DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

lawhec

The main problem is that across Europe, while DVB-T is pretty much standard across the continent bar issues regarding MPEG2/MPEG4 and the future of DVB-T2, digital radio standards are a mess - DAB, DAB+, DMB, DRM, FMeXtra and HD Radio are being scattered around different countries that have any idea of a future digital radio platform. Not to mention talk of American style "satellite radio" even with Worldspace dead. Many other countries are happy enough with FM for now at least. Even MW/LW is still semi-viable in a few outcast places.

watty

They did bring out a pan-Euro spec for digital radios a few years ago, DAB, DAB+ and DMB, but missing DRM which has now actually got broadcasts (it didn't back then).

Digital TV too is back the to the Hienz 57... of Secam PAL , NTSC
2 versions of Japanese system (Japan and Brazil version)
USA system (ATSC)
DVB-t
DVB-t2
Media-Flo
IPW-TV

On Satellite
DirecTV's satellite is different anyone else's
DVB-s
DVB-s2

Then there is 24 fps progressive,
720p 30
720p 25
1080i 30
1080i 25
Plus US fake HD 480p!

It's a jungle.

zilog_jones

watty wrote: »

Then there is 24 fps progressive,
720p 30
720p 25
1080i 30
1080i 25
Plus US fake HD 480p!

576p was a common "HD" format in Australia too up until recently. Also, don't forget 720p50 and 720p60, the only real point in 720p!

Are France actually using DMB for audio? Anyone else in Europe?

bkehoe

Nova has just joined the South-East DAB trial! 160k stereo. And I've heard that there may be a new DAB+ service in a few weeks too. :eek:

Peter Henderson

bkehoe wrote: »

Nova has just joined the South-East DAB trial! 160k stereo. And I've heard that there may be a new DAB+ service in a few weeks too. :eek:

Have my predictions come true re. the ROI and DAB+ !

I've been told that Ofcom are apparently working very cosely with Comreg to clear band III as soon as possible and that the remaining VHF TV transmitters in the ROI could be turned off as early as October 2010 ?

There's also a fairly extensive expansion of the BBC multiplex in the province due over the next couple of years with some new sites in addition to the ones announced last March. At least 2 will be in the ROI, apparently. Clermont Carn in Co Louth, and Tully Hill in Co. Sligo:

http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=IJ287750

Peter - BBC Present/ Future DAB stations…
All these sites have had been placed on the BBC’s list and have planning applications pending. Some of the sites are already on air... I have this on very good authority.

Armagh IH 8914465 114 52 12B 10C / 12D

Ballycastle ID077423 2 150 40 10C / 12D

Ballynahinch IJ362524 1 100 15 10C / 12D

Black Mountain IJ278727 10 301 210 12D / [12B*] 10C

Brougher Mountain IH350527 5 309 44 12B / 12D 11D

Camlough IJ 056246 5 340 50 10C / 12D

Carnmoney Hill IJ336 829 1 207 27 12D

Clermont Carn (Lough) IB174733 5 510 60 12D

Colinward IJ 317803 1 335 35 12D 10C

Craigballyharky (Pomeroy) IH734756 2 232 15 11C / 11D / 12D

Divis IJ 287750 115 12B / [12D*] 10C

Enniskillen IH233457 0.5 61 26 12D

Kilkeel IJ281180 2 254 58 10C /12D

Larne ID394037 0.2 111 22 12D

Leitrim IJ252425 2 312 35 10C /12D

Limavady IC711296 7 356 30 12B / 12D 11C / 12C

Lisbellaw IH309410 1 91 20 11D /12D

Londonderry IC404175 6.3 168 96 12B / 12D 11C

Maddybenny More IC846376 1.5 84 74 12D

Newcastle (NI) IJ362303 5 251 42 10C / 12D

Strabane IH 3939475 274 231 12B / 12D 11C / 11D

Tully Hill (Sligo) ID008028 5 195 25 10C / 11C /12D

Treated as co-sited*

also:

Peter - My understanding is that a lot of behind the scenes work is going on between Comreg and Ofcom to clear band 3. The five remaining band 3 sites in the South, 3 will likely close as early as the end of October this year. Since Arqiva became involved in the South you'll see a more cross border approach to spectrum planning which is exactly what's needed, they won't want there crowning of the DSO project spoiled by channeling problems.

