DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

david23

The new UK Government has stated that 2015 switchover is still an "ambition" but in reality the conditions that they have laid down mean a switchover cannot happen in 2015, and may not even happen in 2020.

Politically this is a perfect fudge for them as they continue to make positive noises about DAB, while avoiding the prospect of millions of listeners losing their FM signals in General Election year (the UK General Election is due in May 2015).

DAB/DAB+ & FM will continue side by side in European countries for at least another ten years. As in other countries, the big question in the UK is where the funding will come from in times of recession to roll out DAB to 98.5% coverage (to be equivalent to FM), with the BBC licence fee "digital TV switchover surplus" being proposed as the most likely option.

The UK radio analyst Grant Goddard has written an interesting article on this:

http://grantgoddardradioblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/digital-radio-switchover-talk-is-cheap.html

Pangea

Is there any chance of getting this in Donegal?

watty

No Irish DAB in Donegal

The stations are on Internet at lower quality
http://www.rte.ie/radio/how_listen.html

FM Radio in Donegal via RTE
http://www.rte.ie/radio/NW.html

Can I get DAB digital radio anywhere in Ireland?

Digital radio is currently available for 52% of Ireland's population, in the Greater Dublin area, in North and West Leinster and in Cork and Limerick cities. Click here for coverage map. RTÉ has said that investment in further expansion of the network out will depend on engagement of the whole radio industry including independent commercial stations.

Can I get local stations from other parts of the country?
No. Because it's a terrestrial transmission system, you can only receive local stations within their transmitter range.

Is the reception the same all over?
No, the reception you get depends on the coverage in your area.

via http://www.rte.ie/digitalradio/faq.html

Coverage map
http://www.rte.ie/digitalradio/faq_map.html

BUT
All the RTE stations (10?) are on Digital Terrestrial (DTT), or will be on 31st Oct 2010
A Suitable TV, Setbox, USB DTT receiver on Laptop/Netbook or some phones with DTT that are compatible can be used for Radio via DTT.

Trick of the Tail

And - there is a trial DAB multiplex in the south-east, operated by independent company Total Broadcast Consultants, carrying 10 DAB channels and 3 DAB+ channels.

A.

byrnefm

Pangea wrote: »

Is there any chance of getting this in Donegal?

As Watty says, there is no Irish DAB reception in Donegal. Depending where you are, you may be able to receive the 2 NI Muxes, for example, in parts of Letterkenny and possibly elsewhere as well, although unless you're right along the border, the chances are very slim.

david23

The BBC will be rolling out more transmitters for their UK national multiplex over the next twelve months. There will be seven new transmitters for Northern Ireland, including Enniskillen and North Antrim.

http://www.radio-now.co.uk/news609.htm

tlaavtech

alinton wrote: »

And - there is a trial DAB multiplex in the south-east, operated by independent company Total Broadcast Consultants, carrying 10 DAB channels and 3 DAB+ channels.

A.

How long is the test licensed for? (To see if it's worth buying a DAB Radio )

Trick of the Tail

Initially until April 2011, but it may be extended if required.

A.

dowtchaboy

tlaavtech wrote: »

How long is the test licensed for? (To see if it's worth buying a DAB Radio )

Since you are in Tramore - I got an excellent value DAB radio in Tesco Tramore a couple of weeks ago for €25 - there were a few of them - has 10 FM, 10 DAB and an Pod dock on top. Was on the back wall - to the left of all the other DAB and audio gear. Their own brand - Technika??

tlaavtech

dowtchaboy wrote: »

Since you are in Tramore - I got an excellent value DAB radio in Tesco Tramore a couple of weeks ago for €25 - there were a few of them - has 10 FM, 10 DAB and an Pod dock on top. Was on the back wall - to the left of all the other DAB and audio gear. Their own brand - Technika??

Those are exactly the ones I am trying not to buy

Peter Henderson

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but......DAB in Northern Ireland currently suffers because the ROI are still using VHF for analogue TV. For example, we have no access in the propvince to Digital One including Absolute Radio..

