abortion

oscarBravo · 25-01-2004 9:59pm

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
I ain't touching this with a 10 foot barge pole

Cos this is my opinion: I am pro choice and until we have a perfect world I will not even LISTEN to people who want to ban abortion.

Ah, the futility of consistency.

the arguments always boild down to ridiculous semantic arguments about when sentience or 'a soul' (or "a huuuuman liiiiife" to give it the somewhat sanctimonious label that the "pro lifers" usually use) begins, which everybody should know is absolutely irrelevant to whether or not abortion is "right" or "wrong"

Funnily enough, I would have thought it's the only issue that's relevant to whether it's right or wrong.

For me, it breaks down like this: if a foetus is a human being, then killing it is wrong, because it's always wrong to kill a human being [1]; if it's not a human being, then it's pretty much OK to kill it.

If it was possible to resolve that debate, then the whole abortion thing might get a little simpler. I don't see it happening though.

[1] If we don't agree on this, we've nothing further to discuss.[2]

[2] OK, let me qualify that: it's always wrong to kill a human being against his or her will - lest this turn into a euthanasia debate as well...

25-01-2004 10:06pm

Originally posted by Amz
I really think you're trivialising a persons decision to get an abortion!

No I am not and that is far from my intention.
I can well understand, the agony thats involved in a decision like that.

A very close friend of mine had a pregnancy scare recently something that really knocked her for six. Her boyfriend practically abandoned her at the time because he "didn't think it was that serious" He left her alone when she needed him the most, the sense of abandonment she felt was unreal and although he said later "you know I'd have been there for you if you had been pregnant" that wasn't good enough. Her mother was the only one who was really able to offer her support of any kind. It was this situation which higlighted the ease at which men can choose to become part of a pregnancy (after conception) or to completely abandon any kind of responsibilty. My friend was on the pill and they also use condoms. So people are naieve to think that if they get pregnant it's their own fault. A lot is left to chance in that sort of situation.

Well to be honest as you know the people and it involves a very close friend, it wouldn't be fair for me to comment, except in the general sense of questioning the loyalty of anyone who doesn't stand by their partner , it looks like a sad example of selfishness on the mans part bordering on total irresponsibility.
My nick might be man, but I'm not a defender of the indefensible actions of some men.

I don't know anyone who would consider it as a method of contraception, you're gone way beyond contraception if you become pregnant. I don't think anyone has a right to say that it's used in such a way.

I never said it is used as a contraceptive tool,I said I wasn't in favour of it being used as a contraceptive tool, by which I would be arguing for using condoms and the pill rather than nothing at all.
Having said that , there are people who exist who have had more than one abortion, in which case, I would be concerned.
I'd hazzard a guess, that more unplanned pregnancies occur where no condom or pill was used during sex than when either or both are used.

Theres a usefull article on the subject here from which I'll quote:

• The primary reasons why U.S. teenagers have the highest rates of pregnancy, childbearing and abortion among developed countries is less overall contraceptive use and less use of the pill or other long-acting reversible hormonal methods, which have the highest use-effectiveness rates.

Amz · 25-01-2004 10:20pm

Ireland has a poor record of contraceptive use, mainly coz of the taboos which surround the whole area of sex and relationships. People are unwilling to discuss it and find out the information about it.

Despite the fact that fewer and fewer young people are attending mass the old fashioned Catholic attitudes live on almost as stongly as ever!!

I know in secondary school we had several personal development days where the whole issue of contraception, STI's, abortion etc were discussed with us. The immaturity in evidence at these days was shocking. I couldn't believe how naieve some of my classmates were these were 17 and 18 year olds many of whom had been sleeping around for the past two or three years.

Many girls I know use Sex and the City for the sex advice, they can't talk to their mothers or friends about it for fear of being ostracised or disowned/called a slut.

It's only when these closed minded attitudes change that healthy sexual practices will become more widely used.