The three sites you mention Leitrim is a tv relay site in Co Down. There other two are obvious contenders for expanding coverage in border areas. Because a DAB multiplex runs as an SFN there would be no co-channel issues and run along aside RTE DAB...

Colinward is on that list along side Carnmoney Hill because it's already on air it's ear-marked to transmit 12D to further expand coverage in the South Antrim area.

Some of the ERP's are interesting... I don't know what the future holds for RTE UHF coverage in Northern Ireland i'm sure we will learn more as the time comes closer

Happy days if the above is true. Maybe we'll get Digital One in the province sooner than we think ? Although they can now broadcast in the province due to the digital economy act, there's no update on their website. DAB could become very intersting indeed in the province.

Or am I just daydreaming ?

The Cush

Peter Henderson wrote: »

I've been told that Ofcom are apparently working very cosely with Comreg to clear band III as soon as possible and that the remaining VHF TV transmitters in the ROI could be turned off as early as October 2010 ?

Whoever told you that doesn't have a clue about analogue switchoff (ASO) here.

If the main VHF transmitters were switched off it would deprive a lot of viewers of RTÉ 1&2 with nothing to replace them. Can you find an official announcement anywhere telling viewers they are going to lose RTÉ 1&2 in two months time?

The earliest VHF ASO will happen is Q4 2012 and the latest is 17 Jun 2015.

The person that told you the VHF transmitters could be switched off as early as Oct I guess is confusing it with the soft/technical launch of the DTT network by the end of Oct. The full national launch of digital terrestrial television network will not happen until next year (sometime between Apr and Dec 2011).

ASO will not happen until
- there is a replacement service
- sufficient time for a public awareness campaign
- sufficient time for people to replace or upgrade equipment.

The latest announcement from the Dept of Communications on ASO

Analogue switch-off will take place at the end of 2012 and we need to be prepared. My Department will be coordinating the preparations and I will be receiving regular updates on progress.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/New+%e2%82%ac70+million+digital+network+to+be+built+by+RT%c3%89+including+new+satellite+service.htm

Peter Henderson wrote: »

also:

Peter - My understanding is that a lot of behind the scenes work is going on between Comreg and Ofcom to clear band 3. The five remaining band 3 sites in the South, 3 will likely close as early as the end of October this year. Since Arqiva became involved in the South you'll see a more cross border approach to spectrum planning which is exactly what's needed, they won't want there crowning of the DSO project spoiled by channeling problems.

Or am I just daydreaming ?

Didn't Arqiva's possible involvement in TV transmission end with the failure of the commercial DTT process with OneVision.

bkehoe

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Have my predictions come true re. the ROI and DAB+ !

4 stations on a trial multiplex using DAB+ (beside the 7 using standard DAB) is hardly an confirmation of the future broadcast technologies to be used here but could be an indication as to the direction the commercial operators want to go. The company responsible wants to have experience with whichever technology is used, and most likely it will initially be a mix like the current trials initially anyway. The availability of UK spec DAB only radios in huge quantities (Tesco for 20 euro) is gonna make DAB+ difficult to introduce.

Peter Henderson

The earliest VHF ASO will happen is Q4 2012 and the latest is 17 Jun 2015.

Does that mean NI listeners are going to have to wait a possible 5 years in order to rerceive Absolute Radio (and not just the variants which have recently arrived on Digital One) ? GRRRRRRRRRRRR. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

This has now been going on for the last decade and something should have been sorted out by now. I still find it odd that the reason we don't have these frequencies is due to Kipppure and Truskmore yet, the Clermont Carn DAB test is unreceivable here (Jordanstown) despite a roof DAB aerial and excellent reception from the analogue radio services. If the ROI can block the DAB transmissions to NI surely they could do the same up here ? I think Ofcom and Comreg should be working behind the scences to sort this out, whether Jordy's claims are true or not (it would make perfect sense in light of last Feb's MOU announcement). I still do not think that Digital one transmitters in either the East or North of the province would cause any major problems to either Truskmore or Kippure.

