abortion

Lemming

Warning: OT to wind up the vengeful-god-wrath types here


Here's a mindf*ck for you .......

God created the world right? That means God created mother nature.

Mother nature aborts. But surrrrrrrrrely God couldn't condone that and would have commanded it otherwise wouldn't he? After all he created it all in his infinite wisdom

here endeth the mindf*ck


The point I'm making here is that bringing religion/God into an argument like this immediately not only completely polarises the argument, but brings utterly intangible and abstract notions that may or may not be true to the fore. These can not be resolved or even argued with any degree of conviction

uberwolf

Originally posted by Lemming
Warning: OT to wind up the vengeful-god-wrath types here


Here's a mindf*ck for you .......

God created the world right? That means God created mother nature.

Mother nature aborts. But surrrrrrrrrely God couldn't condone that and would have commanded it otherwise wouldn't he? After all he created it all in his infinite wisdom

here endeth the mindf*ck


The point I'm making here is that bringing religion/God into an argument like this immediately not only completely polarises the argument, but brings utterly intangible and abstract notions that may or may not be true to the fore. These can not be resolved or even argued with any degree of conviction

I agree with you that religion will polarise this debate. But this is a debate on morals. People are therefore entitled to bring into play what ever it is that has given them their morals.

People die all the time, nature ensures it. But is not up to me to bring that time closer at my own whim. Spontaneous Abortion or miscarriage is a natural occurance. I am not calling all women who abort murderers but I think it is completely unreasonable to determine that because it happens in nature sometimes or somewhere it is ok for us as humans to determine that we can replicate the process.

Humans have decided to shape the world around them - If a pack of dogs savages my sister and rips her limb from limb we as a society hunt the dogs and kill them. Should we bow to natures wishes and allow the dogs continue? Furthermore would I be justified ripping your sister limb from limb, and as my defense cite the dogs? That is to say that just because nature decides doesn't mean we accept. Why do we have medicine, computers anything? Consequently it is a misnomer to use nature as a justification.

I have declared that I don't feel strongly on the matter, and it may appear that I'm swinging from side to side here. I am just picking up on what i perceive as flawed arguments and seeking clarity.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Lemming


God created the world right? That means God created mother nature.

Mother nature aborts. But surrrrrrrrrely God couldn't condone that and would have commanded it otherwise wouldn't he? After all he created it all in his infinite wisdom

Yes but you see, God is the supreme being if one believes in a God , his authority and decisions are final in that scenario.
One can play God you know, but there is probably only one and from what I can see he has given us free reign to do what we like.
If theres none theres no problem, thats the point I'm making here, as I believe there is a God and therefore If I carry out an abortion deliberately, I'm expecting to answer for that when I die.
He created a nature in my belief that is as much perilous as it is wonderfull and indeed some believe his wrath can be responsible for many an accident including natural abortions.

ixoy

I don't believe in an Almighty God because his presence makes no sense:

* A child is naturally aborted - it's an act of God. Ummm... whuh? Why is God taking away children? They've done ... what? Yet he'd let Adolf Hitler be born? No, it's an unfortunate act of science when natural abortion occurs.

* I think the pro-life aspect of this argument would work better if we, as I've been trying to do, argued it from a humanitarian perspective. Bringing religion into it tends to destabilise the argument often (because, as pointed out, there's no proofs to argue for/against) and lead it off track.

I'm still quite unconvinced by any of the humanitarian angles of allowing abortion in the case of those couples who had sex and now want to abort. Sex brings about an element of responsibility and if that act produces a child because you were irresponsible, then your responsibility is to bring that child to term at least. It's a large burden but we all know about the birds and the bees so we know it's a possibility. People, in society nowadays, are far too quick to try and shift burden of owness away from them and this is just another, stronger, example of it. This is applicable, may I reiterate, to those adoption cases where it merely interferes with the couple's lifestyle rather than victims of rape or those women physically endangered by the pregnancy.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by ixoy
I don't believe in an Almighty God because his presence makes no sense:

I've no truck with that, beliefs are a personal thing imho.

