The Mega **Management Company** thread

spirityboy

Zenga wrote: »

You do realise you are part of the management company and therefore would be causing yourself and all your fellow owners serious financial hardship let alone stress by going down this route??

yes i'm aware of that, however how can teh indifivual owners be held responsible for the negligance of the builder and then the negligance of the directors when they failed to address the matter? i would think peoples safety would be paramount over cost but thats just me, i'm not talking about fire extingushers not being checked (though this also does not happen).

Paulw wrote: »

Management company or management agent? Hopefully you're aware of the major difference between them,

both, i've written to both asking them for an update and how they plan to resolve the mattter and asked have they informed all other owners in the estate or at least the blocks with the problem, wrote to the agent 4 months ago, when i got no response 4 weeks later I wrote to the directors who his also ignored my registered letter.

Paulw wrote: »

considering that any unit owner is a member (part) of the management company, and so if the management company is in trouble, then you are also in trouble??

yeah i know,but feel lives should anything happen would be more important

Paulw wrote: »

You should make sure to send a registered letter to the directors of the management company, and also to the management agent, to alert them of any issue you see.

the agent has been aware of the problem for over 6 months. the directors at least 3 months if not more as i wrote to them personally to inform them. hell i write to the agent on simple issues and a week later they havent even acknowledged the email, but if you pick up the phone they're all over it. allegedly.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Lantus

Zenga wrote: »

I think the easiest way would be to get the directors to call an AGM?? If they have no interest in the developement they will be only too happy to resign and get out of the chair!

Then get as much information as possible from the previous managing agent. There is a certain amount of information that would be vital. The last audited accounts, a breakdown of the debtors and creditors would be ideal. There may have been bank accounts established for the developement, the auditor will have the details of these also.

Once you have that information the best thing you can do is get a proper managing agent if you can get one to take you on. They will have gone through this scenario before, no one else will have the experience or the time required to get this situation righted.

The directors are all but unobtainable and have no interest in the estate but do have a financial stake in some unsold units that I suspect they want to maintain control of and not pay and fee's on. Hence why I believe the EGm route will be our only option at the end of the day.

The managment agent is a crook and walked away from the estate once they knew they couldn't get any more money fom it. We know they have fiddled the figures and charged outrageous sums whilst doing little or no work to justify it. The official CRO accounts dont marry with any budgets or figures the residents have been provided with at all.

The agent did all the accounts on behalf of the directors but we have asking for them for 4+months now and all they do is laugh (when we are lucky enough to get a hold of them). I suspect they have shredded them all by now. Remember only the directors are legally bound to keep accounts even if the agent does it on their behalf.

We have agreed as an estate that we dont want another agent. The cost is just too much in these time (at least double compared to if we did it ourselves) and there is already a significant debt level throughout the estate that has yet to be addressed.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Lantus

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thats not whinning, just a brief explanantion of where we are.

We have been developing a good RA and have a number of people in place who would be willing to become directors. We have written to the MC and asked them to resign and announce an AGM this year to replace directors or else we will 'eject' them via an EGM. There has been a lot of work done on the accounts and we have quotes for all the major bills we need to pay. Including a managment agent that I have been in talks with over the last few months. The costs is around double for them to do it. It may just be the size of the estate or our huge landscaping bill (almost 12 acres)

I'd be keen to know from people who have taken over as directors as to whether they got the working books from the previous crowd before they were appointed or just got on with it dealt with everything once on board.

cheers

edit: the previous charges were too expensive and resulted in massive non payment (unemployment is a big problem here like other places.) doing it ourselves and begging or borrowing would result in much cheaper fee's. We have even done the grass/landscaping this year ourselves and may even consider the same for next year as we are pretty damm good at it now and may need to to get out of debt and recover......what fun eh?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

athtrasna

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That is unlikely to be permissible under the terms of lease agreements. Lease agreements specify how fees are calculated.

irlrobins

Looking for other people's experience here.

Does your Management Company engage an auditor to provide a set of accounts each year? Is so, how much do they charge in fees?