Whatever the solution, something needs to be done quickly and before 2015 (the proposed analogue radio switch off date for the UK)

Peter Henderson

bkehoe wrote: »

4 stations on a trial multiplex using DAB+ (beside the 7 using standard DAB) is hardly an confirmation of the future broadcast technologies to be used here but could be an indication as to the direction the commercial operators want to go. The company responsible wants to have experience with whichever technology is used, and most likely it will initially be a mix like the current trials initially anyway. The availability of UK spec DAB only radios in huge quantities (Tesco for 20 euro) is gonna make DAB+ difficult to introduce.

Well, they did it with the MPeg 4 tests on DTT and that's seemingly not a problem so why not with DAB + and digital radio ? It would be par for the course in my opinion. I've been told DAB + sounds much better than DAB by the way.

My personal opinion is that a good quality FM signal actually sounds much better than a DAB one (certainly in all the DAB radios that I have it does). Were DAB is useful is in the number of DAB only stations (not in NI unfortunately) and the fact that AM stations sound much better on DAB, even at a low bitrate.

Virtually all Pure radios that are sold in Europe are DAB + compatible but not those sold in the UK (apart from a few such as the Pure Evoke Flow, an excellent digital/internet radio). Which is odd. I would have thought that both Pure and Roberts should be making their radions DAB + compatible at this stage of the game.

watty

There is NO analogue Radio switch off date in UK. That's a scare tactic. In fact even if DAB ever reaches 50% (2030 maybe), they could not turn off Analogue or have a date. It looks likely that most Digital Radio growth is Online and other sources rather than just DAB.

Even if DAB is successful they are not turning off Analogue Radio. Read the fine print.

The Cush

Peter Henderson wrote: »

If the ROI can block the DAB transmissions to NI surely they could do the same up here ? I think Ofcom and Comreg should be working behind the scences to sort this out, whether Jordy's claims are true or not (it would make perfect sense in light of last Feb's MOU announcement).

We know there are meetings ongoing between the two countries per the MoU in relation to coordinating switchover and ASO between the two jurisdictions in late 2012 but not before that date.

bkehoe

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Well, they did it with the MPeg 4 tests on DTT and that's seemingly not a problem so why not with DAB + and digital radio ? It would be par for the course in my opinion. I've been told DAB + sounds much better than DAB by the way.

My personal opinion is that a good quality FM signal actually sounds much better than a DAB one (certainly in all the DAB radios that I have it does). Were DAB is useful is in the number of DAB only stations (not in NI unfortunately) and the fact that AM stations sound much better on DAB, even at a low bitrate.

Virtually all Pure radios that are sold in Europe are DAB + compatible but not those sold in the UK (apart from a few such as the Pure Evoke Flow, an excellent digital/internet radio). Which is odd. I would have thought that both Pure and Roberts should be making their radions DAB + compatible at this stage of the game.

I think you need to pay a visit to the South East to hear a decent quality DAB station as it doesn't look like you ever have. When a station has audio processing optimised for digital distribution (such as Beat 102-103 or Nova on this trial), a high quality feed to the mux, and a decent bitrate, etc, the difference overwhelming.
I have a very good car audio system (Harman Kardon Logic 7) so the difference is immediately obvious when switching from FM to DAB (through a Pure Highway using the line output - not the FM modulator). There is so much detail in the DAB version that gets reduced to mush in the FM transmission, especially the top end. The FM sounds lifeless in comparison. And before anyone suggests that there is something wrong with their FM processing, there's not, it's up there among the best. In fact the DAB and FM feeds are both processed by their Optimod 8400, the difference being that the DAB feed is taken from the HD output. Nova also has a standalone processor for the web and DAB streams. Both of these stations, along with 4FM are in 160kbit/sec stereo. Industry professionals have been among those who expressed surprise at how good the DAB stations sound when done well.

The policies of UK multiplex operators - putting on stations in 112k stereo, 64k mono, etc, has given DAB a bad reputation.

On to DAB+ then...the main selling point is spectral efficiency, not necessarily quality. In the SE trial, so far, it hasn't been possible to make a DAB+ station at any bitrate sound quite as good as a properly done high bitrate DAB service. However, it comes into its own at low bitrates. All the DAB+ services in the SE are using 48k AAC+ which in my opinion sounds roughly as good as 128k stereo MPEG2 from doing comparisons. I've heard it at higher bitrates and the increase in quality doesn't really justify the extra bitrate - 48k seems to be a nice balance. Maybe things will change but for now it seems to be the case that if you want the best quality then DAB still delivers.

