abortion

D!ve^Bomb!

Originally posted by Moriarty
Balderdash, its scientific fact.

i know its fact, its also an excuse

ixoy

Originally posted by Moriarty
So? There are medical conditions where people could have a 99.9% chance they would die if they didnt recieve medical intervention. I dont see anyone attempting to outlaw any of these procedures on the grounds that they interfere with the natural course of life.

? Sorry, I don't get your point. What has that unrelated point about a condition got to do with the abortion issue? If anything it's supporting the argument in that you're trying to protect and harness life by following these procedures. That's the same with pro-life: both are trying to preserve a life.

byte

I think abortion should be allowed, and up to the parents (except for obvious circumstances) to decide. As a male, I realise I can never fully understand how a woman feels when pregnant, though regardless, I still would want a say in the pregnancy and whether or not to abort.

This is the subject for many a heated debate, but is there any right or wrong? Too many sides to the coin (or cube perhaps).

Moriarty

Originally posted by newband
i know its fact, its also an excuse

Its not yet a child. It has the potential to possibly be one, but it isnt yet. Do you look for excuses to tell yourself every time you clean your bathroom, killing numerous microbes and fungi?

Originally posted by ixoy
? Sorry, I don't get your point. What has that unrelated point about a condition got to do with the abortion issue? If anything it's supporting the argument in that you're trying to protect and harness life by following these procedures. That's the same with pro-life: both are trying to preserve a life.

I was trying to make a counter-point to the non-interventionist ideal you gave. We already intervene in many, many aspects of human development.

Destroying the cells at an early stage is no different than destroying a cancerous growth - there is no seperate and distinct human at this stage (unlike a late-term foetus).

Zaphod B

Will someone PLEASE move this to the relevant forum?

For the record my position is anti-pro-life. The vast majority of so-called Pro-lifers are vindictive bastards, usually male and often fanatical religious nutjobs (sorry but I will NOT come up with a nicer term to describe those who attempt to force their psychotic god-fearin' beliefs onto others like this).

I am NOT applying this to all of you who believe abortion is morally wrong. Only the ones who want to FORCE a girl who's been raped to bring a child to term (and giving her no choice when there is an option out there is force). And there are far too many of those people out there.

That site redirect does work by the way. Sick twisted ****s.

Silent Grape

as revolting and disturbing as those pictures were on that nasty site, it is the cold reality of abortion.

im on the fence on this one, however. leaning toward pro choice.

Ronaldo7

This thread is really pissing me off. Can it be moved for the love of christ? I dont want it here in after hours, its not right here. But i feel compelled to open it to see how stupid some people are.

*shudders*.

Zaphod B

Originally posted by Ronaldo7
This thread is really pissing me off. Can it be moved for the love of christ? I dont want it here in after hours, its not right here. But i feel compelled to open it to see how stupid some people are.

This from the man who thinks abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape because "If I got raped and pregnant I wouldn't"...

I can only wait for the thread on stem cell research where you'll presumably tell us it should never be allowed as "If my child were paralysed from the neck down I still wouldn't allow it"... sigh.

Sadly some of us, me included, are stupid enough to think humans are more important than potential humans.

Your point about it being in the wrong topic ain't wrong though.

Silent Grape I'm well aware those pics accurately reflect abortions. It's the context, the ridiculous bloody text announcing "Murderers! Shame shame! Hang them all!" that I object to.

Incidentally I've never been threatened with physical violence or had a messageboard post hacked by Pro-Choicers. Can't say the same for anti-people, er I mean Pro-Lifers. And I'm a guy. If they want to beat me to a pulp for thinking abortions should be legal, what do these cowards want to do to the women in question?

Woden

Originally posted by Ronaldo7
dataisgod, your so blunt about the whole thing. Can you at least show some consideration? I mean i respect your opinion although i strongly disagree with it, but can you not be so blunt?

I know i said id stay away but i couldnt...:rolleyes:

well sometimes you gotta just say it like it is ronaldo, i'm all up for a little bluntness sometimes instead of sugar coating things with niceities i find the frankness refreshing

regards

data

Ronaldo7

Originally posted by Dataisgod
well sometimes you gotta just say it like it is ronaldo, i'm all up for a little bluntness sometimes instead of sugar coating things with niceities i find the frankness refreshing

regards

data

You gotta say it like it is IN YOUR OPINION.