Thanks
R

athtrasna

Yes it's a legal requirement that the company accounts are audited. Check out the presentation made to the Apartment Owners Network this summer.

http://www.apartmentowners.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Property-Management-Company-Presentation-11Aug11.pdf

irlrobins

Thank you, useful doc.

I'd be interested to hear what other people pay in terms of Auditor fees each year.

Paulw

Auditor fees should be similar across developments, since the cost is not based upon the number of units. It's just a fee for a service.

Just contact a few auditors and ask them what they would charge.

Zenga

Lantus wrote: »

The directors are all but unobtainable and have no interest in the estate but do have a financial stake in some unsold units that I suspect they want to maintain control of and not pay and fee's on. Hence why I believe the EGm route will be our only option at the end of the day.

The managment agent is a crook and walked away from the estate once they knew they couldn't get any more money fom it. We know they have fiddled the figures and charged outrageous sums whilst doing little or no work to justify it. The official CRO accounts dont marry with any budgets or figures the residents have been provided with at all.

The agent did all the accounts on behalf of the directors but we have asking for them for 4+months now and all they do is laugh (when we are lucky enough to get a hold of them). I suspect they have shredded them all by now. Remember only the directors are legally bound to keep accounts even if the agent does it on their behalf.

We have agreed as an estate that we dont want another agent. The cost is just too much in these time (at least double compared to if we did it ourselves) and there is already a significant debt level throughout the estate that has yet to be addressed.

I think its pretty simple. Under the terms of the MUD Bill An AGM must be held every year along with a budget meeting. Notifications must be sent 3 weeks in advance for the AGM & 2 weeks for the budget meeting. The common areas must be transferred within the next week and it also states that the voting rights must be allocated on a fair and equitable basis.

I think it is probably time to employ legal expertise, they can set out exactly the procedure to go about getting what you want. Asking for what you want is clearly not going to work at this stage.

It is a requirement under the MUD Act that you need to have a managing agent.

How big is the developement may I ask?? You honestly dont know what youre getting into if you think you can manage a large developement through volunteers.

What you have to realise is that the managing agent will carry out all those hard decisions you want to make but dont want to take the flak for. Imagine taking a call from someone who has got their apartment flooded by the apartment upstairs and you have to tell them that they have to pay the excess? Or that you wont unclamp someone because they broke the parking regulations? Or that you want your neighbour to pay up their management fees and wont give them a new key fob until its done? Will you instruct a solicitor to issue proceedings against John across the way?

How about all the other issues that you need to do. You will need to get a modern accountancy package to manage the accounts. You will need to draft & issue an invoice, statement, reminder, newsletter, AGM notification, Budget Meeting Notification, Fire Alarm, Water Pump Maintenance Notifications, Parking Permits to all owners in the developement.

You will need to need to organise the following services
- Waste Management
- Insurance
- Landscaping
- Lift Maintenance
- Fire Alarm Maintenance
- Auditor
- Automatic Gate
- Security Systems
- Access Systems
- Automatic Opening Vents
- Fire Extinguishers
- Solicitor
- Window Cleaning
- Gutter Cleaning
- Co Secreterial
- Car Parking Services
- General Repairs
- Water Pump Maintenance
- Project Contractors
- Caretaker Service

Someone will need to put the invoices for these into the accountancy package and pay them every month. They will also need to recieve payments by cheque / bank transfer, make the lodgements to the bank account on a daily basis. Then reconcile these back to the bank statement. Liase with the solicitor on a weekly basis to ensure that those who dont pay are followed up, attend court, make decisions regarding payment plans and monitor them to ensure that they are adhered to. Phone the people who arent.

Be available 24/7 to take phone calls when something happens (lift breaks down etc). Be available to answer queries regarding the invoice, budget and every other aspect of the developement.

Recieve insurance claims from residents, pass them onto the relevant insurance company and act as intermediary in the claim.

Chair and hold directors meetings on a regular basis, take minutes and ensure that actions are followed up before the next meeting.

Manage projects on site ensuring the work is carried out in a safe efficient manner taking into account that the book stops with you.

Liase with the auditor for 1 - 2 months providing accounts to trial balance stage and then answering the queries that arise.

Issue keys and fobs to people that request them.

