DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

bkehoe

UCB Ireland appeared on the South East trial earlier in the week in DAB+.

watty

Bit rate? for the AAC /DAB+?


They can't turn off the VHF Band III in Ireland till at least Nov/Dec 2012. It could even be Jan/Feb 2013 or Sept 2012, but I doubt it.

lawhec

There's no way I see VHF Band III TV in the Republic turned off next month. It might be considered if a parallel UHF service had been running from the six VHF sites now for at least a couple of years (former VHF relay stations that transferred RTÉ1 & 2 to UHF in the 90's & early 2000's had about a year of dual illumination) and plenty of notice was given e.g. six months. Also, too late "in the day" when analogue terrestrial television broadcasting is about to reach its end of life to be making any serious network changes. Only Truskmore has any serious effect on DAB bandwidth & coverage in Northern Ireland, Maghera, Mt. Leinster, Mullaghanish are of no concern and Kippure is of little concern except possibly on some block 10 DAB frequencies in parts of N.I. around Co. Down and possibly Co. Antrim. In theory, if Monaghan VHF could be transferred to UHF, Truskmore could in theory shift RTÉ 1 from Channel I to D, but the cost of doing so for now less than a handful of years left of use, plus some viewers aerials may not be optimised for the opposite end of Band III - not to mention relays needing to be retuned etc. Such an idea might have been viable at the start of last decade, but not now.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

They can't turn off the VHF Band III in Ireland till at least Nov/Dec 2012. It could even be Jan/Feb 2013 or Sept 2012, but I doubt it.

Both the Dept of Comms and ComReg have said recently that analogue terrestrial television will be switched-off in Quarter 4 of 2012, in conjunction with switch over in Northern Ireland (MoU ASO coordination).

The BAI in a press report have been more specific and said October 2012.

Antenna

The Cush wrote: »

Both the Dept of Comms and ComReg have said recently that analogue terrestrial television will be switched-off in Quarter 4 of 2012, in conjunction with switch over in Northern Ireland (MoU ASO coordination).

The BAI in a press report have been more specific and said October 2012.

Its unrealistic that the republic will switch-off in conjunction with NI for a number of reasons.
If both sides of the border were using the same DTT system it would be a lot easier to propose this. But they are not. The republic are using a DTT system, where even today, the majority of TVs sold in the republic are incompatible with (without a STB).

One fear is that a substantial number of viewers south of the border will do nothing about getting (the MPEG4 STBs for) Irish DTT and purely have the UK channels after ASO - by means of the 1000s of TVs capable of MPEG2 (but not MPEG4) in the counties just south of the border.
Multi TV households in border counties might get a MPEG4 STB for just one TV, and have purely UK channels on other TVs (if they have MPEG2 but not MPEG4). - all of this could be a loss of viewers for the Irish channels for the short to medium term.


The republic has completely ended medium-wave radio transmission, yet it still continues in NI.
I am afraid it will be the other way around with analogue TV!

bkehoe

48k stereo, though I've seen it at 32k mono for a while as well. S.E. Radio has changed to 60k stereo too.

watty

watty wrote: »

Bit rate? for the AAC /DAB+?


They can't turn off the VHF Band III in Ireland till at least Nov/Dec 2012. It could even be Jan/Feb 2013 or Sept 2012, but I doubt it.

The Cush wrote: »

Both the Dept of Comms and ComReg have said recently that analogue terrestrial television will be switched-off in Quarter 4 of 2012, in conjunction with switch over in Northern Ireland (MoU ASO coordination).

The BAI in a press report have been more specific and said October 2012.

Likely 31st October 2012 then Or for practical purposes 1st Nov 2012.

Is the press Report on their site? I like to update the other place

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Is the press Report on their site? I like to update the other place

It wasn't a press release, it was the article in last Sunday's Sunday Business Post. It's not official (unless it was mentioned during the interview) but it's the closest we've got to a specific date in Q4 2012. The Q4 2012 date does of course come from an official source.

BAI wants new powers on digital TV

Sunday, September 19, 2010 - By Catherine O’Mahony

The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI) wants statutory powers to compel RTE, if necessary, to enter into a mediation process with any future application to run a commercial Digital Terrestial Television (DTT) service.

The legislation granting such powers would need to be in place by mid-2011 which is when the BAI said it may restart the search for a commercial DTT operator after the first contract negotiations failed earlier this year.

BAI chairman Bob Collins said legislative weakness was partly to blame for the collapse of the unusually protracted contract negotiations.

DTT will replace the analogue television signal, on which around one million people receive TV.

The analogue signal will be switched off in October 2012.
...

The Cush

Antenna wrote: »

Its unrealistic that the republic will switch-off in conjunction with NI for a number of reasons.
If both sides of the border were using the same DTT system it would be a lot easier to propose this. But they are not. The republic are using a DTT system, where even today, the majority of TVs sold in the republic are incompatible with (without a STB).