D!ve^Bomb! · 26-01-2004 12:36am

i aggree that education needs to be addressed.. i was talkin to my best friend a few months back bout sex and he thought that u could contract an STD thru oral sex.. and i was like, WTF?? i couldn't believe that someone would actually think that u couldn't get an std from oral sex, i never had sex ed in school but this is just commen sense

D!ve^Bomb! · 26-01-2004 12:37am

Originally posted by newband
and he thought that u could contract an STD thru oral sex..

i meant ''couldnt''

Amz · 26-01-2004 12:40am

I was wondering! Was about to point and laugh (privately of course)

D!ve^Bomb! · 26-01-2004 12:55am

damn sleep deprivation!! anyway, off to watch trauma on discovery, nothin like a few major accidents and amputations to relax the body and mind:D

may the dead rest in peace:(

dr_manhattan · 26-01-2004 12:58pm

OcarBravo -

" For me, it breaks down like this: if a foetus is a human being, then killing it is wrong, because it's always wrong to kill a human being [1]; if it's not a human being, then it's pretty much OK to kill it."

No, not the case: our society recognises plenty of situations in which killing a human being is okay: self defence. The army. Executions. It is not always wrong to kill a human being according to our law. And last i looked, soldiers and death row inmates didn't look too happy about being killed. Also, under certain cirucmstances you get a medal for killing people.

As for newband: you've got a lot of opinions don't you? For your information, people can wind up pregnant no matter how much precautions they take. I'm ten years your senior, and have yet to get anyone pregnant, but there's a lot of luck involved in that. And anyways, your judgemental and quite opinionated argument doesn't account for rape or other forms of unwanted pregnancy.

So why don't you just leave off with your judgements and wait a few years until you're out of college and making some real decisions for yourself?

(I love the way you say of you and your girlfriend "If we get pregnant" - I hate to point it out, but SHE will get pregnant, and you will, at best, help.)

But I'd state my opinion again: until you have concieved a child, you have no right to force your opinion on others about something you know nothing about: because all you bring to the tabl;e is guesswork.

Andf as far as "they should have thought about that before jumping into bed" - oh, grow up why don't you. There's a lot of complicated situations in life, and just because you feel righteous cos you never cheated on your girl doesn't mean people don't make mistakes.

Your opinions just make life harder for people who are having a hard time already: do you think anyone WANTS to consider abortion?

Typedef · 26-01-2004 1:23pm

I personally believe that every-person has a right to be alive, and that's something I believe irrespective of slightly-rabid and self-righteous people decrying me as a female repressor.

Basically.

Also it's completely sexist to dismiss men's views by virute of the fact it's a "man's" view and he can't understand. I get a little tired of these discussions where the chicks shout down the men with the age old "it's not your body, you don't understand mantra".

Personally, I think that so called pro-choice people are a mixture of extremely selfish women and essentially pussywhipped men, who are so scared of being labled sexist, that they'd agree to almost anything, to fit some absured 'new-man' motif.

I actually don't care if people flame me for saying that, because there's no sense in pussyfooting around what I believe to be the base case issue, life being too short, and for some, non-existant, if you allow abortion.

That said, I do, think that a case can be made for terminating a pregnancy where the child is severly mentally-handicapped, since, I think the potential for self-conciousness, is what really makes a person, and if a person can't fulfill that criteria, then that person really isn't a person. The same case applies to people who are brain dead/vegtables and have no chance of being a concious functioning member of society. Yes in such circumstances I would subscribe to the notion that termination of such life is, if not moral, at least entertainable, from a moral perspective.

scojones · 26-01-2004 1:30pm

I believe that abortion is fine, in certain cases (i.e under 16 yr old that is raped). She has he whole life ahead of her - no need to bare this sickos' child. Actually i think it is fine for all rape victims who become pregnant to have an abortion, they've been through enough w/o having to look after a child as well. Just my opinion.

And for all you people out there that are going to say "she can give it up for adoption", carrying the child would be way too traumatic for the victim. Like i said, just my opinion

oscarBravo · 26-01-2004 1:32pm

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
our society recognises plenty of situations in which killing a human being is okay: self defence.

It's not exactly "okay" to kill in that situation; it may be unavoidable, it may be excusable, but it's still a bad thing to do.

The army.

In a hostile situation, maybe - but it's still a bad thing to do.

Executions.

I'm implacably opposed to the death penalty. I haven't always been, but I am now.

It's interesting to note that the exceptions you cite all involve retaliation for some form of perceived wrong on the part of the target: an attacker; an enemy soldier; a dangerous criminal. Can you cite an example where it's ok to kill a human being because he or she is inconvenient?

It is not always wrong to kill a human being according to our law.

The law is not my ultimate definition of what's right or wrong - only of what's legal and illegal.