I assume that when the ROI TV services go digital, and the old VHF transmitters are closed (2012 ?) we'll have a whole new range of DAB frequencies and stations we currently can't get ?

It would be nice if space could be found for all the main RTE services plus Today FM and Newstalk (I assume Today FM and Newstalk will be on the ROI' s DAB service eventually).

Anyone know when the troublesome VHF TV transmitters in the ROI are going to close (namely Kippure and Truskmore) ? I've read that Digital One now have a licence to broadcast in NI so they must be expecting something to happen soon.

By the way, on the topic of receivers, I wouldn't buy anything unless it was DAB+ compatibale , either out of the box or by a firmware upgrade.

P.S. I've yet to hear anything from the Clermont Cairn DAB test despite excellent reception of both analogue TV and radio in this area.

Peter Henderson

tlaavtech wrote: »

Those are exactly the ones I am trying not to buy

It might be beter to buy an internet DAB/FM radio. That way, it'll not be redundant when the test stops. All the RTE DAB services are on the internet.

byte

Peter Henderson wrote: »

It might be beter to buy an internet DAB/FM radio. That way, it'll not be redundant when the test stops. All the RTE DAB services are on the internet.

If you're getting a Wifi/DAB radio it might be best to get one that supports DAB+?

I note that my new Roberts Wifi/DAB/FM only supports DAB, not DAB+

I think most of Pure's range support DAB+

lawhec

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Anyone know when the troublesome VHF TV transmitters in the ROI are going to close (namely Kippure and Truskmore) ? I've read that Digital One now have a licence to broadcast in NI so they must be expecting something to happen soon.

I'd assume VHF TV from Truskmore and Kippure will close when DSO takes place. So not for another two years or so at least.

Also that's the first I've heard about Digital 1 being granted a licence extension into Northern Ireland. Source?

P.S. I've yet to hear anything from the Clermont Cairn DAB test despite excellent reception of both analogue TV and radio in this area.

DAB from Clermont Carn is using a directional aerial pointing approx SSW, very little overspill going north.

The Cush

Peter Henderson wrote: »

I've read that Digital One now have a licence to broadcast in NI so they must be expecting something to happen soon.

Someone commented similar here in relation to the Digital Economy Act, but nothing official from Digital One.

Peter Henderson

The Cush wrote: »

Someone commented similar here in relation to the Digital Economy Act, but nothing official from Digital One.

Yep, that's where I read the statement cush.

The last time I was in contact with Digital One via e-mail they did tell me they didn't have a licence to broadcast to the province so it's good this has now at least changed. The person commenting appears to be a spokesperson for Absolute Radio.

Given that I can't hear anything from the Clermont Cairn tests especially since analogue is so strong here, and the fact that both Truskmore and Kippure are so weak in much of NI, some Digital One transmitters are surely feasible in parts of NI, especially greater Belfast ? I doubt for example, that a 10 kw DAB transmitter on Divis would cause any problems with either the Truskmore or Kippure TV services.

reboot

lawhec wrote: »

I'd assume VHF TV from Truskmore and Kippure will close when DSO takes place. So not for another two years or so at least.

Also that's the first I've heard about Digital 1 being granted a licence extension into Northern Ireland. Source?


DAB from Clermont Carn is using a directional aerial pointing approx SSW, very little overspill going north.

I assume I am receiving Dab from the Cairn in S .Down.
At one time RTE Mux 2 was available with Newstalk etc on it,has it gone.?
BBC Radio 4 is not easily available due to co channel interference,but RTE DAb is availab
le ,even on the car radio albeit with amp and full wave external antenna.On the subject of Dab radios I think it essential to buy one with an aerial socket .

lawhec

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Given that I can't hear anything from the Clermont Cairn tests especially since analogue is so strong here, and the fact that both Truskmore and Kippure are so weak in much of NI, some Digital One transmitters are surely feasible in parts of NI, especially greater Belfast ? I doubt for example, that a 10 kw DAB transmitter on Divis would cause any problems with either the Truskmore or Kippure TV services.