What do you suggest we do? Wait for a few years until everyone has upgraded their TVs to MPEG-4?

I think switchoff (North and South) will affect viewers on both sides of the border equally. I assume there are viewers in NI that use analogue only or MPEG-2 TVs now will have to upgrade to receive freeview, freeview-HD or the Irish MPEG-4 channels. Should NI ASO be delayed to allow these viewers time to upgrade their equipment?

Also I suspect we will see viewers south of the border upgrading for freeview-HD overspill.

The most important thing to remember about the analogue switchoff is that this is about the Digital Dividend and the benefits each country can reap from the sale of the released spectrum, as quickly as possible, in these economically challenged times. It's not going to be delayed.

Antenna wrote: »

One fear is that a substantial number of viewers south of the border will do nothing about getting (the MPEG4 STBs for) Irish DTT and purely have the UK channels after ASO - by means of the 1000s of TVs capable of MPEG2 (but not MPEG4) in the counties just south of the border.
Multi TV households in border counties might get a MPEG4 STB for just one TV, and have purely UK channels on other TVs (if they have MPEG2 but not MPEG4). - all of this could be a loss of viewers for the Irish channels for the short to medium term.

I have no fear that people will upgrade, watty posted hereabouts recently the viewing figures for the Irish and UK terrestrial channels vs. pay tv and based on that I can't see the majority of border viewers deciding not to upgrade (if only for the odd soccer international, GAA match, Late Late Show etc. etc.). Consider the lengths people around the country went to in the past to receive the UK terrestrial channels can't see them missing out on their own channels for the sake of a cheap STB.

Antenna wrote: »

The republic has completely ended medium-wave radio transmission, yet it still continues in NI.
I am afraid it will be the other way around with analogue TV!

The difference between analogue tv and medium-wave radio is that the tv frequencies are to be reused for DTT both sides of the border and others sold off, no big rush for the medium-wave "digital-dividend" frequencies.

Analogue TV will be gone by the end of 2012. Transition planning meetings have been underway between the two Governments since the MoU was signed in Feb.

This from ComReg

On Thursday 29 July 2010, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources , announced that analogue terrestrial television will be switched-off in the State in Quarter 4 of 2012, in conjunction with analogue switchover in Northern Ireland.

As it provides clarity on the DTT process in Ireland and the corresponding switch-off of analogue terrestrial television services, this announcement is of significance in many respects. The switch-off of analogue terrestrial services will release valuable radio spectrum that can be used for new and innovative electronic communications services and additional/enhanced television services. This freeing up of frequencies as a result of more efficient spectrum-use through the switchover from analogue to DTT is commonly known as the “Digital Dividend.”

Peter Henderson

The republic has completely ended medium-wave radio transmission, yet it still continues in NI.

Medium wave radio never annoyed any one, unlike VHF TV from the ROI which results in DAB radio up here being rubbish compared with the rest of the UK.

and still no Digital One in the province after all this time.

I still think it should be feesible to carry out some tests in order to see if there really is a problem with a 10 kw DAB transmitter on Divis causing interference with either Kippure or Truskmore.

If can receive ziltch from the DAB tests from Clermont Cairn when analogue radio/tv is near perfect from the same site then surely DAB from Divis isn't going to cause any problems with VHF TV transmitters even further away ?

Personally, I think the whole interference thing is overplayed. No one knows what the effect will be until they do some tests. In the meantime, DAB listeners up here are going to have to put up with a mediocre choice of stations until at least 2012. GRRRRRRR.

Hopefully, Digital One have plans to start broadcasting in the province immidiatly the ROI's offending VHF transmitters close down but is this even gauranteed ? At the very least, Ofcom should be working to ensure this happens when the time comes. I wouldn't be so sure though. Last time I checked with Digital One they told me they hadn't even a licemce to brodacast to NI.

The Cush

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Hopefully, Digital One have plans to start broadcasting in the province immidiatly the ROI's offending VHF transmitters close down but is this even gauranteed ? At the very least, Ofcom should be working to ensure this happens when the time comes. I wouldn't be so sure though. Last time I checked with Digital One they told me they hadn't even a licemce to brodacast to NI.

Digital One's licence was awarded for the island of Britain only back in 1998 and when spectrum becomes available it would have to be advertised and awarded by Ofcom. Digital One would have no automatic right to the spectrum.

Peter Henderson

The Cush wrote: »

Digital One's licence was awarded for the island of Britain only back in 1998 and when spectrum becomes available it would have to be advertised and awarded by Ofcom. Digital One would have no automatic right to the spectrum.

That's what I'm afraid of Cush.

Even when the situation improves spectrum wise it still mightn't make any difference.