Ensure that all contractors on site comply with Health & Safety regulations and that they have the appropiate insurance cover in place should anything happen whilst they are onsite.

Ensure that the Fire Alarm etc is serviced annually, ensure that the insurance policy is renewed on time to ensure compliance.

Deal with ROT Queries that will arise when owners want to sell up in the developement.

Deal with the general legal issues that can arise, personal injury, public liability, employers liability etc.


Thats about all I can think of right now...but there are an awful lot more things that a managing agent does aswell, it is simply not possible to do the job properly by volunteering but feel free to try.

Oh and by the way you will get abused left, right and centre along the way for all your trouble!!

Zenga

Paulw wrote: »

Auditor fees should be similar across developments, since the cost is not based upon the number of units. It's just a fee for a service.

Just contact a few auditors and ask them what they would charge.

Its not quite as simple as that, It can depend on how the detailed the accounts are broken down, how big the developement is a factor as the bigger the developement the more work that is required in testing and vetting the figures and the bigger developements are generally more complex

jd

Zenga wrote: »

It is a requirement under the MUD Act that you need to have a managing agent.

Where does it say that? Our development is managed by the directors, who are owners. Are you saying they now have to find an agent?

I note you said

My experience is that I work for a managing agent, Im a PAYE Employee no more no less.

.

markpb

Zenga wrote: »

It is a requirement under the MUD Act that you need to have a managing agent.

It is not a requirement to have an agent - they're a contractor to the management company just like any other. More than a few management companies in Ireland don't have agents.

Lantus

@Zenga, thanks for your input but just need to correct some innacurracies: -

1. You DONT need a management agent. There are plenty of estates run perfectly well by residents acting as directors. If an estate has the money and luxury to appoint an agent they by all means can. It's their choice.

2. Common areas were required to be transferred 6 months after the MUD act was passed in April. Which measn they should of already been done. Not 2 weeks after an AGM.

3. The 'list' you have mentioned is generic and certianly wouldn't apply to my estate which would have far fewer items on the list.


With the right people and organisation an estate can be run very well by residents acting as directors (I would seperate this slightly from purely a volunteer.)

Also, would love to see a managing agent that gives his mobile number out and says call me anytime 24/7!!!

Personally we have had a terrible time with our managing agent. It is another industry that is unregulated and requires no qualifications (say hello to all the chancers and cowboys rushing to start up company's) so prone to more than it's fair share of bad appls who are focused on profits above the well being of the estate and it's residents.

Zenga

jd wrote: »

Where does it say that? Our development is managed by the directors, who are owners. Are you saying they now have to find an agent?

I note you said

.

Yes from the legal interpetation I have seen yes you are now required to have a managing agent

And yes I do work for a managing agent its why I have an interest in the thread, I dont recieve anything other than a wage from the company and ive never tried to hide it! The reason I am interested in this thread is that there is an awful lot of misunderstanding around the role of a managing agent and a feeling that they are rip off merchants, whilst I cant speak for other agents I know the one I work for trys to do things for the best of the developement and I often get verbal abuse because of it. If I can inform people of the true picture it would make my job a lot easier.

jd

Zenga wrote: »

Yes from the legal interpetation I have seen yes you are now required to have a managing agent

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/MUDSAct2011.pdf/Files/MUDSAct2011.pdf

Could you point out the relevant section referred to by the interpretation you've seen?

Zenga

Lantus wrote: »

@Zenga, thanks for your input but just need to correct some innacurracies: -

1. You DONT need a management agent. There are plenty of estates run perfectly well by residents acting as directors. If an estate has the money and luxury to appoint an agent they by all means can. It's their choice.

2. Common areas were required to be transferred 6 months after the MUD act was passed in April. Which measn they should of already been done. Not 2 weeks after an AGM.

3. The 'list' you have mentioned is generic and certianly wouldn't apply to my estate which would have far fewer items on the list.


With the right people and organisation an estate can be run very well by residents acting as directors (I would seperate this slightly from purely a volunteer.)

Also, would love to see a managing agent that gives his mobile number out and says call me anytime 24/7!!!

