knocknashee alright...

westtip

kildarecommuter wrote: »

there is no reason the WRC should not be completly reopened all the way to Sligo at some stage if both rail and bus services were designed to complement each other.
Of course if IE took an interest in Freight it might help too!

Ahem - Kildarecommuter I suggest a quick trawl backwards along this vast and sometime amusing thread to read all the rational arguments about why the WRC north of Athenry (nevermind the bit from Claremorris to collooney/sligo) should not be re-opened. Now if the N17 was a fully upgraded DC (which under T21 it is supposed to be going to be - but lets not hold our breath on that one), there would be a seamless safe road of about 130k from Sligo to Galway - even travelling at a very safe 90 kph, this would make Sligo-Galway doable in a comfortable 90 minutes; think of the implications of that fact for the viability of this dream of the WRC; think how this would alleviate much of the pain and issues involved in the Sligo Breast Cancer Unit closure; Please do read some of the previous posts though, the rationale for WRC simply does not exist.

And with this improved road - and the suggestion regarding bus as the primary form of public transport by Nostradamus, then please think if one quarter of the capital cost and cost of subventing this dam stupid project (WRC) was used to further subvent the bus services in Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo, Galway, Clare and Limerick what kind of bus service could you have between Sligo and Limerick! This is what gets me about West on Track they just don't see the big picture.

Sponge Bob

Can we get back on topic here. LOL at the posh Greystones commuters and their megagrotty railcar though

The problem opening Athenry- Ennis is the exact same problem as last year

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56777322&postcount=1298

Listen, its immaterial what railcar/ trainlet they use or how its configured.

1. There are No drivers available in Limerick or in Galway
2. The recruitment of drivers is embargoed

Therefore the service cannot run 6 times a day from early 2009 because it is now too late to recruit drivers and train them up .

The situation has worsened ( an excess of early retirements ) since I wrote that a year ago in this thread.

Same problem as always , where the **** are the drivers ??

Nostradamus

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Same problem as always , where the **** are the drivers ??

Being CIE Union Drivers, I would say one half of them in their father's testicles and the other half in their mother's ovaries.

You simply cannot become a train driver in Irish Rail unless you are of the right bloodline.

Being all good socialists that they are...:rolleyes:

westtip

No doubt West on Track will get all excited about the announcment that Coca-Cola is expanding its use of freight out of Ballina....Still does not justify the link from Athenry to Claremorris - but there you go.

I looked at their website today and pulled this snippet from a press release they gave on July 20th

The Western Rail Corridor has already created 400 jobs in the construction phase and will deliver many thousands of jobs in private sector companies, once operational

.

Perhaps one of the exponents could quantify rationalise and explain how a single track line running through the bog with 4 or 5 railcars a day running down it is going to deliver thousands of jobs in private sector companies, I work in the private sector and just don't gettit. Does anyone else? To date I have not heard a single announcement from any potential employer in the west/mid west region saying that they are creating more jobs because a nineteenth century rail line running trains at 40 mph will be re-opening soon in the west - perhaps I have missed the great announcment??

serfboard

Nostradamus wrote: »

This is why buses are the great under utilised public transport solution for rural Ireland.

The no. 1 most sensible thing I have read on this thread.

CatacombKittens

This is why buses are the great under utilised public transport solution for rural Ireland. The issue is CIE management and unions preventing meaningful rural bus services which you get in every other country in Europe.

Rural bus services are ****e. They're too restrictive since they're often just once or twice a day.

Also no buses in Ireland have toilets, I hate that.

corktina

i think they were talking about under-utiised as including there be an under-provision of them, oh and rural bus services and buses needing toilets are two different services...

Chris_533976

"Many thousands of jobs in the private sector"....

Sure...

Victor

Hungerford wrote: »

For a start, neither of us have any facts regarding the extent of free travel pass use on any element of the rail network. The only figures available are for overall passenger numbers.

I also can't see what your problem with free passes are either: practically every other European country has a similar scheme.

Sure. The problem though is that there is no transparency int he payments for these passes. The Department of Social & Family Affairs make an annual payment and tell CIÉ to like it or lump it.

Victor

mfitzy wrote: »

I hope you are correct and it is a viable service.
I am frankly amazed though that somewhere Ballina is running a freight service to Waterford; I mean, it's hardly an industrial hotspot is it?? Granted I know very little about the town, but apart from Coca-Cola who uses the freight line

One of the points to be made is that there is very little shipping on the west coast, whereas there is lots on the south coast and Irish Sea. That means if manufacturers in the west want to export, they have to use east or south coast ports. While a manufacturer producing five containers per week in Navan is likely to have it driven to Dublin Port (they would need a truck and driver anyway to get it to the railway and Irish Rail would need to add X containers per day to the Tara Mines train). For someone in Ballina, also producing five containers per week having someone make the tip to Larne / Belfast, Dublin, Cork or Waterford isn't a hugely different overhead. However, if it can be combined with someone else's containers, then all you need is one driver to get it to the railhead and you can put lots of containers on the train. If there is a glut of cargo on one day, the railway can better manage that than a truck can.

westtip

CatacombKittens wrote: »

Rural bus services are ****e. They're too restrictive since they're often just once or twice a day.

Also no buses in Ireland have toilets, I hate that.

Yes my dear catacombs, we all know they are cr*p this is why we are advocating that if even 25% of what is going to be wasted on the WRC was used to subvent a loss making but good quality bus service to the towns and villages of the west it would be money better spent than the waste on the WRC. Hello have you been reading the arguments re this matter.