A child is naturally aborted - it's an act of God. Ummm... whuh? Why is God taking away children? They've done ... what? Yet he'd let Adolf Hitler be born? No, it's an unfortunate act of science when natural abortion occurs.

Well thats a perfectly practical point of view as a non believer.
I think Satan had more to do with the creation of hitler than God,generally if one believes in a God one believes in a satan.

Christians would believe for instance that the power of prayer can prevent a miscarriage if it's Gods plan.
I'd rather not go down the fervancy route, as I merely brought God into the equasion to highlight his impact on peoples decisions if he exists.

Not believing in his existance has no bearing on his power if he does exist or on what he does with you in the afterlife if you do something he considers wrong in this life.

The ironic thing is, and this is another point I am making here, you as a non believer could by your lifestyle , if there is a God and an afterlife end up in heaven as opposed to hell or purgatory or whatever ahead of many supposed christians.

I cannot reconcile a belief in god with a belief in elective abortion you see.
Much the same as going along the road you are taking, I can not reconcile a belief in humanity with support for elective abortion.

Shanka

I cannot reconcile a belief in god with a belief in elective abortion you see.

Belief in god? Does that not depend on which flavour of God? Maybe you mean the Christian god... But Buddhists might not agree... Basically, that's your opinion (which yer entitled to) but not everyone thinks of god or life itself that way.

Surely it is wrong to bring a life into the world that you are incapable of supporting and loving... If you have an unwanted pregnancy, decide to have it regardless of your circumstances - and end up having a life filled with misery and suffering simply because you had to be a mum (and/or dad) when you were not ready (financially or emotionally)

I had a 'one night stand' with a girl last year (we had sex the first night we met) However - the relationship blossomed and after about 6 weeks, we found out that she was pregnant. We had used a condom but...

She never gave me a say in what was to happen next. It was going away and that was that. I had always been pro-choice in my views... But saying this, I was very taken aback when I was simply informed that this was the decision...

But not for long. When I thought about it - Who was I to think that I had a say in this? It was her body, her womb, her nine months - I was happy to go along with her decision that was hers to make... I would have equally supported her if she had decided otherwise... But she was broke, living far from home and in no shape to have a baby... (neither was I for that matter but this didn't matter to me)

I went with her to London (twice, once for the check up and once again for the procedure) I held her hand the whole way. The whole time I was thinking how messed up the Irish really are for making us travel to London to go through this terrible ordeal... (its never easy - no matter what the pro lifers think of us sinners)

We live in an age where we can abort a pregnancy to suit our circumstances - we can choose when and where - Insuring that our child has every chance in this world that we can give them. I am still with this girl and someday we plan to have kids - but not until we're ready - when we are capable both financially and emotionally.

We are both very happy that we didn't go through with the birth - It would have made us both deeply unhappy and its very doubtful we could have stayed together as a couple. This would have meant that our child would not have had a father (she would have moved back to her home country)

When I hear the arguments of the pro-lifers I have to take them with a pinch of salt - I'm just thinking - until you've been in the situation - you'll never know what you're talking about - friends or no friends (that have) If we couldn't have gone to London, we would have been well and truly screwed...

One last point - In the ward 8 of the 10 beds had Irish girls in them... The Irish abort more babies per Capitola than the English do... Yet we don't allow it... Anyone smell a rat?

uberwolf

Originally posted by Shanka

When I hear the arguments of the pro-lifers I have to take them with a pinch of salt - I'm just thinking - until you've been in the situation - you'll never know what you're talking about - friends or no friends (that have) If we couldn't have gone to London, we would have been well and truly screwed...

this is the one reason I consider my self pro choice. I simply don't feel strongly enough about it to decide what I and everyone else should do if they found themselves in the position.

Shanka - I'm glad you're ok with how it happened and that you're still togther and happy.