Truskmore VHF telly actually serves quite a large part of Northern Ireland, especially west of the Ballygawley roundabout and south of Strabane. Quite a lot of people still rely on that signal for RTÉ1 and RTÉ2 (especially those that don't have Sky).

Kippure I still believe has some users in Co. Down along the coast. Co-Channel interference would be a problem using Block 10 frequencies.

A small, low-powered transmitter serving the city centre in Belfast is probably feasible, but a big DAB transmitter on Divis or Black Mountain as mentioned would be unlikely as it would need to be shielded towards the south and (heavily) the west to prevent interference not only to domestic viewers both north and south, but also RBR links for relays/transposers used by RTÉ.

Under Geneva 06, current VHF television services have primary protection in Band III and unlike UHF television allocations, Band III analogue TV allocations can if necessary be protected until 2020.

Peter Henderson

But would there even be much of a problem even with a 10 kw DAB transmitter on either Black Mountain or Divis, given that any TV aerials will be pointing in the opposite direction to Divis/Black Mountain ?

For example, what's DAB reception from Divis/Black Mountain like west of the the Ballygawley roundabout ? I would imagine probably non existant. DAB from Brougher mountain might be a problem but not from Divis or Black mountain. Likewise, South Down (I've yet to see any VHF TV aerials for Kippure in the East Down area). I would imagine DAB reception from either Divis or Black Mountain is virtually impossible in most of South Down.

A 10 kw DAB transmitter for Belfast and the surrounding area would present no problem for either Kippure or Truskmore in my opinion.

Why can't Ofcom/Comreg authorize some tests in order to find out ?

lawhec

Peter Henderson wrote: »

But would there even be much of a problem even with a 10 kw DAB transmitter on either Black Mountain or Divis, given that any TV aerials will be pointing in the opposite direction to Divis/Black Mountain ?

For example, what's DAB reception from Divis/Black Mountain like west of the the Ballygawley roundabout ? I would imagine probably non existant. DAB from Brougher mountain might be a problem but not from Divis or Black mountain. Likewise, South Down (I've yet to see any VHF TV aerials for Kippure in the East Down area). I would imagine DAB reception from either Divis or Black Mountain is virtually impossible in most of South Down.

A 10 kw DAB transmitter for Belfast and the surrounding area would present no problem for either Kippure or Truskmore in my opinion.

Why can't Ofcom/Comreg authorize some tests in order to find out ?

It's now difficult to measure due to the SFN nature of DAB transmissions without some very technical equipment, but when Divis was the only transmitter the BBC had in Northern Ireland, I'd no problem picking it up using a set of rabbit ears in the attic. Distance? 85km line of sight, and I don't live very high up. The primary means of receiving RTÉ analogue TV here is from Truskmore so this would be an area where using Block 11 DAB frequencies would result in problems. The fact that aerials for TV may be facing a different direction doesn't discount that (especially in fringe reception areas) even small levels of co-channel interference presents big problems. Byte or Watty might be able to quote better figures, but an interfering co-channel signal does not have to be very strong, even 30db or 1000 times weaker than the primary signal to upset television reception.

Over in Britain - and indeed at Clermont Carn for RTÉ - many regional and local DAB multiplexes are heavily directional to prevent co-channel interference problems at distances even greater than Divis and Truskmore. I've heard of comments from people who say that they can see the transmission mast of a DAB TX aerial yet not get reception of a local multiplex.

Kippure isn't a major problem for DAB in N.I. unless Block 10 frequencies are considered for use.

A similar problem affects Divis for DTT transmissions - almost all current DTT frequencies in use are on low power to protect the same on-channel allocations for either analogue or digital TV from Caldbeck, Hoylwell Hill and Brougher Mountain. Brougher Mountain's current DTT power is limited for the same reason (it's switch on was delayed because of interference issues with Holywell Hill).

