The Mega **Management Company** thread

Paulw

Who are the directors of your management company? Ask them for the info on costs and tenders for services.

Why not bring your concerns up at your AGM?

quixlar

Does anyone know how the directors should be appointed. The complex where I live was recently handed over to the owners management company and to become a director you simply put your name forward. Anyone who put there name forward was automatically made a director. No votes. I can can not see any mention if this in the MUD act.

markpb

quixlar wrote: »

Does anyone know how the directors should be appointed. The complex where I live was recently handed over to the owners management company and to become a director you simply put your name forward. Anyone who put there name forward was automatically made a director. No votes. I can can not see any mention if this in the MUD act.

It's not covered by the MUD act because it's standard Company Law stuff. Anyone wishing to be made a director must be proposed and seconded by paid up members prior to (or at) a General Meeting. Their names must be read out and there must be a vote.

The only exception to this is that a director that resigns during the year can be replaced by appointment of the other directors. This doesn't require a vote but the persons term only lasts until the never General Meeting (or AGM, I'm not sure). At that meeting, they must resign but they can be re-nominated, seconded and voted for if people want.

I *think* that existing directors can decide to increase the number of directors during the year. These positions can be filled by appointment but, like above, they must resign at the next GM/AGM.

A free book by the ODCE: Company Law Handbook on Residential Property Owners' Management Companies and in particular, chapter 13 on directors might be useful to you. It's very dry but easy enough to read. You can pick up a free print copy from their office (Parnell Sq) if you call in.

quixlar

Cheers for that very helpful.

sickpuppy32

The director of my managment company is also the developer. I just found out he resigned two years ago and appointed residents as directors without their permission or knowledge. Is that even legal?

The_Conductor

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

The director of my managment company is also the developer. I just found out he resigned two years ago and appointed residents as directors without their permission or knowledge. Is that even legal?

No- its not legal, they have to agree to it, and sign documentation to this effect which would be lodged with the CRO. They need to contact the Companies Registration Office immediately and find out when, how and why this happened.

I'd suggest information gathering and then seeking professional advice- before taking any action.

sickpuppy32

updte on this. i complained to the companies office andthe director of corporate enforcement - they basically dont want to know - something about how they dont police the "internal rules" of the company!

I also found out today that the developer plans to charge the reisdents a "levy" to finsih the estate which will be charged via the managment company!

Lantus

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

updte on this. i complained to the companies office andthe director of corporate enforcement - they basically dont want to know - something about how they dont police the "internal rules" of the company!

I also found out today that the developer plans to charge the reisdents a "levy" to finsih the estate which will be charged via the managment company!

One of the thingsI have discovered is that the ODCE has almost no teeth and no real interest in management companies or any of the serious activites they get up to. As a result developers (part of the construction industry which is also virtually totally unregulated. Unless 'self regulation' can be taken serisouly.) can do as they please and use OMC's as vehicles to dodge tax, make money and avoid paying for things themselves, safe in the knowledge that the ODCE will never get involved, no one will never investigate and the residents just wont be able to avoid taking them to the high court to contest whatever it is they are up to.

Another sad day for Ireland as we fail to regulate an industry filled to the brim with the best manipulators, theives and sharp toothed businessmen the world has ever seen.

I have also complained to the ODCE regarding matters ranging from no AGM (which they proudly say on their website they will resolve immediatley.) false accounts, not providing a share certificate to households and accounting fraud. (charging for items on the budget which do not exist.) The ODCE have responded by posting a letter to me in the estate where the managemen company operates accusing me of not being a genuine resident and have asked for the share certificate as proof. (which in case you just missed was never issued.)

wonderful.....

Paulw

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

updte on this. i complained to the companies office andthe director of corporate enforcement - they basically dont want to know - something about how they dont police the "internal rules" of the company!

I also found out today that the developer plans to charge the reisdents a "levy" to finsih the estate which will be charged via the managment company!