D!ve^Bomb! · 26-01-2004 3:15pm

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
As for newband: you've got a lot of opinions don't you? For your information, people can wind up pregnant no matter how much precautions they take. I'm ten years your senior, and have yet to get anyone pregnant, but there's a lot of luck involved in that. And anyways, your judgemental and quite opinionated argument doesn't account for rape or other forms of unwanted pregnancy.

if u had taken the time to read thru my other points you will realise that i have taken rape into account.

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
So why don't you just leave off with your judgements and wait a few years until you're out of college and making some real decisions for yourself?
(I love the way you say of you and your girlfriend "If we get pregnant" - I hate to point it out, but SHE will get pregnant, and you will, at best, help.).

spare me the bs! u have no idea who i am or wot decisions i make for myself,, and my gf will be the one to carry the baby but it is my baby as much as it is hers, and i believe i have a 50% say in how that baby is treated, and if WE were to get pregnant, i will TAKE RESPONSABILITY and not go to some doc with and industrial strength vaccum

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
But I'd state my opinion again: until you have concieved a child, you have no right to force your opinion on others about something you know nothing about: because all you bring to the table is guesswork.

but u haven't had a child, does this mean your opinion is invalid???

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
Andf as far as "they should have thought about that before jumping into bed" - oh, grow up why don't you. There's a lot of complicated situations in life, and just because you feel righteous cos you never cheated on your girl doesn't mean people don't make mistakes.

yes well i'm not talking bout other situations in life, if u dont have protection, then DONT HAVE SEX, thats not a ''mistake'', thats plain stupidity!!

Hobart · 26-01-2004 4:00pm

Originally posted by newband
spare me the bs! u have no idea who i am or wot decisions i make for myself,, and my gf will be the one to carry the baby but it is my baby as much as it is hers, and i believe i have a 50% say in how that baby is treated, and if WE were to get pregnant, i will TAKE RESPONSABILITY and not go to some doc with and industrial strength vaccum

If you donated your sperm to a sperm bank would you demand a 50% say in what happened to the child it produced? What if you and your girlfriend broke up, how would you leverage this "50%" control and decision making process over the child? It's not about taking "RESPONSABILITY " at all. It's about reality. And while your intentions are noble, to say the least, you will actually find that from both a societal and legal perspective your 50% argument holds little, if any, water. I'm interested to know how you would overcome this.

uberwolf · 26-01-2004 4:10pm

thats a liitle like some of the things that have been said already, that the bloke has ultimately no say in what happens and has to bear the can either way the decision goes...

Vader · 26-01-2004 4:11pm

The unborn zygote is not a human being IMO. It is a group of cells similar to a cancer. Once it becomes a fetus that s a whole different kettle of fish.

During the early weeks of pregnancy I think there is no problem with abortion for anyreason. If the parents dont want the child or the circumstances arent right just have an abortion and dont give a child an unhappy life.

Hobart · 26-01-2004 4:43pm

Originally posted by Vader
The unborn zygote is not a human being IMO. It is a group of cells similar to a cancer. Once it becomes a fetus that s a whole different kettle of fish.

You are just a group of cells at the moment. Something I never really understood was the premise of a feoteus being a human? How does this work? Why should the fact that a number of ceels have developed in a certain way determine that all of a sudden we are human. From a metabolic perspective this is nonscence.

During the early weeks of pregnancy I think there is no problem with abortion for anyreason.

I think it would be helpful not to cloud this argument with unambiuous statements like "the early weeks of pregnancy". The normal human gestation period is 40 weeks. How early is early?

If the parents dont want the child or the circumstances arent right just have an abortion and dont give a child an unhappy life.

Why would the child have an unhappy life? What evidence do you have for this?

Amz · 26-01-2004 4:50pm

The argument that men should have an input is one which is flawed in my opinion. If the couple are in a long term stable relationship and the woman becomes pregnant then naturally you're going to expect that the man have an input into the woman's decisions regarding it.

However in the case of a one night stand/short term relationship where the woman becomes pregnant, there will be prblems which arise. The woman may want nothing to do with the man. Particularly if the relationship ended after a short time (even before she discovered she was pregnant) or as with a one night stand obviously there is nostability there or emotional attatchment. That's not really a situation anyone would ideally want to bring a child into.