Woden

but of course, how my other post about the woman having all the rights (i wasn't sure which one you where referring to originally) is not an opinion

kano476

us men will never know the what childbirth is like thank jeebus. I think the decision should be down to the mother in circumstances like rape. having a baby at 15 or even younger can ruin a girl's life, isn't the emotional and physical pain of being raped enough without then having to go through nine months of pregnancy, and then having to raise a child (sometimes on their own) or even just as painful to give it up for adoption?
People who call women that have abortions (under circumsatnces)selfish and inhumane are imho just ignorant.
Bringing up a baby is stressful at any age, why shouldn't a young girl be given the opportunity to live her life?
Imo abortion is wrong when people abuse it and have them whenever they are simply not careful and get pregnant. i know people that do this, therefore i vote that it is right under circumstances.

Ronaldo7

its such a complicated matter. Its too mind boggling. Too many sides to this.

*Why do i keep coming back to this ****ing head wrecking thread? *headbutts desk*

Beruthiel

this thread should be in Humanities

B

l0pht

Im using a different username for this post.

Im a fella and ive been down both paths with my girlfriend.

All im going to say is if your not in the position where you have to make the choice and never have been, then your opinion doesnt matter at all. Because to be perfectly honest you dont know what your talking about.

The decision regardless of how it came about has to be made, you either have the abortion and move on or you have the child and accept responsibility. Its completely different in each situation and forcing your views on other people doesnt help anyone.

Everyone has to make the choice for themselves, its a huge decision for anyone. The people yelling pro-life are great for making you feel guilty about abortion but they wont be there to help you to support the child, you give up so much of your own life so your child can have his or hers, in my case hers. Likewise the people the people who scream pro-choice are fantastic but they cant help with the guilt of what youve done.

For the people who have to make the decision, sit down and think about what you want yourself, not your partner or parents or friends. make the decision and accept it.

All ill say about my own past is that my girlfriend had an abortion about 2 years ago and it was almost unbearable for a time. life does move on and things got a lot better afterwards. we were sure we had made the right choice for us at the time.
My girlfriend became pregnant again after a year and we decided to keep it and raise it, since then ive dropped out of college and work in an "alright" job. We both have made huge sacrifices but have a gorgeous baby girl to be proud of.

Originally posted by Moriarty
Its not yet a child. It has the potential to possibly be one, but it isnt yet. Do you look for excuses to tell yourself every time you clean your bathroom, killing numerous microbes and fungi?

Well I was respecting your point of view whilst disagreeing with some of it untill you came out with that gem.
Since when is bacteria of equal status to a foetus in a womb?
There is validity in discussing the why's and wherefores of ending the life of a foetus.
But there is comparatively none whatsoever in relation to killing the germs on the surface of your toilet.

Regardles of where one lies on the pro or anti choice front, every foetus except in rare circumstances has with certainty the potential to become a human being like You or I.
We were all this "bunch of cells" once.
Like it or lump it, theres no avoiding that fact.

Karl Hungus

Christ, some of these anti-abortion nut-jobs are mind numbingly ignorant.

You lot talk as if Adoption is a golden life filled with happiness and love, skipping throught the flowers and being content day after day.

Hey, sorry to burst your bubble people, but a life of numerous possible institutes, homes, and an constant lack of parents, feeling unwanted isn't exactly a thing everyone wants.

Life ****ing sucks, and that's a fact!
Especially when you're a kid.

And lets not forget the mother who's forced through an unwanted pregnancy! Imagine young Sally, a bright girl in her leaving cert year, with aspirations for college, and a great future ahead of her. One night, she gets pulled into an alley and gets raped! Suprise, the doctor says, you're pregnant! Sally has to drop her studies as the pregnancy goes on, and leave all her friends behind over something she had no choice in, yet due to peer pressure and 'Pro-life' propagand she can't get an abortion, so she has to go through the full 9 months! She gives the baby(Who we'll call Jimmy) up for adoption, and young Jimmy goes through 7 different homes, maybe 2 or 3 correctional intitutes and has a ****ing miserable life, without ever knowing any love. Where as Sally tried to resit her exams, failed, and now scrapes together a living flipping burgers.
2 lives ruined because of 'Pro-Life' rubbish!