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by Shanka
Surely it is wrong to bring a life into the world that you are incapable of supporting and loving... If you have an unwanted pregnancy, decide to have it regardless of your circumstances - and end up having a life filled with misery and suffering simply because you had to be a mum (and/or dad) when you were not ready (financially or emotionally)

err, there is such a thing called adoption..

there are plenty of people who have babies when they are not ready for them, financially and emotionally, not all these people are miserable because of it, infact i would think quite the opposite, my brother and his gf had a baby when he was 23, they weren't financially or emotionally ready(is anyone??) and after a couple of years of hard work and commitment they have a nice house, a great relationship and they wouldn't change ANYTHING, they have a beautifull daughter called Lucy Ann.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Shanka
Belief in god? Does that not depend on which flavour of God? Maybe you mean the Christian god... But Buddhists might not agree... Basically, that's your opinion (which yer entitled to) but not everyone thinks of god or life itself that way.

well you have hit the nail on the head there, if theres no God as I said or if there is one and he thinks abortion is ok, then theres no problem is there, in your way of thinking.
But if there is...

Surely it is wrong to bring a life into the world that you are incapable of supporting and loving... If you have an unwanted pregnancy, decide to have it regardless of your circumstances - and end up having a life filled with misery and suffering simply because you had to be a mum (and/or dad) when you were not ready (financially or emotionally)

Thats in essense saying selfishness is a justification for killing an unborn child.
I know of plenty un married mothers living in council houses with their rent paid for and loads of social welfare support, indeed they feel so secure, some of them have a few kids, so the economic argument doesn't wash with me really.

We live in an age where we can abort a pregnancy to suit our circumstances - we can choose when and where - Insuring that our child has every chance in this world that we can give them. I am still with this girl and someday we plan to have kids - but not until we're ready - when we are capable both financially and emotionally.

Thats a fair point.
But to carry the logic through a bit further, you will do everything you can to prevent your girlfriend getting pregnant in the first place, won't you?
That in itself is a recognition that killing an unborn child is neither a good experience,nor the best solution.
After all you are now in a relationship and I presume that you are using a condom as well as your steady girlfriend taking the pill.
The statistics for getting pregnant in that scenario are small and thankfully the need for those who disregard the life of an unborn child to kill it.

simu

I know of plenty un married mothers living in council houses with their rent paid for and loads of social welfare support, indeed they feel so secure, some of them have a few kids, so the economic argument doesn't wash with me really.

Encouraging ppl to become leeches is a good thing? That welfare money dosen't come out of a magic pot at the end of the rainbow!

Seraphina

ok, this thread is FAR too long for me to make all the replies i wanted, so im just gonna slap on my opinion at the end.
firstly, i noticed god mentioned around there somewhere.
since when has god had an opinion on this stuff? as far as im aware the only opinions we might have from god are in the bible. and well, they were bloody advanced if they had abortion back then. and kept it secret for a long time. thou shalt not kill. yes. kill what? thats terribly vague.
personally, to me, the baby is not 'alive' until it is born, because it cannot survive by itself. the woman eats, breathes and passes waste for it, it is completely dependent on her, it is a part of her body. she should be able to choose to remove it if she wants.

i feel insulted as a responsible woman who uses two forms of contraception that pro-lifers think i should be more careful, and live with my mistakes. it was not a mistake, i try everything possible to prevent it, but unfortunately nothing is 100% and i am not prepared to let something grow in my womb which will effectively destroy my life. college. out the window. social life. out the window. you've got a kid? guys, out the window.

as far as the father is concerned, well sorry, but **** off if you think i'm going through with pregnancy or childbirth for you. unless of course he's got a great job and can support the child, and is prepared to accept full custody and responsibility for the child, but even then its highly unlikely that i would go through a pregnancy for a child i didn't want. i am in a relationship, its not a one night stand, or rape, but its still not stable. i work part time. he works full time and is in college, there's no way we could support a baby. plus, will he be around in 15/20 years to pay for school/college. highly unlikely.

you can call me selfish all you want, but i would have an abortion on the basis that i do not want a child. i can chose to bring a child into the world, or i can chose not to. (back to my earlier point about it not being 'alive' in the womb'
and as far as contraception goes, i'd like to mention the HORRIFIC sex ed i got in school. words actually cannot describe it.
it was breezed over after the teacher informed us that the catholic church dont approve. and was followed by an anti-abortion video.
i was outraged at this. being 16 and knowing that this ignorant **** of a teacher could ruin someones life disturbed me. the lack of knowledge on the part of my school friends i also found disturbing. i had to explain contraception to a classmate after her trip to england for an abortion. with education like that, i think many girls in my class figured it wasn't really a risk if they weren't discussing it.

eh. im sure i had other points but they elude me right now. i'll probably post again when i remember....