Noone wants a person hanging around who you're not comfortable with possibly even despise! So what rights does the mother have if she decides to keep the baby but the father demands an input?

Ragamuffin · 26-01-2004 4:57pm

I don't think there's really any point in talking about this because everyone has there different opinion. And I don't think they'll change.

Hobart · 26-01-2004 5:05pm

Originally posted by Ragamuffin
I don't think there's really any point in talking about this because everyone has there different opinion. And I don't think they'll change.

And how boring the world would be if we all went around agreeing with each other and telling each other how right we were!!

uberwolf · 26-01-2004 5:09pm

Originally posted by Amz
The argument that men should have an input is one which is flawed in my opinion. If the couple are in a long term stable relationship and the woman becomes pregnant then naturally you're going to expect that the man have an input into the woman's decisions regarding it.

However in the case of a one night stand/short term relationship where the woman becomes pregnant, there will be prblems which arise. The woman may want nothing to do with the man. Particularly if the relationship ended after a short time (even before she discovered she was pregnant) or as with a one night stand obviously there is nostability there or emotional attatchment. That's not really a situation anyone would ideally want to bring a child into.

Noone wants a person hanging around who you're not comfortable with possibly even despise! So what rights does the mother have if she decides to keep the baby but the father demands an input?

that is all fair enuff. What I am getting at is the bloke being damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. As Irish law doesn't allow abortion/termination or whatever you want to call it, its prob a moot point.

But say if a bloke wants the girl to terminate, for whatever reason, and she doesn't want too - he is responsible for the upkeep. But if he wants it to be kept, and she doesn't then he has no kid. It seems unreasonable that the bloke loses either way.
Now with the one night stand argument that still holds, its still his kid - it took two to tango and if you're having sex you should be mature enuff to deal with the consequences, and if you're having one night stands you should be protected (obviously sh*t happens)

If the bloke has no say in the decision should he have to pay?

This may be off topic and I'd be intrstd in seeing this debated seperately...

Amz · 26-01-2004 5:17pm

Irish law was and still is dictated a lot by the beliefs and wishes of the Catholic church. Many of whos teachings are archaic and unrealistic!

Realistically how many fathers do actually pay maintainance for kids they've had outside of wedlock?

In a lot of cases the mother would be quite happy not to receive money/help from the father if it meant getting him out of her life.

Kev · 26-01-2004 5:33pm

In a lot of cases the father would be quite happy not to receive money/help from the mother if it meant getting her out of his life, but he doesnt have that choice.

Amz · 26-01-2004 5:36pm

Eh, what's your point?

embee · 26-01-2004 5:45pm

Originally posted by User45701
Other Q if any of you women became pregnant now would you abort?

As things stand now, where I am in a committed, monogamous relationship with someone that I love very much, I probably wouldnt have an abortion.

If I had conceived after a one night stand or a rape, I probably would have an abortion.

Circumstances are crucial in the decision as to whether or not an abortion is the right route to take. Its all about the impact on someones life again, and a child that was conceived through a loveless, one night stand or a rape is not a child that I could raise with a clear conscience. Sure, its irresponsible to have unprotected sex on a one night stand, but women shouldnt have said child merely because of an 'if you cant do the time, dont commit the crime' attitude. A one night stand doesnt make you a bad person. Neither does getting pregnant through a one night stand. But, if a woman stands up and makes an informed decision to have an abortion (after considerably weighing up the pros and cons), she is deemed by some to be a child killer, a murderer, scum, blah blah blah ad nauseum......

A woman is perfectly within her rights to make that decision.
And ultimately, it is HER decision.

It might not be fair or right, but thats the way things stand.

Also, as an afterthought, I am almost sure that most women who do have abortions have them as a result of a one night stand. Women in a long term, healthy relationship will nine times out of ten opt for having the baby.

D!ve^Bomb! · 26-01-2004 5:54pm

i'm curious, are there any known cases of a women not wanting the baby, and the man taking her to court and winning the right for the baby to live, there must be at least one case of this happening,

to all women out there, if, for some reason you got pregnant by a one night stand etc and u didn't want to keep it, would u think about keeping it if u knew a family who were looking for a child, a family that u know would give this child a happy home and secure future, or would u still abort?

dr_manhattan · 26-01-2004 6:08pm

"spare me the bs! u have no idea who i am or wot decisions i make for myself,"

I know you're heterosexual-ish, irish, 20 years old and figure you've the right to tell people what to do about their kids. That do for starters? You've just told me about your decisions, and my limited knowledge is enough. Less of the tantrums, please.