You know, I think I'll go and google up as many pictures of horrible deaths, savage beatings, rape victims, aids victims, sick and dying people, possibly some car crash victims, and top it all off with a load of pictures of abused children who've suffered greatly at the hands of bad parents... Then I'd print them all out, put them in a big folder, and go around to all those pro-life morons, and announce to them that THIS IS WHAT LIFE IS LIKE!!!

We live in an overpopulated world, filled with rapists, murderers, and all-round scum.
Cull the fecking masses already.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Man
Well I was respecting your point of view whilst disagreeing with some of it untill you came out with that gem.
Since when is bacteria of equal status to a foetus in a womb?
There is validity in discussing the why's and wherefores of ending the life of a foetus.
But there is comparatively none whatsoever in relation to killing the germs on the surface of your toilet.

I really dont see the validity in the potential argument. Many things have the potential to do or become something else, but that alone doesnt make us treat it reverently. Of course an early pregenancy cant be said to be the same as the green slime growing behind the loo or the ant you see crawling along your windowsill, but they are - for that period of time - at a similar stage of sentience (eg, none at all). For those first few weeks these cells are about as similar to a human as a cancerous growth, so whats the problem in aborting it?

Originally posted by Man
Regardles of where one lies on the pro or anti choice front, every foetus except in rare circumstances has with certainty the potential to become a human being like You or I.
We were all this "bunch of cells" once.
Like it or lump it, theres no avoiding that fact.

I'd contest that 'I' was never the bunch of cells. 'I' came later on in the pregnancy. I am those cells to the same extent that I am my mother. Last time i checked, im not my mother.

dr_manhattan

man, thanks for moving this one in here boys... I ain't touching this with a 10 foot barge pole because:

1) everybody seems to think they have a god-given right to a serious opinion on this issue

2) everybody forms that opinion using (IMHO) entirely emotional and irrational means

3) I have never, never, EVER seen a discussion of abortion between two people of polar viewpoints where one actually listened or learned from the other. ESPECIALLY not in this country.

4) the arguments always boild down to ridiculous semantic arguments about when sentience or 'a soul' (or "a huuuuman liiiiife" to give it the somewhat sanctimonious label that the "pro lifers" usually use) begins, which everybody should know is absolutely irrelevant to whether or not abortion is "right" or "wrong"

Now I want to draw attention to the post made by 10pht:

" All im going to say is if your not in the position where you have to make the choice and never have been, then your opinion doesnt matter at all. Because to be perfectly honest you dont know what your talking about."

And he is 100% on point and has the decency to post from his own experience rather than making absolute statements.

Cos this is my opinion: I am pro choice and until we have a perfect world I will not even LISTEN to people who want to ban abortion. Come back to me when you've banned war and banned racism and inequality and death and rape and all the evil in the world, and then I'll listen. Until then, life sucks, get used to it. The babies you wish to protect could be chopping up women in 30 years time, face it there is no uch thing as a potential event or object.

But i also believe that the abortion issue is a vast signifier of human arrogance, and our inability to acknowledge that some issues are just too damn big and complex for simple laws to be passed on, that in fact some decisions are just cruel and awful and heartbreaking and that there is no legal protection from how horrible life can be.

The awe-inspiring stupidity of looking at something like abortion and asking is it "right" or "wrong" just shows that we have no respect for anything - not women's reproductive rights, not the rights of a child to a decent life, nothing. We just all want to get up on our high horses and be "right" - well I hope it feels good, because anyone I know that has had to terminate a pregnancy has gone through hell, and I fail to understand these people who seem to think that it's an "easy way out"

I'll shut up now, cos my blood pressure is at me ;-)

Originally posted by Moriarty
I really dont see the validity in the potential argument. Many things have the potential to do or become something else, but that alone doesnt make us treat it reverently. Of course an early pregenancy cant be said to be the same as the green slime growing behind the loo or the ant you see crawling along your windowsill, but they are - for that period of time - at a similar stage of sentience (eg, none at all). For those first few weeks these cells are about as similar to a human as a cancerous growth, so whats the problem in aborting it?