If unit owners are now directors, it's time to change all bank accounts and update the CRO with your correct info.

I can't see how a developer can levy the management company.

Maybe it would be a good idea for the management company (YOU) to consult a solicitor on these matters.

markpb

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

I also found out today that the developer plans to charge the reisdents a "levy" to finsih the estate which will be charged via the managment company!

The Multi Unit development Act 2011 can help you in this case:

Section 18(2) forces the directors to show the budget to the owners at a General Meeting before it can be charged for. If 75% of the owners vote against the budget, the currents years budget remains in place.

Section 18(6) says that service charges must not be used to defray expense on matters which are or were the responsibility of the developer or builder of the multi-unit development concerned unless such expenditure is approved in writing by 75% of the members.

Section 7 also forces the developer to complete* the complex, even if the law forces them to transfer ownership of it to the management company. Some developers will say that they don't have to fix or snag it because it's not their any more - this is untrue. (*complete is a vague term used by planners and is not necessarily as complete as normal people would think.)

If the developer has given himself golden shares or majority votes or some other underhanded way of controlling the AGM, section 15(2) says that "one vote shall attach to each residential unit" and section 15(3) says that "a person who would be entitled to exercise such voting rights, shall not exercise such rights unless that person has applied for and has been granted an authorisation to exercise those rights by the Circuit Court" This means that, unless they own the majority of the apartments, they can not give themselves a majority vote without first asking the courts permission.

And lastly, in the off-chance that they've anointed themselves directors for life, section 16 (1) says that a director cannot be a director for more than 3 years without being re-elected by the members.

Daragh86

Hi all,

Firstly my apologies for butting into the middle of this thread. I've read a lot of this but can't get through all of it and haven't found the answers I was looking for so I was hoping somebody might be able to help with my particular case?

I bought an apartment in a 4 unit block almost a year ago. During the purchase of the property the management company wouldn't give a figure for management fees and my solicitor somehow came up with the figure of 160 per year and told me not to pay any more than this.

It gets slightly complicated now in that the estate agent who sold the apartment also owns the other 3 units in the block and is also the owner/director/secretary of the management company.

After I signed for the apartment the management company came looking for 600 euro and wouldn't provide any sort of breakdown or explination of where the money is spent. I asked for this information and got no reply. I again asked for this information in writing with no reply.

There was a leak in the apartment (sewerage from the apartment above) in early Decemeber of last year. I rang the management company but he ignored me for about two weeks (was left without electricity, heating, etc.). eventually he called the insurance company, put a claim through and it has since been paid out to the management company. I had a meeting with the director/owner/secretary (owner of the other 3 units) and he wanted to keep a portion of the money for himself and was trying to split the money very unfairly so I told him I wasn't accepting that amount and I wanted to see the claims assessors report and the paperwork from the insurance company and sort out how much money is allocated to what. He refused to show me this either. We also discussed management fees, again he refused to show a break down of the fees so I refused to pay the management fees (I don't mind how much they are, I just want to know that he isn't pocketing the money).

I sent him a letter stating I wanted to see the insurance paperwork and claims assessor report within 5 working days or I'll contact a solicitor. He hasn't contacted me and it's now about 2 weeks later.

I tried to contact the insurance company but they refuse to discuss the claim with me, saying they need permission from the management company eventhough my name is on the block insurance.

Any ideas on what to do??

Paulw

Daragh86 wrote: »

I bought an apartment in a 4 unit block almost a year ago. During the purchase of the property the management company wouldn't give a figure for management fees and my solicitor somehow came up with the figure of 160 per year and told me not to pay any more than this.

Any ideas on what to do??

WOW.

Sounds like your solicitor didn't give you great advice. Personally, I wouldn't have gone through with the purchase considering the lack of information.

Before purchase, did you research the management company? Check CRO listings, CRO documents, accounts, etc?

A management company for 4 units sounds slightly unusual. A management company needs a minimum of two directors. Who is the other director?