"And my gf will be the one to carry the baby but it is my baby as much as it is hers,"

You consulted her about this? She agrees? Then fair enough: but nothing gives you that 50% except her saying "okay you have 50% say". You can have whatever opinion you like but not even the LAW says you have 50% say.

And btw, how can you have 50% say in an issue that affects the health and welfare of the other 50%? Preganancies can kill, but I've never heard of them killing a man. So how come you get equal say?

"and i believe i have a 50% say in how that baby is treated,"

believe away: see above. By the way, if your GF wasnted to terminate, that's 50% in favour and 50% against - so what would happen? (and replying "my GF would never abort a child" is a copout - this is about your idea of 50%)

"and if WE were to get pregnant,"

You are a male: no amount of surgery or miraculius intervention can make YOU pregnant. two people cannot be pregnant unless they are both women and both pregnant. Stop twisting the idea to suit your opinion. Pregnancy, the physical condition, has NOTHING to do with a man. Preganancy, the concept of expecting a child, has 50% to do with a man. However abortion is about the physical process and not the abstract concept: abortion is for unwanted pregnancies.

"i will TAKE RESPONSABILITY and not go to some doc with and industrial strength vaccum"

And you say abortion is wrong? I have helped a number of close friends to get counselling in the republic over the past 15 years, some have opted for, some not. For you to trivialise their experiences with your frankly disgusting terminology shows me that you have no respect for the issue you are discussing.

Contrary to what ignorance tells you, most abortion is done with a pill. The kind that requires surgery is the kind that is a) illegal and b) only done to save the mother. Please do not make any references to what you know nothing about, you are only showing your ignorance.

You have no idea of the misery these women have gone through, just the blind ignorance to make parallels between your relationship and everyone else's lives: anyone who seeks an abortion is already in hell, and contrary to what you seem to think it is NOT A JOKE.

and finally:

"But u haven't had a child, does this mean your opinion is invalid???"

But you see, I have no opinion: I am what is called "pro choice". That means allowing other people to make up their own minds because yes, my opinion is invalid. And so is yours. Until you have participated in the act of making a child, as far as I'm concerned you're just guessing: I am not guessing. I am simply asking these questions (again):

Why do you want to take people who are in hell and make them feel worse for what they've done? Why do you assume that you know what it feels like to lose a child for ANY reason? Why can't you just acknowledge that people have problems and it's not a perfect world?

And in reply to Oscarbravo:

human life is not understood. Therefore when you take a life you can never give it back. Therefore killing is beyond human judgement: the examples I used (self defence, the army, execution) were just to show you that society accepts and is built on principles of killing.

So therefore like abortion, killing is neither necessarily right nor wrong: it is a matter of the circumstances that it happens in. You cannot make absolute laws, because life is too important an issue - making a clause of manslaughter or accidental killing does not encourage people to murder more, it enables a better view of an issue (killing) which is far from black-and-white.

I don't think anyone is trying to say abortion is right here.

It always feels like, in these debates, that the pro-life people think that pro choicers are saying "abortion is right" or "abortion is good" (some even see to think we say "abortion is cool") - to be honest, I think abortion is a gruesome tragedy beyond belief. It wrecks lives, it's the definition of "a shame" on our entire society: but I have done enough volunteer work to see how bad the results of bringing unwanted kids into this world. That's un-wanted. That means that when you cry, your parents do not want you to exist. It often means that your parents are never there, and it makes you damn angry.

Usually this anger will get you right through the prison system and a nice cosy death by overdose or violence by the time you are a teenager. Other charming fates involve the sex industry or hypothermia.

But what abortion is, in a world of rape, poverty, ruined lives and broken dreams, is a NECESSARY EVIL. Many people who vigorously protest against abortion will not even consider demonstrating against the tanks and bombs in their local army barracks, and this kills me: why is abortion murder but the army is collateral damage?

So why can't people realise that, despite every noble declaration that "human life is sacred", it's just plain not: it's a complete hypocrisy. We walk to work past homeless people that are a testament to how ruined people's lives can be.

