The Mega **Management Company** thread

Paulw

Faolchu wrote: »

anyone know what the deal is with smoking in hallways? my neighbour is kind enough to smoke as he walks in and out of the building each and every day. may not seem like a big problem but the smell comes into my apartment and as a non smoker I think its disgusting.

I doubt there are any rules/laws against smoking in the halls. While it is disgusting and the smoke/smell drifts in to your place, aside from you asking him not to, I doubt there is anything that can be done.

jd

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/ban_on_smoking_in_the_workplace_in_ireland.html

Common areas of buildings

The smoking ban also applies to common areas within buildings. This means for example that corridors, lobby areas and reception areas of buildings such as apartment blocks and hotels are also covered.

If you wish to make a complaint about smoking in a common area of say, an apartment block you should first contact the management company/residents association of the apartment block and try to reach an agreeable solution. If you wish to make a complaint about smoking in a hotel common area, you should first make your complaint to the hotel management. Remember, it is an offence to smoke in an area that has been designated 'non-smoking'.

If your complaint regarding smoking in a common area of a building has not been resolved, you should then telephone the Compliance Line at the Office of Tobacco Control for more advice - see 'Where to apply' below.

Paulw

Very useful to know.

I didn't realise it applied to private living areas, such as common corridors.

Chris_5339762

Technically balconies are part of the common areas (they arent covered by your leasehold), so technically you cant smoke on them. Is it however, accepted that people will smoke on them?

athtrasna

The key phrase in the quoted paragraphs from citizens information is within buildings. As balconies aren't within buildings and as there is no ban on smoking outdoors in public places, they wouldn't be covered.

Faolchu

nice one.

I figured it would be included under the work place part because cleaners & work men have to come in to do maintenance etc in the corridors

Icepick

What do Irish laws say about the principal-agent relationship?
Is it common to mutually sue the management company for the actions of companies they employed/hired?

Paulw

Icepick wrote: »

What do Irish laws say about the principal-agent relationship?
Is it common to mutually sue the management company for the actions of companies they employed/hired?

You are the management company. All unit owners are members of the management company.

The management company usually hire a management agent to do the day to day running. So, if the service isn't up to scratch the management company can take action against the management agent, depending on the contract in place for provision of services.

The management agent would then sub-contract work to special suppliers of services. You can, of course, have situations where the management company do directly employ sub-contractors to provide services.

Normally the management agent would contract the services on behalf of the management company (so the management company is invoiced directly by the contractor).

Does that help in any way??

Irish laws would be covered under company law, contract law, and the multi-units development act.

Icepick

Paulw wrote: »

You are the management company. All unit owners are members of the management company.

The management company usually hire a management agent to do the day to day running. So, if the service isn't up to scratch the management company can take action against the management agent, depending on the contract in place for provision of services.

The management agent would then sub-contract work to special suppliers of services. You can, of course, have situations where the management company do directly employ sub-contractors to provide services.

Normally the management agent would contract the services on behalf of the management company (so the management company is invoiced directly by the contractor).

Does that help in any way??

Irish laws would be covered under company law, contract law, and the multi-units development act.

What about renters?
They don't have a contract with the mgt company/agent.

Paulw

No, renters only have a contract with their landlord.

The landlord (unit owner) is a member of the management company. Only he can deal with the management company/management agent. The management company have no relationship/contract with any unit renter.

Icepick

Paulw wrote: »

No, renters only have a contract with their landlord.

The landlord (unit owner) is a member of the management company. Only he can deal with the management company/management agent. The management company have no relationship/contract with any unit renter.

Thanks, but that wasn't really my question.

Let's say a garbage truck damages your car.
Do you only go after the waste mgt company or the mgt company as well?

athtrasna

In that case your case is only against the Waste Company, same as you would if you had evidence that a waste truck collecting bins on a regular street. Why would the MC be responsible?

Paulw

Icepick wrote: »

Let's say a garbage truck damages your car.
Do you only go after the waste mgt company or the mgt company as well?

You would actually call your car insurance company and report the details to them. They would then go to the insurance company that covers the garbage truck to claim back the money.

The management company would never come in to such a situation.

Icepick

Again, that's not really my question. It wasn't the best example, because insurance companies would be involved.
I just want to know if the agent-principal relationship is established in Irish law and legal practice.
There may be reasons why want to hold the mgt company severally liable: company they employed is not likely to pay or hard to get hold of, you don't agree with their "services" and want to show the mgt company that they have to take responsibility for their actions too, etc.

Paulw

Icepick wrote: »

I just want to know if the agent-principal relationship is established in Irish law and legal practice.
There may be reasons why want to hold the mgt company severally liable: company they employed is not likely to pay or hard to get hold of, you don't agree with their "services" and want to show the mgt company that they have to take responsibility for their actions too, etc.