I dont have a problem with people choosing for themselves what they want to do, but JESUS!! Comparing a foetus, of up to some weeks ( or where most abortion laws draw the line ) to a cancerous growth or to bacteria on a toilet seat is just plain wrong imho and devoid of any sense of the importance of humanity.

I'd contest that 'I' was never the bunch of cells. 'I' came later on in the pregnancy. I am those cells to the same extent that I am my mother. Last time i checked, im not my mother.

You may well contend that.
However if your mother decided to abort the bunch of cells that became you, then you would never have existed.
We are not talking about individual sperms and individual eggs when we talk of abortion as at that stage the act of creating the thing that can potentially grow if left undisturbed to another human being has not been created.
I am referring to the bunch of cells in the womb that has this potential to become a grown human being.
This is something bacteria can never become and therefore doesnt require the same level of importance when one decides what to do with it.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Man
I dont have a problem with people choosing for themselves what they want to do, but JESUS!! Comparing a foetus, of up to some weeks ( or where most abortion laws draw the line ) to a cancerous growth or to bacteria on a toilet seat is just plain wrong imho and devoid of any sense of the importance of humanity.

Why? What is so fantasticly special about human life compared to anything else? What exactly is the importance of humanity? Why is it sacrilege to say were made the same as every other living thing on this planet?

Originally posted by Man
You may well contend that.
However if your mother decided to abort the bunch of cells that became you, then you would never have existed.

Bingo. I would never have existed, i wouldnt be around to worry about it in the first place. Whats so wrong with that? I wouldnt have been persecuted or otherwise undermind because i didnt yet exist.

Originally posted by Man
I am referring to the bunch of cells in the womb that has this potential to become a grown human being.

Ive only ever spoken here about the embryo.

Originally posted by Man
This is something bacteria can never become and therefore doesnt require the same level of importance when one decides what to do with it.

Given a few million years it might very well become sentient like we did.

All the same, I take your point. I was only trying to demonstrate my point.

Xcom2

Why not?

When we have the next referendum on abortion(we are bound to have one soon) dont we make it so only women can vote?

After all they are the ones that have to carry the things!

I can only imagine what would happen if my GF said she was pregnant,I would love a kid but I know she is not ready.So if she decided to abort the kid I could either accept that or lock her in closet for nine months! I would rather keep hold of my GF.

Untill we (MEN) can have a baby we cant really say to a woman what she does with her body!

Originally posted by Moriarty
Why? What is so fantasticly special about human life compared to anything else? What exactly is the importance of humanity?

Not a lot I can say, to that point of view, except to be thankfull that it is a rare viewpoint and to express it's total confliction with my own ethical code, ie I along with the vast majority of humankind would I'd venture to say, hold humanity as being more capable and special than other animal or plant life or bacteria.
Thats why we try to destroy harmfull bacteria, but in most countries, murderers are jailed rather than executed.
There is a difference and rightly so.

By the way this is the first time, I have ever in all my born days came across someone who thinks bacteria and human life should be treated the same.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Man
Not a lot I can say, to that point of view, except to be thankfull that it is a rare viewpoint and to express it's total confliction with my own ethical code, ie I along with the vast majority of humankind would I'd venture to say, hold humanity as being more capable and special than other animal or plant life or bacteria.

Fair enough, if thats what you believe. I wont argue with you. I see the value of a person for who they are, not the sum of their parts.

Originally posted by Man
Thats why we try to destroy harmfull bacteria, but in most countries, murderers are jailed rather than executed.
There is a difference and rightly so.

I think youre drawing too much on the example i gave. But heyho, if you feel like a rant go right ahead, i wont stop you.

Originally posted by Man
By the way this is the first time, I have ever in all my born days came across someone who thinks bacteria and human life should be treated the same.

Unfortunatly youll have to keep on looking for that person, i never said that. You seem to have got yourself confused between what you think i said and what i actually said somewhere along the line.

Amz

I think what Moriarty is trying to point out is that for the first number of weeks the thing growing inside a woman's womb is nothing but a cluster of multiplying cells. He's drawing the comparison to bacteria etc. not to trivialise human life but to point out the similarities in the early stages of creation.

Stem Cells as I'm sure you know are cells present in the early weeks of the development in the womb they can grow into bone, skin, eyes, anything! Therefore they have no specific purpose at that stage so cannot be called a baby!