Lemming · 26-01-2004 6:15pm

I nominate dr_manhattan's last post for "post of the month"

/me applauds

eloquently argued!

For the record, I am pro-choice simply because I firmly believe (as dr_manhattan has pointed out) that until *I* have faced the prospect of abortion, I have no real right to tell someone else what to do.

This view is strengthened by what I consider to be a bunch of [edited-to-prevent-godwins-law-being-invoked] pigs (which I feel is still too generous a title) screaming at me from self-righteous pillars cemented in hypocrasy. I've been called some horrific names walking past these people on the street because I wouldn't stop and either engage or side with them.

D!ve^Bomb! · 26-01-2004 8:14pm

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
"spare me the bs! u have no idea who i am or wot decisions i make for myself,"

I know you're heterosexual-ish, irish, 20 years old and figure you've the right to tell people what to do about their kids. That do for starters? You've just told me about your decisions, and my limited knowledge is enough. Less of the tantrums, please.

you know me oh so well

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
"And my gf will be the one to carry the baby but it is my baby as much as it is hers,"

You consulted her about this? She agrees? Then fair enough: but nothing gives you that 50% except her saying "okay you have 50% say". You can have whatever opinion you like but not even the LAW says you have 50% say.

yes she agrees and the law isn't always right, in this case it is wrong... was the law right some years ago when women weren't allowed to vote?

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
And btw, how can you have 50% say in an issue that affects the health and welfare of the other 50%?

there are thousands of women becomming pregnant everyday by choice, the same risks apply to their health and welfare as to unplanned pregnancy.. if we all chose not to do something when there's risks involved that would effect our own well being then no body would be having babies at all..

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
By the way, if your GF wanted to terminate, that's 50% in favour and 50% against - so what would happen? (and replying "my GF would never abort a child" is a copout - this is about your idea of 50%)

that is something that should be addressed properly by the law, and i have spoken to my gf bout this, and she WOULDN'T have an abortion, even if she was raped.

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
"and if WE were to get pregnant,"

You are a male: no amount of surgery or miraculius intervention can make YOU pregnant. two people cannot be pregnant unless they are both women and both pregnant.

i dont consider u a stupid person, and i cannot believe that anyone would think i meant this in a literal sense, so either u are stupid or u are adding pointless comments for no reason.

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
Preganancy, the concept of expecting a child, has 50% to do with a man. However abortion is about the physical process and not the abstract concept: abortion is for unwanted pregnancies.

abortion is the termination of a pregnancy of an unwanted CHILD, the women may go thru th physical process but it is the process that involves a child which has 50% to do with the man/

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
"i will TAKE RESPONSABILITY and not go to some doc with and industrial strength vaccum"

And you say abortion is wrong? I have helped a number of close friends to get counselling in the republic over the past 15 years, some have opted for, some not. For you to trivialise their experiences with your frankly disgusting terminology shows me that you have no respect for the issue you are discussing..

they kill an unborn child and i'm the disgusting one,

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
Contrary to what ignorance tells you, most abortion is done with a pill.

oh well thats ok then,

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
as far as I'm concerned you're just guessing

Why do you want to take people who are in hell and make them feel worse for what they've done? Why do you assume that you know what it feels like to lose a child for ANY reason? Why can't you just acknowledge that people have problems and it's not a perfect world?

exactly wot am i guessing about,,, i never said its a perfect world, people do have problems, but a lot of the time people bring these problems on themselves.. and continue to punnish others(unborn children) for wot they have done.

Lemming · 26-01-2004 8:29pm

Originally posted by newband
you know me oh so well

Just as well as you know him or anyone else yet feel the absolute right to pontificate on how to live their lives.

that is something that should be addressed properly by the law, and i have spoken to my gf bout this, and she WOULDN'T have an abortion, even if she was raped.

To quote the phrase:

"Money talks, Bullsh*t walks". It's easy to stand there and say 'x' when you aren't (nor plan to be) facing it.