Personally we have had a terrible time with our managing agent. It is another industry that is unregulated and requires no qualifications (say hello to all the chancers and cowboys rushing to start up company's) so prone to more than it's fair share of bad appls who are focused on profits above the well being of the estate and it's residents.

1. I am open to interpetation on this. But we had legal report drawn up by a solicitor on the act and that was the included in their report. I will take a look at it agin tomorrow to double check.

2. You are correct, however the deadline is Sept 30th so it has not passed. Furthermore it is not as simple as that, the developement must be 80% sold for this to take effect and I believe there is an 18 month grace period from the time of the deadline before the common areas are required by law to be transferred. Again feel free to check this out with your solicitor if you wish.

3. The list is drawn up from memory while I was typing, generally what happens is you dont actually realise right now what will be required of you. If you have a small developement it may be possible but be careful you dont bite off more than you can chew!

Residents act as directors whether there is a managing agent involved or not, the difference is that the managing agent do the day to day work and carry out the directors instructions.

I can say honestly hand on my heart that my employer has an emergency 24 hour 7 days a week number. It is listed on the voicemail we use on the office number outside office numbers and there is nearly always a couple of calls every weekend on it which are either resolved immediatly by the person on the end of the phone or are dealt with when back in the office depending on the situation.

As far as Im aware the MUD bill does regulate them a bit more. I understand youve had a bad time, it is probably the most important decision you will make as a director, as a bad one can put you seriously in the red and there are a lot of cowboys out there. But if you have a pro active clued in board of directors this simply wont happen. Look for references if you do go to the market for a managing agent and youll soon spot the good from the bad.

Zenga

jd wrote: »

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/MUDSAct2011.pdf/Files/MUDSAct2011.pdf

Could you point out the relevant section referred to by the interpretation you've seen?

Please see above post.

Im not a solicitor so I wouldnt be qualified to say. We had a solicitor read through the act and draw up the main points in lay mans terms and it was included in that.

markpb

Zenga wrote: »

1. I am open to interpetation on this. But we had legal report drawn up by a solicitor on the act and that was the included in their report. I will take a look at it agin tomorrow to double check.

I think you really should - some of the things you're saying are just plain wrong. I was involved in discussions with the LRC prior to their report being written and with the DoJ-CLR all the way through the framing and passing of the legislation and this is the first I've heard about the act making *any* reference to managing agents.

In reality, the law makes no mention of them at all because a second piece of legislation that is still pending (the bill that will give statutory authority to the NPSRA) deals specifically with managing agents. This one only deals with the relationship between the developer, the management company and the owners.

There is no 18 month waiver for developers, there is no requirement to have a managing agent and there is no additional regulation for agents in this bill. You are correct on other points. And I agree with you that for some developments, having an agent on call 24/7 is very necessary - it depends on the size of the estate and the make-up of the board. Management companies are like snowflakes - everyone is different and unique

Zenga

markpb wrote: »

I think you really should - some of the things you're saying are just plain wrong. I was involved in discussions with the LRC prior to their report being written and with the DoJ-CLR all the way through the framing and passing of the legislation and this is the first I've heard about the act making *any* reference to managing agents. In reality, the law makes no mention of them at all because a second piece of legislation that is still pending (the bill that will give statutory authority to the NPSRA) deals specifically with managing agents. This one only deals with the relationship between the developer, the management company and the owners.

Again I may have picked this up wrong as its not really my role in the company but I will check this out for you tomorrow.

Paulw

Zenga wrote: »

1. I am open to interpetation on this. But we had legal report drawn up by a solicitor on the act and that was the included in their report. I will take a look at it agin tomorrow to double check.

I've just re-read the whole act, and can see nothing at all in it that makes a legal requirement to have an agent. I think it would be a foolish thing to have such. Many development run just fine without an agent, and for them it would be a totally unnecessary expense.

Zenga wrote: »

2. You are correct, however the deadline is Sept 30th so it has not passed. Furthermore it is not as simple as that, the developement must be 80% sold for this to take effect and I believe there is an 18 month grace period from the time of the deadline before the common areas are required by law to be transferred. Again feel free to check this out with your solicitor if you wish.