Although, if this were to happen, it would be nice if some of the ROI stations were to take up the free space in the North.

watty

A lot of those are owned by UTV

Sam the Aerialman

watty wrote: »

A lot of those are owned by UTV

Very true - UTV are a big player in DAB along with Bauer. Infact the 12D block is now Bauer Northern Ireland. I note not one single application for mux usage is in Northern Ireland.

david23

The Cush wrote: »

Digital One's licence was awarded for the island of Britain only back in 1998 and when spectrum becomes available it would have to be advertised and awarded by Ofcom. Digital One would have no automatic right to the spectrum.

That isn't quite correct - the UK's Digital Economy Act (which came into force on 8th June 2010) gives Ofcom the powers to vary the coverage areas of current DAB multiplex licences without the need for further advertisements.

If Digital One (owned by Arqiva) makes an application to extend their licensed coverage area to Northern Ireland, Ofcom will be able to grant this without needing a new advertisement under the provisions of the new Act. Clearly there are some technical constraints as already discussed on this thread but Digital One could probably transmit on low power to Greater Belfast & Antrim until October 2012 (assuming that is the date of ROI analogue TV switch-off).

The Cush

david23 wrote: »

That isn't quite correct - the UK's Digital Economy Act (which came into force on 8th June 2010) gives Ofcom the powers to vary the coverage areas of current DAB multiplex licences without the need for further advertisements.

OK thanks for that david23. I was quoting from an earlier document.

@ Peter Henderson - You may get you wish yet, 2013 maybe

Peter Henderson

But will Digital One feel the need to make an application ? That's what I'm worried about.

and we still can't get Abslute (formerly Virgin) on DAB in the province, despite there being ample opportunity for the station to take up a slot when some space became available over the last few years (The closure of 3C and Primetime Radio for example).

It wont surprise me if we're still waiting for Absolute Radio and Digital One to arrive here 3 years from now. This is something the local Ofcom committee along with Comreg need to sort out so that this situation wont arise, but I'm not optomistic.

david23

Peter Henderson wrote: »

But will Digital One feel the need to make an application ? That's what I'm worried about.

It wont surprise me if we're still waiting for Absolute Radio and Digital One to arrive here 3 years from now. This is something the local Ofcom committee along with Comreg need to sort out so that this situation wont arise, but I'm not optomistic.

Ofcom have just published a statement on Digital One coverage - there will be no requirement for them to extend their coverage further as part of their licence extension process (the licence is up for renewal in 2011).

It's a commercial decision for Digital One but I would expect them to choose to extend their coverage to NI when they get the chance.

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/radiomux/statement

lawhec

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Medium wave radio never annoyed any one, unlike VHF TV from the ROI which results in DAB radio up here being rubbish compared with the rest of the UK.

The VHF TV transmitters used by RTÉ were there first. The five main VHF TV sites, including Truskmore, will have been broadcasting TV in that band now coming close to five decades. In many other countries in Europe and beyond that still broadcast analogue television, Band III is still used widely. The UK made the decision in the 1980's when it shut down its 405 line network to use the vacated bandwidth for PMR, trunked radio services, point-to-point links etc. in a band internationally allocated for broadcasting, unlike France whom when they closed their 819 line service in the same decade kept the band for broadcasting (Canal +) a 625 line service in SECAM.

The situation with DAB in Northern Ireland is similar to that in southern and eastern parts of England, where DAB broadcasts must operate under directional and/or power restrictions to protect allocations in mainland Europe. With the full conversion to DTT in some European countries to UHF only, some of these restrictions have been eased but still exist at others. The original DAB allocations in the UK (11B-12D) didn't contrary to popular belief use frequencies originally used for 405 line TV services in the UK (these stopped at 216MHz, as opposed to 230MHz in most of the rest of Europe), and the allocations only expanded back to 10B because gaps were found in the band that were not occupied by PMR. The UK basically blocked itself from finding additional spectrum for DAB services beyond this (though a couple of Block 5 frequencies are allocated for East Anglia and the Channel Islands) because of the decision taken in the 1980's, whereas in the rest of Europe DAB/DMB/DAB+ etc. transmissions can be squeezed in different parts of the band where it can allow itself. The only way the UK can have the same elbow room without possible interference issues would be to reallocate some or all PMR services to a different part of the radio spectrum (at a fair cost to users presumably).

I'm not entirely sure of the extent PMR is used in Northern Ireland but I'd say some use is severely restricted in terms of frequency availability. I know NIR (did?) use it.