I would wager a very real likelihood that if _she_ were have an unplanned pregnancy she wouldn't be feeling so resolute. Not that she'd likely tell you that she was wavering given your hardline stance either I'm sure.

i dont consider u a stupid person, and i cannot believe that anyone would think i meant this in a literal sense, so either u are stupid or u are adding pointless comments for no reason.

dr_manhattan makes a very valid point there newband, and it shows your "maturity" that you cannot understand the point. No matter how many declarations that a man can make towards a woman, at the end of the day he can only "light the path" proverbially speaking. She has to walk it. It's her body that will undergo changes that neither you nor I can possibly fathom. All this "we" business is b*llocks. You'll be there for her, but make no mistake about it. "YOU" are not pregnant. "WE" are not pregnant. "Your girlfriend" is, and "YOU" are supporting her.

they kill an unborn child and i'm the disgusting one,

Yes. yes you are. You make such a flippant remark about what is an extremely tragic and terrible thing and then dare to pontificate.

dr_manhattan · 26-01-2004 8:50pm

"exactly wot am i guessing about,"

What it is like to have an abortion.

"i never said its a perfect world, people do have problems, but a lot of the time people bring these problems on themselves.. and continue to punnish others(unborn children) for wot they have done."

No, what you said was "I don't care how bad the remorse is, abortion is the easy way out" or something very close. This is an example of the guessing you are asking about above. You have no experience of this thing that you say is so wrong: and to say that 'a lot of the time' and 'some people' is a big change here from 'abortion is wrong'.

Now, as to the rest of what you've said, the only things you've actually replied to are the dumb points. You are the one that insists on posting "WE" (your caps) in regard to pregnancy, hence my pointing out that no "WE" ever gets pregnant: I believe that many men make it sound more like it's their issue by saying "we", and it's incorrect.

As regards knowing you, sorry but I was being sarcastic: I obviously know nothing about you except what you've told me, and I never made any criticisms based on this. Your profile tells me you're 20, and I think it's rich that someone so young speaks with such authority on abortion, and feels that they have a right to say what's right and wrong.

(and before you point out that 30 isn't too old either, I'd remind you that my position is to not tell anyone what to do with their pregnancies. Pro choice is a non-opinion, see previous post.)

next, the confusing couplet:

"yes she agrees and the law isn't always right, in this case it is wrong"

"...that is something that should be addressed properly by the law, and i have spoken to my gf bout this, and she WOULDN'T have an abortion, even if she was raped"

So the law is wrong when it doesn't suit you, but fine when it does?

And by the way, your willingness to volunteer opinions on pregnancy without having any experience of it is staggering: but do me a favour and leave rape out of this. Your GF may think she knows about rape, but she does not. Believe me, rape and its consequences change a lot of things, is all you can do in terms of through process to just sit there and go "IF x happens, then I would do this: IF y happens, then I would NEVER do this"

Anyone can do that: I just hope you never have to experience either of the above.

"abortion is the termination of a pregnancy of an unwanted CHILD,"

no, it is the termination of unwanted pregnancy. In the first trimester there is nothing resembling a child in the womb, there is just a potential child. That's like saying that jumping up and down on a beach is destroying a bunch of unmade glass - if you stop the pregnancy, no child.

And yes, I know you want it to be all dramatic, but it simply isn't. I could stoop to the same level and say "abortion is the purging of rapist spawn from the savaged uterus of a victimised woman" and that would be similar propaganda: self serving and inaccurate.

So anyways, as I say, you have answered practically none of my questions, especially not the only ones I asked you to answer: here's one -

By the way, if your GF wanted to terminate, that's 50% in favour and 50% against - so what would happen? (and replying "my GF would never abort a child" is a copout - this is about your idea of 50%

First off, you mentioned the law (the one you say is wrong), but this isn't a question of law, this is maths:

if you have 50% control and want to have the kid
but your GF has 50% and wants to terminate, then:
who has the casting vote? Cos 50% v 50% is stalemate. How does that work?

you then replied to this one with "my girlfriend would never have an abortion", top marks. Answer the math, the logic, not the present tense real world scenario.

And finally, the questions you really didn't answer at all:

Why do you want to take people who are in hell and make them feel worse for what they've done? Why do you assume that you know what it feels like to lose a child for ANY reason?

because i'm beginning to think I shall have to post examples of abortions that I have been presonally close to, in order that you can see just how ill informed your opinions are: and as a final question:

Have you ever bought a homeless person some food or given them a room for the night? Or do you do volunteer work or charity work at all? because it strikes me that maybe, just MAYBE, you could be as kind to unwanted kids after birth as you seem to want to be before birth. It seems to me that clumps of cells mean more to you than human beings.

abortion

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