Correct there. The deadline is 30th Sept 2011, once the development is over 80% sold. The grace period only applied to developments built within a certain time period, so in most cases, this wouldn't apply

Zenga wrote: »

I can say honestly hand on my heart that my employer has an emergency 24 hour 7 days a week number.

Our management agent offers the same service, and it is used and it is replied to.

Zenga wrote: »

As far as Im aware the MUD bill does regulate them a bit more.

Nope, there is nothing in the MUD Act that regulates management agents.

Maybe you should take a little time and actually read the act itself.

Zenga

Paulw wrote: »

I've just re-read the whole act, and can see nothing at all in it that makes a legal requirement to have an agent. I think it would be a foolish thing to have such. Many development run just fine without an agent, and for them it would be a totally unnecessary expense.



Correct there. The deadline is 30th Sept 2011, once the development is over 80% sold. The grace period only applied to developments built within a certain time period, so in most cases, this wouldn't apply



Our management agent offers the same service, and it is used and it is replied to.



Nope, there is nothing in the MUD Act that regulates management agents.

Maybe you should take a little time and actually read the act itself.

You appear to think that Im somehow representing a managing agent in some form or other. Just again so Im clear Im not! I am simply sick of having people chewing my ear off over something ridiculous and wanted to provide another perspective. The Act is a long legal document which I have 0% interest in reading. Im not a solicitor nor do I have any legal responsibility in the role i hold down in my current job and I dont have any intensions of taking on any either!

Paulw

Zenga wrote: »

You appear to think that Im somehow representing a managing agent in some form or other. Just again so Im clear Im not!

Zenga wrote:

My experience is that I work for a managing agent, Im a PAYE Employee no more no less.

So, did you or did you not say that? If you work for a managing agent, then you are (in some form) representing one.

Zenga wrote: »

I am simply sick of having people chewing my ear off over something ridiculous and wanted to provide another perspective.

And I, as I'm sure many others, are sick of people spouting false facts. If you're going to say something is in an Act, you should at least have read the thing. It's not THAT long, and only takes a short while to read. Of course, that's the parts that are currently in law, and some parts of the bill have not become law yet.

Zenga wrote: »

Im not a solicitor nor do I have any legal responsibility in the role i hold down in my current job and I dont have any intensions of taking on any either!

I'm no solicitor either, but I live in a managed development, so make sure to actually read the things that effect me.

If you're not sure of something, then please refrain from stating that what you are not sure of is in an Act that you haven't even read. :rolleyes:

Zenga

Paulw wrote: »

So, did you or did you not say that? If you work for a managing agent, then you are (in some form) representing one.




And I, as I'm sure many others, are sick of people spouting false facts. If you're going to say something is in an Act, you should at least have read the thing. It's not THAT long, and only takes a short while to read. Of course, that's the parts that are currently in law, and some parts of the bill have not become law yet.



I'm no solicitor either, but I live in a managed development, so make sure to actually read the things that effect me.

If you're not sure of something, then please refrain from stating that what you are not sure of is in an Act that you haven't even read. :rolleyes:

Yes I work for a managing agent. I get a wage like anyone else. Are you trying to say that someone working for AIB for example posts an opinion on the banking sector on boards.ie is somehow representing the company??

I didnt spout false facts as you say, It appears I was mistaken, I did in all my posts state that I could be wrong and that it was my interpetation, and on getting the differing opinions I conceded i may be wrong and said I would double check...what more do you want 20 lashings or something get real.

Look stop talking crap you are not a solicitor either and i wouldnt be suprised if you yourself have interpeted some of the 30 odd pages incorrectly.

And finally more to the point, please get back on topic

Paulw

Zenga wrote: »

Yes I work for a managing agent.

Thanks for the clarification.

Zenga wrote: »

Look stop talking crap you are not a solicitor either and i wouldnt be suprised if you yourself have interpeted some of the 30 odd pages incorrectly.

Sorry, I'm not talking crap. You don't need to be a solicitor to read the document. It's written in English. :eek: I, and others, have simply corrected your errors, that there is no provision at all in the Act that a management agent is a legal requirement, nor is there any management agent regulation in the act.