Commercial interests will be the driving force behind the choice of technology to use. Multiplex pricing is typically set based on the amount of bandwidth used for a service so obviously DAB+ should be cheaper long term (albeit with a higher initial development cost) but availability of cheap radios is a huge factor. As good as Pure radios are, the ones that do DAB+ tend to be expensive compared to what the average Joe Soap is going to pick up in Tesco along with their groceries. And for many years people have been listening to RTE's DAB services. So short term I suspect we'll have multiplexes with both on them if and when a framework that permits commercial multiplexes is decided upon.

Antenna

bkehoe wrote: »

II have a very good car audio system (Harman Kardon Logic 7) so the difference is immediately obvious when switching from FM to DAB (through a Pure Highway using the line output - not the FM modulator). There is so much detail in the DAB version that gets reduced to mush in the FM transmission

Though what type of aerial is used with that car audio system? - FM car radio reception in a car with a rear window demister incorporated aerial is poor compared with a vertical aerial on the car's roof. - even the ones with two FM aerials on the back window for diversity reception - it just doesn't compare with a car radio in another car using a roof 'bee-sting' aerial for marginal FM reception.

I'm of course not saying that FM is without fault - but a lot of modern car radios/aerials even in high-end cars do not do FM justice.

watty

Bee sting v. poor compared to old 75cm whip.

Modern FM radio stations are rubbish compared to 1970s. Over processed. An €8 "iTrip" FM transmitter (off a 5V adaptor as the chips need 2.75V minimum and many have only a single 1.5V AA). sounds FAR better than any FM station with only 256k MP3 from CD.
256K DAB is about 192k MP3

bkehoe

Antenna, and there I was thinking that by describing my car setup it would remove any doubt or questionable areas. Haha. Signal strength is not an issue, believe me. And it's not just my opinion, as I said everyone (Ireland's most well known and respected radio engineers included) who has compared it side by side has been surprised...on any form of reception device with any kind of antenna.

Sam Russell

bkehoe wrote: »

Antenna, and there I was thinking that by describing my car setup it would remove any doubt or questionable areas. Haha. Signal strength is not an issue, believe me. And it's not just my opinion, as I said everyone (Ireland's most well known and respected radio engineers included) who has compared it side by side has been surprised...on any form of reception device with any kind of antenna.

There is a misconception that digital is better than analogue. With analogue, for example, TV the engineers and production strive to get the best signal that they can. It is the distributed to the transmitter, again trying to get the best that can be got. The best aerial is used to receive int the best TV. That way, the viewer sees the best picture that can be got. No-one in the chaain allowed the quality to drop. Nature and the laws of physics worked against them by introducing noise and distortion.

With digital it is all different. The engineers can 'adjust' the signal because there is no loss in signal quality because of the nature of the digital signal and error correction. The signal is as transmitted or it is not received. So the engineer can squash the signal to compress the bandwidth requirement, use less bits to get more out of the transmission medium, etc.

So now, the transmission media can be optimised to give near perfect quality, or more quantity. More quantity means more revenue, so guess which way the bean counters direct things?

watty

48k AAC+ which in my opinion sounds roughly as good as 128k stereo MPEG2

not quite as good. Also 128k MP2 is rubbish. 128k MP3 is much better and too poor.

what we need is 128k AAC+ or digital radio on Band III is pointless.

48K AAC+ is not evidence of ingenuity, but greed to fit too much in. It's only 1.7MHz a Multiplex. What on earth else is going to be done with Band III? If you want to convince aim for quality and if you want quantity, pay for more spectrum.

Comparisons with stupidly processed FM radio or 128K MP2 is not proof on anything especially if it's not an AB "double blind" trial.