D!ve^Bomb!

to all the people who insist that u haven't got a clue unless you have gone thru the 'experience' and that ur opinion doesn't hold merit...

Bo ll ox!!

i've never drank and drove but i know its wrong,
i've never cheated on my gf cos i know its wrong
i've never killed anyone cos i know its wrong!!

just because people haven't experienced certain things doesn't mean their opinions on those particulary things are invalid..

my gf is on the pill, and we use condoms every time to make sure that WE dont get pregnant, if it was to happen then we would think of it as an act of fait and take responsability,

if there are couples out there who dont use protection and fall pregnant then i'm sorry but grow up and take responsabilty for ur own actions.

The excuse ''We're not ready for a baby'', ''i cant carry this baby, i'm too young''

tough ****! u should have thought of that before u jumped into bed..

for all the people who believe that a women should choose wots right for her, well there are thousands of women who get pregnant, dont want the baby but know that its not the baby's fault that they got pregnant, so decide to do wots right and take responsabilty of there own actions..

abortion IS the easy way out, no matter how hellish it is afterwards,

Moriarty

What amz said ^^.


(I must invest in a brain that thinks at more than 5% efficency at the weekends)

Originally posted by Moriarty

I think youre drawing too much on the example i gave. But heyho, if you feel like a rant go right ahead, i wont stop you.

Rant-what Rant??
I simply could not accept what I read from your posts as an apparent frivolous attitude to human life without making a comment and asking questions.

Unfortunatly youll have to keep on looking for that person, i never said that. You seem to have got yourself confused between what you think i said and what i actually said somewhere along the line.

Well thank you for clarifying that you dont equate the rights of bacteria with the rights of human beings.

But then thats the written word for you, it can relay a lot less than the spoken sometimes and lead to unnecessary misunderstandings.
In common with newband I'm not a fan of abortion personally as a contraceptive tool.

Originally posted by Amz
I think what Moriarty is trying to point out is that for the first number of weeks the thing growing inside a woman's womb is nothing but a cluster of multiplying cells. He's drawing the comparison to bacteria etc. not to trivialise human life but to point out the similarities in the early stages of creation.

I take that point Amz ( now.... ) but just to point out where I am coming from on the issue, I'll say the following.
When this was discussed at lenght on the politics board some months ago, I discovered that one of my fundamental problems with abortion, is that those group of cells , if left alone have the potential to grow into what you and I and everyone else has become.
My problem with the concept of "un limited" abortion is that once that undisturbed entity is there....
To interfere with it, looks like we have the power to decide who or what fulfills their potential and who or what doesnt and I think thats a fundamentally dangerous concept.

The fact that it exists and legally in many countries as effectively an option which can be used as a method of contraception underlines the never ending need for education regarding the importance of more responsible pregnancy avoiding methods of contraception and condom use etc.
That is not an argument against a mothers right to choose, and especially not in the case of rape.
But it is an argument for responsibility where consentual sex is involved.

Amz

I really think you're trivialising a persons decision to get an abortion!

You make it sound like it's an easy decision for anyone to come to, when you call it a contraceptive tool!

I don't know anyone who would consider it as a method of contraception, you're gone way beyond contraception if you become pregnant. I don't think anyone has a right to say that it's used in such a way.

As a woman it is an issue that plays on my mind very often, getting pregnant is something a woman will think about before, after and even during sex! And although it may not be a priority at the time it's always there at the back of the mind. The what ifs? are something that can cause a lot of sleepless nights.

A very close friend of mine had a pregnancy scare recently something that really knocked her for six. Her boyfriend practically abandoned her at the time because he "didn't think it was that serious" He left her alone when she needed him the most, the sense of abandonment she felt was unreal and although he said later "you know I'd have been there for you if you had been pregnant" that wasn't good enough. Her mother was the only one who was really able to offer her support of any kind. It was this situation which higlighted the ease at which men can choose to become part of a pregnancy (after conception) or to completely abandon any kind of responsibilty. My friend was on the pill and they also use condoms. So people are naieve to think that if they get pregnant it's their own fault. A lot is left to chance in that sort of situation.

If she had been pregnant who's to "blame"?

It annoys me that people bandy about words like "fault" and "blame" without as if it's such a black and white thing!