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by newband
err, there is such a thing called adoption..

Why do pro-lifers always play this card? The fact is that adoption is a complete lottery..the child may get wonderful adoptive parents and grow up to be a normal well adjusted member of society, or a spend its life moving from institution to institution a turns in complete f*ckup who suicides at an early age - I've known both....

Its entirely possible a prospective parent(s) may want to spare their undifferientiated blob of cells this future....

Abortion can quite easily be seen as an act of mercy for both the mother and/or the potential offspring.

What really gets me is that rabid pro-lifers seem to think they can force their opinions on the rest of us...when the main reason I am pro-choice is that it allows everyone the right (imo its a right) to make their own decision on whether to abort or not -whether I agree with their reasons or not. The rabid pro-life lobby would deny everyone that choice.

ixoy

I know a friend who's adopted. I bet he's glad he was adopted rather than prematurely terminated...

How strict are adoption procedures nowadays? I thought you had to be fully vetted to prevent poor social situations?

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by ixoy
I know a friend who's adopted. I bet he's glad he was adopted rather than prematurely terminated...

How strict are adoption procedures nowadays? I thought you had to be fully vetted to prevent poor social situations?

persactly, no adoption agency is gonna give a child to an unstable couple living off the dole, they would give the child to a stable home with good people who physically CANT have babies, and its an insult to them that so many people choose to abort their babies when there are plenty of loving families out their who would take responsability of them without a second thought.

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
What really gets me is that rabid pro-lifers seem to think they can force their opinions on the rest of us...when the main reason I am pro-choice is that it allows everyone the right (imo its a right) to make their own decision on whether to abort or not -whether I agree with their reasons or not. The rabid pro-life lobby would deny everyone that choice.

i, nor anyone else here is ''forcing'' their opinions on anyone, we're merely expressing our opinions, i'm sittin behind a screen, as you are reading from one, if you dont like wot u read then DONT READ.

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
the right (imo its a right) to make their own decision on whether to abort or not -whether I agree with their reasons or not.B]

wot about the unborn child's right to live?? people seem to only take into consideration their own rights when its not ONLY them that is involved.

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by Seraphina
personally, to me, the baby is not 'alive' until it is born, because it cannot survive by itself. the woman eats, breathes and passes waste for it, it is completely dependent on her, it is a part of her body. she should be able to choose to remove it if she wants.

new born baby is also totaly dependant on his/her mother, the mother feeds it(breast feeding) and provides in every way for him/her, is it ok to kill a new born baby? just because a baby is not technically 'alive' in the womb is irrelevant, the baby WILL become alive,
if i was to hit a pregnant woman in the belly and in turn kill the baby, would i not be tried for murder, of course i would, but why?? if the baby is not alive then how is it murder??

Originally posted by Seraphina
i feel insulted as a responsible woman who uses two forms of contraception that pro-lifers think i should be more careful, and live with my mistakes. it was not a mistake, i try everything possible to prevent it, but unfortunately nothing is 100% and i am not prepared to let something grow in my womb which will effectively destroy my life. college. out the window. social life. out the window. you've got a kid? guys, out the window..

why would it destroy your life, why not give it to a family and provide it with a happy home and then get on with your own life. there is one thing that is 100% affective, NO SEX, we ALL take the risk, but some of us are too irresponsable to deal with our mistakes if those risks come and bite us in the ass

Originally posted by Seraphina
you can call me selfish all you want, but i would have an abortion on the basis that i do not want a child. i can chose to bring a child into the world, or i can chose not to.

if u do not want a child then dont have sex, you yourself said nothin is 100% effective, so why take that risk, someone made a point bout abortion being used as a contraceptive tool, you would be a prime example of this being the case if it were to happen to you.

embee

Adoption is another choice to make. It can be as hard, if not harder, to carry a foetus to term and then give it away for adoption. Some women cannot put themselves through such mental anguish, and opt for abortion.