Gerry Wicklow

reminds of the guys paying thousands for the best sounding guitar they can get and thousands more for gadgets to mess up the sound:)

Antenna

bkehoe wrote: »

Antenna, and there I was thinking that by describing my car setup it would remove any doubt or questionable areas. Haha. Signal strength is not an issue, believe me. And it's not just my opinion, as I said everyone (Ireland's most well known and respected radio engineers included) who has compared it side by side has been surprised...on any form of reception device with any kind of antenna.

I don't doubt the very high quality of the DAB trial, and comparisons done on a variety of receivers I take on board. + personally agree the FM stations compared with are above the norm in FM audio quality

But some car radios and a rear window "Demister aerial" may not be doing FM much justice - some comparisons may not be 'fair' to FM, due to the receiver and/or the aerial.

my own experience - car radio in someone's modern VW with diversity "demister aerial" printed on rear window - noticeable audible switching effects (I'm not talking about RDS frequency switching) much of the time as the radio (even when car stationary) cannot make up its mind which of its two FM aerials (2 vertical lines printed on the rear window) has best reception.
These rear window aerials can receive a disproportionate amount of multipath (causing mush sound) depending on which direction the vehicle is.
(Another disadvantage of the rear window aerial is more interference pickup from electronics in use in the car).
Reception so much better on another (older) car with a 'beesting aerial' on roof.

Even leaving aside the above - FM audio quality in modern cars i often find to be inferior - I suspect due to issues with DSP demodulation

Antenna

watty wrote: »

Bee sting v. poor compared to old 75cm whip.

Yes a vertical approx 1/4 wave for FM on roof of car would be much better, but a foot long or so beesting isn't too bad. (the shorter beestings would be poor)

A big problem with the general public in the past was that the original car radio would be replaced - and the pre-amplifier used in the 'beesting' gets its power disconnected in the installation! - then they later wonder why the FM reception is so bad (and zero reception on AM).

The internal preamplifiers in the base have been also prone to failure in some beestings due to moisture ingress

BTW it has been common that 'whip' car aerials were at about a 45 degree angle. However multipath is much less and more solid reception with the whip vertical.
Some (wrong) advice in the past was to have whip at 45 degrees for best reception! This probably dated from the time the UK and other countries used horizontal polarisation only for FM and 45 degress was the best compromise with a vehicle whip and H polarisation.

thetonynator

I'm in kilkenny - about 10 miles south of the city - and i have a pretty bog standard DAB radio i.e., a stereo with a DAB wire out the back which is stuck to the wall wih blue tack.

Should I be able to get this south east DAB trial that everyone is going on about???

Every time I do an auto scan it scans for a couple of minutes and invariably returns with ''No service''.

Is there some way of getting a better arial, or is it the radio or the signal is the problem???

It would be nice to have a few extra stations!!!

bkehoe

Hi Tony. If you want to PM me your location I'll be able to answer better.

But in general the signal levels required for reception on an indoor aerial probably don't exist in your area due to terrain blocking the path to the multiplex site. From my personal experience while driving on the N9, there's a black spot between Knocktopher and Thomastown caused by Brandon Hill, with the mux only coming back in on the north side of Thomastown again.

I'd say if you had an outdoor aerial or even had your radio near a window facing East then you'd certainly be in with a good chance of getting it though.

A simple way of getting an outdoor aerial with no work might be to plug your radio into a TV outlet, assuming you get your RTE1/2 from Mount Leinster and thus have a VHF Band3 antenna outside or even in the attic. Realignment of the antenna probably isn't required as the angle between the sites is quite small from your area. There was a reception report from someone in North Cork using a TV aerial in his attic a few months ago when the trial started!

The only other tip I can offer is to do a manual tune to channel 9B if your radio allows it (most do, but some require a certain combination of keypresses for which you'd need to refer to the manual for details). The reason being is that many UK spec radios do a 'quick scan' which only covers the portion of the band that the UK uses rather than what's in use here in Ireland.

Good luck

thetonynator

bkehoe wrote: »

Hi Tony. If you want to PM me your location I'll be able to answer better.

But in general the signal levels required for reception on an indoor aerial probably don't exist in your area due to terrain blocking the path to the multiplex site. From my personal experience while driving on the N9, there's a black spot between Knocktopher and Thomastown caused by Brandon Hill, with the mux only coming back in on the north side of Thomastown again.

I'd say if you had an outdoor aerial or even had your radio near a window facing East then you'd certainly be in with a good chance of getting it though.