As for being on topic, the MUD Act is very much on topic and important to those who live in managed development, and those who are responsible for it's day to day running, such as a management agent.

Zenga

Paulw wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification.



Sorry, I'm not talking crap. You don't need to be a solicitor to read the document. It's written in English. :eek: I, and others, have simply corrected your errors, that there is no provision at all in the Act that a management agent is a legal requirement, nor is there any management agent regulation in the act.

As for being on topic, the MUD Act is very much on topic and important to those who live in managed development, and those who are responsible for it's day to day running, such as a management agent.

For gods sake what are you on about, ive stated this at the start its not like some hidden secret.

I know its written in english, but that doesnt mean that you can interpet it correctly.

Can you please re read my posts. I clearly say im open to interpetation before my post, I also state I will check it out.


No staying on topic would have been moving on from the last few posts which have been about you trying to undermine the opinions I stated which has already been done.

Lantus

Zenga wrote: »

1. I am open to interpetation on this. But we had legal report drawn up by a solicitor on the act and that was the included in their report. I will take a look at it agin tomorrow to double check.

2. You are correct, however the deadline is Sept 30th so it has not passed. Furthermore it is not as simple as that, the developement must be 80% sold for this to take effect and I believe there is an 18 month grace period from the time of the deadline before the common areas are required by law to be transferred. Again feel free to check this out with your solicitor if you wish.

3. The list is drawn up from memory while I was typing, generally what happens is you dont actually realise right now what will be required of you. If you have a small developement it may be possible but be careful you dont bite off more than you can chew!

Residents act as directors whether there is a managing agent involved or not, the difference is that the managing agent do the day to day work and carry out the directors instructions.

I can say honestly hand on my heart that my employer has an emergency 24 hour 7 days a week number. It is listed on the voicemail we use on the office number outside office numbers and there is nearly always a couple of calls every weekend on it which are either resolved immediatly by the person on the end of the phone or are dealt with when back in the office depending on the situation.

As far as Im aware the MUD bill does regulate them a bit more. I understand youve had a bad time, it is probably the most important decision you will make as a director, as a bad one can put you seriously in the red and there are a lot of cowboys out there. But if you have a pro active clued in board of directors this simply wont happen. Look for references if you do go to the market for a managing agent and youll soon spot the good from the bad.

I would take what your soliciter says with an almighty pinch of the white stuff.

There is no 18 month grace period for transfer of common areas. In already complete estates they have 6 months from the bill commencement. No longer or legal action can be taken.

There is no 'legal' framework for management agents, they are a business and not specifically covered by the MUD act. There is no mention of them because they are an entirely optional element. The legal relationship is between the unit owner, the management company and the developer. The extremely useful guide by the ODCE has some elements on agents to help clarify what they are. Typically it stresses the non existent legal framework and the importance of not really trusting them that much. They are contractors engaged to do work, thats all.

http://www.odce.ie/en/media_general_publications_article.aspx?article=3df9bf5d-21af-4ffe-8dd6-16566e833fab


"[FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][FONT=Z@R3C.tmp]In the ODCE’s view, this means that the directors of a management

company who decide that they wish for its accounting records to be kept and preserved by their managing agent should carefully agree the basis upon which the managing agent is to do so. They should also monitor the managing agent’s discharge of that task (if necessary by exercising their statutory right to inspect the [FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][FONT=Z@R3C.tmp]accounting records) to ensure that it is satisfactory. Furthermore, it is certainly good practice for the directors to review the issue carefully with the company’s statutory auditors in the context of each annual audit and to address any shortcomings about which the auditors may have concerns."[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][FONT=Z@R3C.tmp][FONT=Z@R3C.tmp]basically tread carefully as they might just decide to shred your accounts and walk away....

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M007

Does anyone have a list of the info that a Management Company now needs to provide in light of the MUD act coming into operation.

My management company use an agent and they are the most imcompetent to say the least. They appear to renew the cleaning contracts etc without any tenders and surely there are some savings to be had with same nowadays. I am concerned that the management company agents are just simply counting the pennies they rake in as apart from the organisation of the bins I see nothing of benefit from the vast sums they receive from the tenants.

Any help out there?