When a woman is pregnant, the most important person in the equation is HER. Not the father, but her. She must look after Number One... she does not become some sort of bio-incubator for the foetus - she is still a person in her own right and is perfectly entitled to make lifestyle choices based on how she feels about herself and how her life will be affected. If she feels that adoption is not an option, that is her personal choice.

I personally do not believe that I could carry a foetus to term, deliver it, and then hand it to another woman to raise. That is not to say that I would want to raise said child myself. So, perhaps I would have an abortion. Yes - as a lifestyle choice.

So, I suppose that makes me a heartless bastard, a disease, a sinner of the highest order and first name down on the list for 'Go Directly to Hell'.

At the end of the day, none of you can call me any of the above based on a lifestyle choice because you dont know me, or my circumstances. You are mostly all men, so you will never fully know or understand what an absolute catastrophic nightmare an unplanned pregnancy can be.

Men arent too pushed on complaining about the morning after pill.... isnt that just an extremely early chemically induced abortion of sorts?

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by embee
When a woman is pregnant, the most important person in the equation is HER. Not the father, but her. She must look after Number One... she does not become some sort of bio-incubator for the foetus - she is still a person in her own right and is perfectly entitled to make lifestyle choices based on how she feels about herself and how her life will be affected.

does this mean it is ok for a woman to smoke, drink, smoke dope, take multiple drugs when she is pregnant because she has to look after ''number one''?? is she entitled to make those decisions even tho they could CONSIDERABLY damage the childs health to the point that the child might be physically or mentally handicapped, or BOTH?

embee

Originally posted by newband
new born baby is also totaly dependant on his/her mother, the mother feeds it(breast feeding) and provides in every way for him/her, is it ok to kill a new born baby? just because a baby is not technically 'alive' in the womb is irrelevant, the baby WILL become alive,

Er..... a new born baby is NOT totally dependent on its mother.
He/she is capable of breathing by itself.
In utero, he/she is provided with oxygen from its mothers amniotic fluid and the blood supply.

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by embee
Er..... a new born baby is NOT totally dependent on its mother.
He/she is capable of breathing by itself.
In utero, he/she is provided with oxygen from its mothers amniotic fluid and the blood supply.

so if a mother were to leave her new born baby on its own for an indefinate period of time would it survive on its own?... no,, he/she would eventually die.. in my eyes the baby is totaly dependant on the mother, he/she could not survive on his/her own. the fact that the baby can breath on his/her own is irelevant

Shanka

if u do not want a child then dont have sex, you yourself said nothin is 100% effective, so why take that risk, someone made a point bout abortion being used as a contraceptive tool, you would be a prime example of this being the case if it were to happen to you.

I'm sorry but I think that’s insane... Human beings have these things called basic needs: food, shelter and reproduction... depriving yourself of any of these is simply bad for you... Asking someone not to have sex because it might lead to pregnancy is like telling someone not to sleep indoors (the fresh air will do ya good) Catholic priests have shown us what happens when you deprive yourself of sex... Bad things happen - plain and simple. Not having sex to make pro-lifers happy? Are you mad?

i, nor anyone else here is ''forcing'' their opinions on anyone, we're merely expressing our opinions, i'm sittin behind a screen, as you are reading from one, if you dont like wot u read then DONT READ.

err, no - your opinions have already been forced upon us - You can't have an abortion in this country. You should be able to - but you can't.

In any other western country, you can - and if you don't agree with the morals of it - YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE ONE.

You can put the baby up for adoption, have the baby, whatever. But in Ireland we are forced to leave the country. We don’t have a choice – we don’t have the freedom to make that choice. I was lucky – I was able to afford the whole thing – but it isn’t cheap to go to London and have the procedure done… What happens when you can’t afford it?