DAB in Northern Ireland will only have the possibility to expand if (a) someone actually wants to win a licence to manage a multiplex here, and firms are not exactly queuing up to do this (witness 4radio), (b) stations themselves actually want to come on to broadcast on the platform, which still isn't particularly cheap nor popular enough for anything more that specialist services with buckets of cash behind them (e.g. Premier Radio, and they're on MW in London), automated and cheaply run brand stations (e.g. Heat) or established services who used DAB as FM licence extenders, as many others have come and gone and some today are struggling baldy. So once VHF analogue television is switched off for the final time in the Republic, don't necessarily expect a rush of additional DAB choice.

watty

DAB is losing money in UK. The audience figure are faked too by including people with DAB radio listening on FM or on DTT, Satellite or Internet. They scuppered themselves with lack of bandwidth and not enough coverage/power leading to a poor quality service compared to FM.

bkehoe

The Waterford city TX is back on the air now as part of a SFN on 9B and although it's at lower power than when it was last on in April & May, it's providing quite a useful fill-in for areas of the city that had poor reception up to now.

dowtchaboy

bkehoe wrote: »

The Waterford city TX is back on the air now as part of a SFN on 9B and although it's at lower power than when it was last on in April & May, it's providing quite a useful fill-in for areas of the city that had poor reception up to now.

loads of cheapo DAB receivers in Tesco Waterford Shopping Centre bargain bin section - some with iPod socket and one with SD card player too. Nobody seems to know or care about DAB.

watty

But unless they do DAB+, they might be a bad idea.

kittytwister

I have a Sensia DAB internet radio...not great for receiving FM but brilliant internet radio. Have tried to get a DAB signal but failed to date. Was out for a walk recently on the Blackstairs and there is a DAB multiplex being broadcast from an aerial just over Glynn village. This was confirmed to me by the person working on the site that they were an independent group and broadcast local radio stations as well as R. nova and Dublins Country mix but not RTE...can anyone confirm if RTE broadcast DAB from Mount Lienster. I am unable to get a signal and live 125 feet over Thomastown towards the west but have not got eye sight of either location. To be honest find that internet radio is perfect, lost of brilliant stations and with any good broadband there is never a breakdown and quality of some stations is in excess of 128 KBPS. Down in the dumps though is our own local station KCLR which only streams on 24 KBPS not really worth listening to at that rate.

bkehoe

kittytwister wrote: »

I have a Sensia DAB internet radio...not great for receiving FM but brilliant internet radio. Have tried to get a DAB signal but failed to date. Was out for a walk recently on the Blackstairs and there is a DAB multiplex being broadcast from an aerial just over Glynn village. This was confirmed to me by the person working on the site that they were an independent group and broadcast local radio stations as well as R. nova and Dublins Country mix but not RTE...can anyone confirm if RTE broadcast DAB from Mount Lienster. I am unable to get a signal and live 125 feet over Thomastown towards the west but have not got eye sight of either location. To be honest find that internet radio is perfect, lost of brilliant stations and with any good broadband there is never a breakdown and quality of some stations is in excess of 128 KBPS. Down in the dumps though is our own local station KCLR which only streams on 24 KBPS not really worth listening to at that rate.

RTE are not currently and do not plan to broadcast DAB from Mount Leinster in the near future.

As for the test multiplex, you may find the coverage map on the website ( http://www.totalbroadcast.net/DAB.html ) useful to see where around Thomastown there is coverage.

watty

Get a DTT stick for laptop or Netbook?

All the DAB stations are on DTT

Anyone tried these?
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250574508406
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380275221394

Peter Henderson

As for the test multiplex, you may find the coverage map on the website ( http://www.totalbroadcast.net/DAB.html ) useful to see where around Thomastown there is coverage.

Yes, interesting they're stating that DAB + will be the standard for the commercial multiplexes in the ROI:

However care must be taken - UK-based chains tend to stock UK-specification radios, which often do not support DAB+. This will be the format used in Ireland when the system is rolled out, so its important to ensure that any radio you buy is future-proof

Yet another compatability issue with the ROI and UK, just like MPeg 4 and MPeg 2 on the TV end.

A vast majority of DAB radios within the UK do not support DAB +. Obviously, the ROI independant retailers are importing their radios from the continent. Yet more confusion.

watty

But basic DAB is totally obsolete, MP2

Arqiva bought one of the DAB multiplexes in UK for £1

bkehoe

A lot of newer DAB radios sold in the UK can support DAB+ with a software update and/or the entry of a licence key which can be obtained from the manufacturer (e.g. Pure Highway). Until someone launches a commercial multiplex it's only speculation to say what the official policy will be and by the time that happens the supply of DAB+ radios should have improved. I suspect the emphasis will be on DAB+ as it is much more efficient and is being adopted by other countries launching digital broadcasting such as Australia. However we could see a mix, like the current South East test mux - some stations may desire to be available in standard DAB due to the receiver situation, but in any case there will be a certain amount of DAB+ - it'd be foolish not to adopt it.

A mux for £1, hah, but they still charge a eye watering fortune to carry stations even on little regional/local muxes in the UK. The economics have to change to make it viable in Ireland with commercial broadcasters.

Why would we want to stick with outdated technology just because the UK have done so?