Agent-principal will depend on who the agent and principal are, and the contract/relationship involved.

As I've said, management company hire management agent. Agent sub-contracts work to provider.

So, who are you? What is your relationship to the management company? Are you a member of the management company (unit owners)? If you're not, and you are renting, then your only contract is with the unit owner (your landlord).

If you want to be more specific, and give an outline of a situation, we might be better able to help you.
The unit owner, can, through the directors of the management company, deal with the management agent, who can then deal with the sub-contractor.

Lantus

Long question.....

We are part of an estate where a management agent was employed almost from the get go 07' to undertake all duties on behalf of the directors, who are also still the developers.

The management agent upped and left Jan 2011 and told no one (not even the directors if they can be believed) The grounds fell into ruin and the residents undertook the landscaping to maintain it.

The current directors have no interest or involvement in the estate, there is no AGM, no service charge, no work being done etc. we suspect that apartment buildings are not even insured.

Whats the easiest way to remove the directors? Just ask them to leave? (They are almost impossible to contact.) or hold an EGM (and try to get a few hundred people to attend (51% of the vote) which seems highly problematic.

What happens to service charges that have never been paid (almost everyone is on average 1 or 2 years behind when the agent was running things several years ago.) some owners have never paid.

How do the new directors resolve this?

I know theres a wealth of knowledge and experience here so I am hoping you may some ideas on how best to proceed.

ur mentor

Lantus wrote: »

Long question.....

We are part of an estate where a management agent was employed almost from the get go 07' to undertake all duties on behalf of the directors, who are also still the developers.

The management agent upped and left Jan 2011 and told no one (not even the directors if they can be believed) The grounds fell into ruin and the residents undertook the landscaping to maintain it.

The current directors have no interest or involvement in the estate, there is no AGM, no service charge, no work being done etc. we suspect that apartment buildings are not even insured.

Whats the easiest way to remove the directors? Just ask them to leave? (They are almost impossible to contact.) or hold an EGM (and try to get a few hundred people to attend (51% of the vote) which seems highly problematic.

What happens to service charges that have never been paid (almost everyone is on average 1 or 2 years behind when the agent was running things several years ago.) some owners have never paid.

How do the new directors resolve this?

I know theres a wealth of knowledge and experience here so I am hoping you may some ideas on how best to proceed.

There are lots of things you can do. But the fastest and most pragmatic in my opinion is to go with EGM route.
Yes EGM is way to remove directors.
If you have memorandum and articles of association then they will recite how to call an EGM, You can get your ones at cro.ie... you will need the company number..or precise name of company to assist in this. They will cost about 2.50.
Assuming they are pretty standard articles then you will need to get 7 members to sign a resolution asking for an EGM with agenda to replace directors. Sent this to company sec...you can get address at cro.ie.
They can refuse to hold this of course but not likely if they want to be rid of the responsibility.
You will then need to make sure you get people willing to take on the role of directors.. At least 2 people and someone to be company sec. The auditor should be hugely helpful. They are officers of the company and will presumably be experienced and will want to act professionally.
Then the work begins..money collection, appointment of contractors, ?agent? etc.
If there is anyway you can contact the former agent then two questions he may be able to assist you with.
1. Who had the insurance policy, broker name or underwriter.
2. a list of owners and their addresses.
you will need these to get anywhere.
best of luck

Lantus

ur mentor wrote: »

There are lots of things you can do. But the fastest and most pragmatic in my opinion is to go with EGM route.
Yes EGM is way to remove directors.
If you have memorandum and articles of association then they will recite how to call an EGM, You can get your ones at cro.ie... you will need the company number..or precise name of company to assist in this. They will cost about 2.50.
Assuming they are pretty standard articles then you will need to get 7 members to sign a resolution asking for an EGM with agenda to replace directors. Sent this to company sec...you can get address at cro.ie.
They can refuse to hold this of course but not likely if they want to be rid of the responsibility.
You will then need to make sure you get people willing to take on the role of directors.. At least 2 people and someone to be company sec. The auditor should be hugely helpful. They are officers of the company and will presumably be experienced and will want to act professionally.
Then the work begins..money collection, appointment of contractors, ?agent? etc.
If there is anyway you can contact the former agent then two questions he may be able to assist you with.
1. Who had the insurance policy, broker name or underwriter.
2. a list of owners and their addresses.
you will need these to get anywhere.
best of luck

Thanks for your help but thats not strictly true. You need 10% of the members who can vote to call an EGM and then at the meeting you need 51% of said members to vote a director change.

If there is anyone who has gone down the EGm route I'd be much appreciated to hear about it.