This is what happens when someone’s opinion is ‘forced’ upon you.

At the end of the day, none of you can call me any of the above based on a lifestyle choice because you dont know me, or my circumstances. You are mostly all men, so you will never fully know or understand what an absolute catastrophic nightmare an unplanned pregnancy can be.

This is the reality. Unless you've been there, everything you say is pure speculation based on your own opinion - yet in Ireland, lives are ruined on a daily basis because your opinion is being forced upon us.

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by Shanka
I'm sorry but I think that’s insane... Human beings have these things called basic needs: food, shelter and reproduction... depriving yourself of any of these is simply bad for you... Asking someone not to have sex because it might lead to pregnancy is like telling someone not to sleep indoors (the fresh air will do ya good) Catholic priests have shown us what happens when you deprive yourself of sex... Bad things happen - plain and simple. Not having sex to make pro-lifers happy? Are you mad?

sex is not a 'need' its a pleasure, depriving yourself from sex is not bad for you, priests did not do the things they did because they were deprived from sex and frankly thats just an immature comment, there are plenty of sex offenders around who were never deprived and there are also plenty of priest who have never commited any illegal sexual act even tho they are deprived.... depprivation is not the reason why people commit sexual crimes, it is because those people are sick in the head, plain and simple

Originally posted by Shanka
err, no - your opinions have already been forced upon us - You can't have an abortion in this country. You should be able to - but you can't.

i could now just as easily say you are now ''forcing'' your opinion on me,

Originally posted by Shanka
You can put the baby up for adoption, have the baby, whatever. But in Ireland we are forced to leave the country. We don’t have a choice – we don’t have the freedom to make that choice. I was lucky – I was able to afford the whole thing – but it isn’t cheap to go to London and have the procedure done… What happens when you can’t afford it?

it isn't exactly a million miles away ya know,,, and if it were available here then i am sure there would STILL be people who might not be able to afford it, wot happens then??

Originally posted by Shanka
This is the reality. Unless you've been there, everything you say is pure speculation based on your own opinion - yet in Ireland, lives are ruined on a daily basis because your opinion is being forced upon us.

is my opinion ruining your life?? our own actions are ruining our own lives,

D!ve^Bomb!

so so tired

embee

Originally posted by newband
so if a mother were to leave her new born baby on its own for an indefinate period of time would it survive on its own?... no,, he/she would eventually die.. in my eyes the baby is totaly dependant on the mother, he/she could not survive on his/her own. the fact that the baby can breath on his/her own is irelevant

Pedant.

You said 'totally dependent'. I am telling you that, from delivery onwards, there is one process (breathing) that the baby does independent of its mother. This would make your 'totally dependent' comment false, hence me mentioning it in the first place.

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by embee
Pedant.

You said 'totally dependent'. I am telling you that, from delivery onwards, there is one process (breathing) that the baby does independent of its mother. This would make your 'totally dependent' comment false, hence me mentioning it in the first place.

ok point taken but u dont have to be a genius to know wot i meant in the first place, and wot i meant is true

D!ve^Bomb!

before i log off for the night, i would like to re post a couple of points i have made that people so coincidentaly forget to reply to, please if anyone could answer i would be gratefull..

Originally posted by newband
is it ok to kill a new born baby? just because a baby is not technically 'alive' in the womb is irrelevant, the baby WILL become alive,
if i was to hit a pregnant woman in the belly and in turn kill the baby, would i not be tried for murder, of course i would, but why?? if the baby is not alive then how is it murder??

if ANYBODY truely believes that a man should not be tried for doing this then i seriously think you are trolling, if so, **** off.. however, if you think otherwise then, in all fairness, wots the difference, same act, different perpatraitor(sp)

does this mean it is ok for a woman to smoke, drink, smoke dope, take multiple drugs when she is pregnant because she has to look after ''number one''?? is she entitled to make those decisions even tho they could CONSIDERABLY damage the childs health to the point that the child might be physically or mentally handicapped, or BOTH?

please enlighten me..

nite nite..