Sounds like a right mess, and I'm not sure where you would start.

athtrasna

You should also be a member of the management company and therefore entitled to accounts, and other information. Provided you have paid your management fee as per your contract (while not specifying an amount it should mention a percentage of the budget) you would be entitled to stand as a director.

When you refer to the Management Company who do you mean? Is there an external management agent?

Daragh86

If I knew then what I know now about management companies and fees I would have done things a whole lot better and would have definately chosen a better solicitor.


I have since researched the management company with the CRO and discovered his wife is the other director and his receptionist from his estate agent shop is the management company secretary. He has filled annual returns for the management company but is using an excemption for small businesses so that he only has to show the balance of the year ending and doesn't have to show transactions.

I've come to a dead end now.

I'm considering paying the management fee of 600 euro and demanding the insurance payment then and also demanding for the following year a clear breakdown of fees? I thought if I pay the management fee then they have no reason whatsoever to withhold an insurance payment. Would this be a good idea?

Daragh86

athtrasna wrote: »

You should also be a member of the management company and therefore entitled to accounts, and other information. Provided you have paid your management fee as per your contract (while not specifying an amount it should mention a percentage of the budget) you would be entitled to stand as a director.

When you refer to the Management Company who do you mean? Is there an external management agent?

I have asked in writing twice for management company accounts with no reply.

The building was built in 1903 and has since been divided into 4 apartments. So a management company was formed when the building was seperated into 4 units, this being the management company that is still there now.

athtrasna

If you withhold your fees you would be breaching your contract and the MC would be entitled to withhold insurance payouts to you. So paying your fee would be a good start. Once you do that you would be entitled to see the company accounts and budgets, you need to study these.

Daragh86

athtrasna wrote: »

If you withhold your fees you would be breaching your contract and the MC would be entitled to withhold insurance payouts to you. So paying your fee would be a good start. Once you do that you would be entitled to see the company accounts and budgets, you need to study these.

I understand withholding fees is a breach of contract, though is it not unreasonable to ask someone to pay these fees before you give evidence of what it's for? Or is that the way it works in this situation?

athtrasna

Are these the first fees? I don't remember seeing a budget when we got our first fee invoice..but that was several years ago. At invoicing now we always circulate the previous year's accounts and the next year's budget.

pawnacide

Daragh86 wrote: »

I have asked in writing twice for management company accounts with no reply.

The building was built in 1903 and has since been divided into 4 apartments. So a management company was formed when the building was seperated into 4 units, this being the management company that is still there now.

Who controls the management company at the moment, is there an agent appointed. You and the owners of the other 4 units should be in control of the company if there's no agent.

Lantus

4 apartments???

can you list what you have there? lifts? a central fire alarm? a common entrance or do you all have your own seperate entrances?

600 for 4 apartments is hard to judge as the fewer units the greater the sum each has to pay.

Is the wife (the 2nd director) a part of the estate agency company? If not then I dont think she can be standing as director. Typically unless your the developer you cannot be a director. The CRO records for the estate agency will reveal this.

As a resident you are entitiled to: -

1/An AGM; once every year. At this budgets are provided and voted on. As the EA owns 3 apartments though voting it in is a formaility for them.

2/The accounts on request. Both the the annual accounts and the day to day working books. The detailed breakdown of the service charge is an entitlement including where every cent gets spent and to who. Bills and contracts signed to third parties are your right to view.

As for insurance the OMC has a legal duty to pay out the insurance to what is was paid for. To do otherwise is fraud which I'm sure your solicitor can advise on. I'm sure the insurance company wouldn't be too happy either. However, as you didn't fill out the forms it's hard to say what was claimed for. There could well of been damage for another apartment.

I'd say the EA is a chancer and a practiced liar. He has called your bluff with the legal threat and is now safe in the knowledge you have no teeth or balls to back up what you say. Unless you back up your threats you'll be walked over. Otherwise pay up the fees and take what the big bully offers you from the insurance pay out. (PS - that loud noise you can hear next door is his new 60" plasma with surround sound!)