Paulw

Lantus wrote: »

Thanks for your help but thats not strictly true. You need 10% of the members who can vote to call an EGM and then at the meeting you need 51% of said members to vote a director change.

If there is anyone who has gone down the EGm route I'd be much appreciated to hear about it.

Your management company articles of association will dictact what the quorum is. In many, it is just 7, and not 10%. But, each development is different.

In our development, we called an EGM and removed the developer as directors, or rather they resigned at the EGM.

We elected two of us as directors, and replaced the management agent on the spot.

Lantus

Paulw wrote: »

Your management company articles of association will dictact what the quorum is. In many, it is just 7, and not 10%. But, each development is different.

In our development, we called an EGM and removed the developer as directors, or rather they resigned at the EGM.

We elected two of us as directors, and replaced the management agent on the spot.

cheers, will check those out.

On a seperate note does anyone know where you stand if you are unemployed and either in recepit of benefits or not and just getting stamps and becoming a director. Yes technically you are a director of a company but it is a non salaried, voluntary and very part time role. Does anyone have any experience of this?

It would be a shame if unemployed folks who have shown an interest in becoming directors were unable to do so because they woud lose all entitlements just over a few hours of unpaid community work.

Paulw

Lantus wrote: »

On a seperate note does anyone know where you stand if you are unemployed and either in recepit of benefits or not and just getting stamps and becoming a director. Yes technically you are a director of a company but it is a non salaried, voluntary and very part time role. Does anyone have any experience of this?

As long as your management fees are paid in full, I can't see anything else stopping you being a director. A director of a management company is an unpaid position, so I can't see how that position would have any impact on your social welfare. But, you should check with the Social Welfare officer, just in case.

spirityboy

anyone know who you'd report a breach in fire regulations too? I've asked the Management agent and the directors of the management company to address the issue and 6 months later nothing has been done.

Paulw

spirityboy wrote: »

anyone know who you'd report a breach in fire regulations too?

The local fire safety officer, at the local fire station.

markpb

spirityboy wrote: »

anyone know who you'd report a breach in fire regulations too? I've asked the Management agent and teh directors of the management company to address the issue and 6 months later nothing has been done.

Be careful about doing this. If the breach is serious enough, the fire authority can order a mandatory evacuation of the building until the problem is fixed.

Also, if ownership of the common areas haven't been vested by the developer to the management company, the responsible person may be the developer.

spirityboy

the common areas have been handed over. what would happen to the people living there if there was an evacuation, would the MC be responsible to rehouse them/pay for accomidation til it was resolved as they have been aware of the problem and did nothing

markpb

spirityboy wrote: »

the common areas have been handed over. what would happen to the people living there if there was an evacuation, would the MC be responsible to rehouse them/pay for accomidation til it was resolved as they have been aware of the problem and did nothing

I don't think there is any specific legislation that covers it but you could probably sue them for negligence. Of course, you'd be sueing a company that you are a member of and pay towards the running costs of so that might not be a great course of action.

Your best bet is to get it resolved through the management company. Write the directors and shareholders a letter and send it by registered post. Mention in the letter that you'll be communicating your concerns to the fire authority if they haven't replied with a plan to fix the problems in fourteen days.

By the way, what is your concern?

spirityboy

I rather not say in an open forum, i know the management company read these posts

Zenga

spirityboy wrote: »

the common areas have been handed over. what would happen to the people living there if there was an evacuation, would the MC be responsible to rehouse them/pay for accomidation til it was resolved as they have been aware of the problem and did nothing

You do realise you are part of the management company and therefore would be causing yourself and all your fellow owners serious financial hardship let alone stress by going down this route??

Paulw

spirityboy wrote: »

I rather not say in an open forum, i know the management company read these posts

Management company or management agent? Hopefully you're aware of the major difference between them, considering that any unit owner is a member (part) of the management company, and so if the management company is in trouble, then you are also in trouble??

You should make sure to send a registered letter to the directors of the management company, and also to the management agent, to alert them of any issue you see.

Zenga

Lantus wrote: »

Thanks for your help but thats not strictly true. You need 10% of the members who can vote to call an EGM and then at the meeting you need 51% of said members to vote a director change.

If there is anyone who has gone down the EGm route I'd be much appreciated to hear about it.

I think the easiest way would be to get the directors to call an AGM?? If they have no interest in the developement they will be only too happy to resign and get out of the chair!

Then get as much information as possible from the previous managing agent. There is a certain amount of information that would be vital. The last audited accounts, a breakdown of the debtors and creditors would be ideal. There may have been bank accounts established for the developement, the auditor will have the details of these also.

Once you have that information the best thing you can do is get a proper managing agent if you can get one to take you on. They will have gone through this scenario before, no one else will have the experience or the time required to get this situation righted.