Lemming

Originally posted by newband

i could now just as easily say you are now ''forcing'' your opinion on me,

And HOW is that opinion being forced on you. Are you being told to have abortions? :rolleyes:

The simple fact is there isn't a CHOICE in this country. Therefore the pro-life stance is being forced upon everyone. As mentioned before if you don't want/agree with abortion, then don't subscribe to the option of it. Each case is different and each case should be decided upon by those directly involved. Not some whining 'tard on O'Connell st. who preaches from on high yet is not going to get involved.

it isn't exactly a million miles away ya know,,,

That is astoundingly unsympathetic and utterly callous newband. It's a traumatic enough decision without having to go to a foreign country to have it done where you will not have your friends/family support with you.

You call pro-choice people heartless b*stards. Take a long hard look in the mirror before you make a comment like that again.

and if it were available here then i am sure there would STILL be people who might not be able to afford it, wot happens then??

What if a nuclear bomb landed tomorrow?? :rolleyes:

pedant pedant pedant pedant pedant pedant pedant pedant

Originally posted by Lemming
Therefore the pro-life stance is being forced upon everyone.

No it is not.
The pro-choice movement can can campaign for another referendum to have elective abortion legalised in this country.
It would be a simple majority , thats needed for that.
If there wasn't a majority, it would be the case that most people disagreed with elective abortion in this country.

I'm puzzled, if it's so important why don't the pro-choice lobby in this country campaign for another referendum to actually legalise abortion here?
Or is it the case that they think a majority would still vote no to that?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Seraphina
personally, to me, the baby is not 'alive' until it is born, because it cannot survive by itself. the woman eats, breathes and passes waste for it, it is completely dependent on her, it is a part of her body. she should be able to choose to remove it if she wants.

Be careful of the "total dependency" argument - a quadriplegic could also be in a position of total dependency on others for survival, but I don't think you'd argue that that gives them the right to "remove" him/her. You should be wary of simplistic analogies in an extremely complex issue.

Besides, I think your argument is flawed: an unborn child depends on its mother for life support functions simply because it has no choice - there is no other mechanism for it to receive oxygen, nutrition etc. That doesn't make it incapable of these functions, a fact that is clearly demonstrated after birth, even by very premature babies. This takes me back to a question I asked Embee, which remains unanswered: at what point does the "cluster of cells" become a "human child"?

Originally posted by newband
ok point taken but u dont have to be a genius to know wot i meant in the first place, and wot i meant is true

Can I ask you a favour? Is there any way I could persuade you to type the words "you" and "what" in full? This isn't SMS: I get headaches trying to read your posts.

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by Lemming
And HOW is that opinion being forced on you. Are you being told to have abortions? :rolleyes:

and HOW is my opinion being forced on you, wot do u think forced means, i am EXPRESSING an opinion, just like YOU are expressing yours,

Originally posted by Lemming
The simple fact is there isn't a CHOICE in this country. Therefore the pro-life stance is being forced upon everyone. As mentioned before if you don't want/agree with abortion, then don't subscribe to the option of it. Each case is different and each case should be decided upon by those directly involved. Not some whining 'tard on O'Connell st. who preaches from on high yet is not going to get involved.

have you ever seen me on o connell street ''preaching'', eerrr, NO,

Originally posted by Lemming
That is astoundingly unsympathetic and utterly callous newband. It's a traumatic enough decision without having to go to a foreign country to have it done where you will not have your friends/family support with you.

i wouldn't exactly call england a ''foreign'' country now, thats kinda stupid, it is 30mins away on a plane... ffs, it takes me 45mins to get into town.

Originally posted by Lemming
You call pro-choice people heartless b*stards..

please quote me on this cos i dont remember saying it, err, maybe thats because i DIDN'T

Originally posted by Lemming
Take a long hard look in the mirror before you make a comment like that again..

err, no,

Originally posted by Lemming
What if a nuclear bomb landed tomorrow?? :rolleyes:

wot if it did, ur not making very good points here are u