Tounge in cheek aside, you have to be very firm and not so fair with these people. Dont get fobbed off with petty excuses.

Daragh86

No lifts, no central fire alarm, nothing really. There's a basement apartment (which I own), it has its own entrance. Upstairs there are two apartments and an office which all share he one entrance and stairway. That's about all there is to look after - the stairs and the front door. The problem is that the estate agent who sold me the apartment is the owner of the office and two apartments above and he is also the management company and I suppose management company agent so he has it all tied up himself.

I think at this stage I am going to pay the management fee for this year so that I am legally in the right and then I'm going to hammer on with the insurance payment but I'm definately not paying out another years management fees without seeing a breakdown of where it's going.

RocknRollDoggy

we have our AGM in a few weeks and I was wondering, can the management company reveal who is paying and who isnt. I dont think its fair that people who dont pay can use the DATA PROTECTION ACT as a reason not to make their names public.

How Strange

The apartment numbers can be disclosed but not the owners names.

The_Conductor

Data Protection Act?
Management Companies are not prescribed bodies under the Act.

Any shareholder (member of the Management Company) is entitled to-

1. A list of all units which are uptodate on their payments
2. A list of all owners in the development
3. Properly audited accounts for the preceding year, along with an agenda for the AGM (to be sent in compliance with the rules for AGMs as prescribed by the Companies Act).
4. The opportunity to put a motion to the floor (normally under 'Any Other Business') directing the Management Company to chase delinquent apartment owners- you could even vote on what actions to take.
5. Only members in good stead are entitled to vote at the AGM (however all members can attend).

Get a copy of your lease- and go through it in detail- most of the actions of the Management Company and indeed schedules of payments etc will all be described in detail in it.

Paulw

How Strange wrote: »

The apartment numbers can be disclosed but not the owners names.

That is not true.

Under the Companies Act, each member (shareholder) is entitled to a list of shareholders, so this would be their name and their share number (or unit number).

Full accounts can be requested which can show who is paid up and who isn't.

The Data Protection Act cannot be used to stop people from knowing who has paid and who hasn't.

robodonkey

Publish a list of who HAS paid.

ur mentor

The following is on the data protection website under the FAQ section
1.10 Can Management Companies disclose to all members details of those property owners/members that have not paid service charges ?

In general, no. This is personal data of the members concerned and should not be disclosed without their consent or unless such disclosure is explicitly provided for in the memorandum and articles of association of the company as a condition of membership.


Each member is entitled to know who the other members are.. but not if they are in good standing.. However directors may know as they must do so that they can manage the company policies.

under MUDS you must get the insurance co details, the premium, the risks insured. You should be able to use this to get your insurance money by going directly to them.

Ms collie

There have been problems with non payment of management charges in my estate for ages, a mix of apartments and houses.

I have kept paying because my block insurance is included, bins etc. But we now have got to a situation where because ofgeneral non-payment, insurance cover is being cancelled becuase the property mangement company (KPM) hasn't enough funds to pay and this could affect individual mortgage arrangements.

I am not in arrears but I am getting worried. Has anyone else experience of this situation??

athtrasna

Have you been to recent AGMs? Have you seen the accounts? How bad is the debt situation? Have KPM engaged a debt collection service?

Lots of questions, and it's hard to know if this is being used to frighten people into paying or it's a general situation. AFAIK the management company can seek to have cover withdrawn from non paying units as a way to force the owners to pay (or face forfeiting the property to the bank) but I can't see how any directors could oversee a situation where cover is withdrawn from paying units.

Paulw

athtrasna wrote: »

I can't see how any directors could oversee a situation where cover is withdrawn from paying units.

That could happen if the development just doesn't have the funds to pay for insurance at all. A very bad situation to be in.