A simple way of getting an outdoor aerial with no work might be to plug your radio into a TV outlet, assuming you get your RTE1/2 from Mount Leinster and thus have a VHF Band3 antenna outside or even in the attic. Realignment of the antenna probably isn't required as the angle between the sites is quite small from your area. There was a reception report from someone in North Cork using a TV aerial in his attic a few months ago when the trial started!

The only other tip I can offer is to do a manual tune to channel 9B if your radio allows it (most do, but some require a certain combination of keypresses for which you'd need to refer to the manual for details). The reason being is that many UK spec radios do a 'quick scan' which only covers the portion of the band that the UK uses rather than what's in use here in Ireland.

Good luck

I'm between Knocktopher and Thomastown. Typical!!!

I'll try manually tune it,, but i'm not too hopeful - typical, the only hill in the whole of kilkenny is in the way!!!!

bkehoe

That is rather unfortunate. An outdoor/attic aerial might still do it though so if you've a TV one up you've got nothing to loose. I'd be hesitant to recommend purchasing anything specifically for it though.

thetonynator

bkehoe wrote: »

That is rather unfortunate. An outdoor/attic aerial might still do it though so if you've a TV one up you've got nothing to loose. I'd be hesitant to recommend purchasing anything specifically for it though.

haven't got a tv one up . . .:( tv signal is off the rabbit ears . .

watty

I'm in favor of Digital Radio.
But with Increase not Decrease in:
1) Quality
2) Ease of use
3) Only comparing Broadcast not Online
4) Choice
There should not even be discussion of Turning of FM unless listening is 20% of Digital Radio Broadcast (not total Digital delivery).

We don't want "rail roaded" like UK. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/14/ceg_digital_radio_consumer_report/

It should not be driven soley by RTE. Currently though I have much more faith in RTE than in our Quangos such as ASAI, Comreg and BAI, all of whom seem more interested in protecting Encumbents and Big Multi-National Business rather than Consumer or Small Indigenous Local companies (Local Wireless ISPs or locally owned Local/Comunitity Radio). Should a Media Company own more than one Local Radio Station? I don't think so.

Elmo

The ASAI (Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland) are not a Quango, they are a self regulatory body for the Advertising industry in Ireland.

watty

They are useless and not answerable in an sensible manner, nor supportive of Consumer. In that sense I applied "quango" as now-adays being a term of derision. I agree that they are not technically a quango.

Elmo

watty wrote: »

They are useless and not answerable in an sensible manner, nor supportive of Consumer. In that sense I applied "quango" as now-adays being a term of derision. I agree that they are not technically a quango.

No, they are worse than a QUANGO, they are a FANGO/SRANGO.

Sam the Aerialman

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Have my predictions come true re. the ROI and DAB+ !

I've been told that Ofcom are apparently working very closely with Comreg to clear band III as soon as possible and that the remaining VHF TV transmitters in the ROI could be turned off as early as October 2010 ?

There's also a fairly extensive expansion of the BBC multiplex in the province due over the next couple of years with some new sites in addition to the ones announced last March. At least 2 will be in the ROI, apparently. Clermont Carn in Co Louth, and Tully Hill in Co. Sligo:

http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=IJ287750

Happy days if the above is true. Maybe we'll get Digital One in the province sooner than we think ? Although they can now broadcast in the province due to the digital economy act, there's no update on their website. DAB could become very intersting indeed in the province.

Or am I just daydreaming ?

Yes you are i'm reading that will amazement because that looks strangely like the BBC's reserved DAB Tx list and has been in circulation since about 2001. What OFCOM put's up as possible frequencies what the Beeb wants and what Arqiva actually builds are very different things.

On another point if the Band 3 tx's in the South are being turned off in October i'm giving up on life. That's the greatest load of balls i've ever heard in my life. In fact there's one of Arqiva's own Reference Offer documents which states in black and white they won't even contemplate band 3/ analogue switchover in the South until at least Q1 2013.

I agree there needs to be extra DAB tx's in NI, Armagh is in service, Ballycastle, Lisbellaw and Carnmoney Hill are to open next year. DAB will be an after thought until DSO is fully commissioned in the province.