Chris_533976 wrote: »

"Many thousands of jobs in the private sector"....

Sure...

I know, chris, isn't it farcical, WOT have their heads so far up their a***ses it is really quite sad the problem is they really believe they speak fo the people out west.

Judgement Day

westtip wrote: »

Yes my dear catacombs, we all know they are cr*p this is why we are advocating that if even 25% of what is going to be wasted on the WRC was used to subvent a loss making but good quality bus service to the towns and villages of the west it would be money better spent than the waste on the WRC. Hello have you been reading the arguments re this matter.


I know, chris, isn't it farcical, WOT have their heads so far up their a***ses it is really quite sad the problem is they really believe they speak fo the people out west.

As someone who admits to driving a car (with a UK licence) and sometimes using the Sligo train, I wonder how often you use the bus to go anywhere? Anyway where would one put the picnic hamper and ginger beer on a bus?

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

As someone who admits to driving a car (with a UK licence) and sometimes using the Sligo train, I wonder how often you use the bus to go anywhere? Anyway where would one put the picnic hamper and ginger beer on a bus?

Look JD, yes I drive a car, and yes I do use the train up to dublin and yes I do have a UK licence I don't really use the bus but can see the point for the sake of public transport planning in the need for a good bus service I have kids who use the bus BTW! in any event at some point in the future I will have my free bus pass and then I will want a very good service to avail of. Re the picnic hamper one would just have to travel in the first class section of the bus and ask james the driver to take care over the bumps or my claret will spill.

Carawaystick

Judgement Day wrote: »

As someone who admits to driving a car (with a UK licence) and sometimes using the Sligo train, I wonder how often you use the bus to go anywhere? Anyway where would one put the picnic hamper and ginger beer on a bus?

I suppose you could store the hamper and gargle in some of the dedicated luggage storage area all coaches have.

CatacombKittens, what makes you think the wrc services will be any better than rural bus services?
Also I've travelled on coaches here with toilets. several times.

sdanseo

Neon-Circles wrote: »

I did limerick-ennis return last friday, counted 29 inc myself going out, coming back I was on my own in the front carraige and there were 4 others in the other! (last train)

Surely yet more proof that the WRC is a complete and utter waste of money without running in between CITIES.

People simply will not change at Athenry with trains only running every 2-3hrs on each route. They'll drive.

As for Tuam-Athenry...WTF? May as well have a line from Castlecomer to Ballyjamesduff direct with no stops.

corktina

sdonn wrote: »

Surely yet more proof that the WRC is a complete and utter waste of money without running in between CITIES.

People simply will not change at Athenry with trains only running every 2-3hrs on each route. They'll drive.

As for Tuam-Athenry...WTF? May as well have a line from Castlecomer to Ballyjamesduff direct with no stops.

i think you are labouring under a misapprension there (at least I hope you are) The trains wioll simply reverse directions at Athenry..theres no question of a change (i hope)

westtip

Heres a thought about the WRC which has come to me since writing on and reading the recent thread re Coca-Cola bottling plant using the Ballina-Manulla line for freight again - which obviously has some synergy with this whole WRC debate.

So, rather than all this debate about opening the WRC from Athenry to Tuam and Claremorris; (which in reality is a non runner) - to connect with the Ballina/Manulla section would there not be merit in re-opening the Athlone-Mullingar line - for freight at least from the Ballina railhead to use as an alternative route to coming into Dublin Port on the southerly route? I know there are issues about the location of the new Athlone station in relation to the Mullingar junction - which has effectively cocked up this option for passenger services - although these could be overcome with some lateral thinking, but in terms of rail lines reopening to help the west and indeed the Midlands I have always felt this line - could contribute more in terms of population it serves, and how it would alleviate traffic problems on the lines around Dublin. In fact I am sure that if a Midlands pressure group as well organised as the vigilantes of West on Track -had got their teeth into this project several years ago - this rail line would be the one being targetted to be opened under T21 - because it (IMHO) makes a great deal more sense. Unfortunately the burghers, tradesemen and priests of Athlone/Moate and Mullingar did not do this. For me this line really is the missing link between the northern sligo line and the Galway line; and whats more it does actually run between two reasonably large towns

westtip

corktina wrote: »

i think you are labouring under a misapprension there (at least I hope you are) The trains wioll simply reverse directions at Athenry..theres no question of a change (i hope)

But Corktine what about the infamous "Corridor" argument along the west coast when in effect trains running along the "corridor" will be from Claremorris to Tuam Athenry - into Galway - out of Galway - back to Athenry and then down to Ennis/Limerick. Its not a corridor but a T junction, and how long will all this take. Or will be there be through trains from err Claremorris to Limerick - not going in on the Galway spur (now can you imagine the demand for this service!!), with the need to change at Athenry for Galway? Or will we have Northern Corridor trains running backwards and forwards from Claremorris to Galway and Southern Corridor trains running from Limerick to Galway. The mind really does boggle the more you think about this hair brained plan, actually I think dear old IE have a logistics nightmare to contend with on this one!

For the first section (Coming soon....) we don't know what journey times from Ennis to Galway will be yet (no timetalbes published) with the need for drivers to change ends at Athenry (could someone confirm this will be needed at Athenry it is my understanding of it) causing at least another five to ten minutes waiting time at Athenry, my guess is they are going to be pretty uncompetitive with other forms of transport (bus or private car) in terms of journey times.

KC61

While I would agree there is merit in reopening the Athlone-Mullingar line, pathing additional services (especially freight) would be tricky given the single track section from Mullingar to Maynooth and the much higher frequency of commuter services from there inwards to Connolly.