Finally the reason Ofcom & Comreg are unlikely to physically test for interference issues is that (a) The current TV frequencies used from Truskmore on VHF Band III are primary use through co-ordination with the ITU. Co-channel use from Divis (as would be the case for Block 11 DAB transmissions) would require co-ordination from the Republic's authorities, and (b) computer prediction coverage by Ofcom, Comreg, RTÉNL, Arqiva etc. could quite simply tell them issues that are likely to arise without needing to spend time and money on physical tests and be cheaper in the process.

watty

And at end of 2012 ALL Analogue VHF TV will be gone.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

And at end of 2012 ALL Analogue VHF TV will be gone.

And once that happens, the new VHF Band III allocations come into play - In the Republic, this includes 1.7MHz wide allocations across all of Band III and 7MHz allocations based on regional SFNs from E5 to E9.

In N.I., some extra DAB (1.7 MHz) allocations also become open, but interestingly the Geneva 06 draft did not include 11D or 12A being available - both frequencies are used by Digital 1 in Britain (11D England & Wales, 12A Scotland).

lucernarian

watty wrote: »

And at end of 2012 ALL Analogue VHF TV will be gone.

Wouldn't that come back to the oft-discussed point about if this country will actually switch off Analogue over-the-air TV in 2012? It's not legally mandated until 2015, whatever the European Commission may "recommend".

Antenna

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Wouldn't that come back to the oft-discussed point about if this country will actually switch off Analogue over-the-air TV in 2012? It's not legally mandated until 2015, whatever the European Commission may "recommend".

I can't see it happening. Even if this country had instead gone with the still much cheaper (and already there on many in-use TVs) MPEG2 for DTT instead of MPEG4 I couldn't see ASO happening at the end of 2012 for a number of reasons.

Extension of DAB stations in northern Ireland? - in any event are the broadcasters concerned really interested in the costs of extending to NI in the current economic climate ?
If yes, ofcom would best have to look at adding some frequencies between 230 and 240MHz for DAB, as used in some countries (South Africa etc). Existing DAB receivers can cover these frequencies (though may need a change in a set-up menu to find them on a Search)

watty

Lets hope "proper" statistics are gathered here on DAB use:
Not simply counting a household if it has one DAB radio as Digital Listeners, but counting actual Listeners to real Digital Stations!

Ofcom enlists 4-year-olds to boost dodgy DAB stats
Ofcom has an interesting new definition of what constitutes a "radio listener". It now includes four-year-old children. And at a stroke, DAB radio's prospects suddenly look a lot healthier.

Last month Ofcom released its "Digital Radio Report". One graph purports to demonstrate the reach of digital-only stations. Ofcom claims five digital-only stations are reaching over one million listeners a week. But on closer inspection, the listeners are aged "4+".

This is odd, because the radio industry counts listeners aged 15+ as a benchmark. This is the qualification threshold used by RAJAR, the ratings body jointly owned by the BBC and commercial radio operators. When the graph is adjusted to the more standard metric, the five stations count falls to three.

In addition, BBC World Service is listed as "digital-only", even though it can be heard in the UK through analogue on medium wave (648Khz) and long wave (198). Make that two, then.

via http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/05/ofcom_dodgy_dab_dossier/
(Yes I know it's Andrew Orlowski)

david23

Isn't it fair to include children aged 4 - 15 in the audience figures for stations such as BBC7 & Fun Kids, as a large amount of the programming is aimed specifically at them?

Incidentally Ofcom published this report on 21st July, and there wasn't a whisper from Orlowski until 4th August (two weeks later) when he read a blog written by the radio analyst Grant Goddard which supported his point of view on DAB.

Apparently the "errors" in Ofcom's report were so obvious that Orlowski needed someone else to point them out to him.

Peter Henderson

Extension of DAB stations in northern Ireland? - in any event are the broadcasters concerned really interested in the costs of extending to NI in the current economic climate ?
If yes, ofcom would best have to look at adding some frequencies between 230 and 240MHz for DAB, as used in some countries (South Africa etc). Existing DAB receivers can cover these frequencies (though may need a change in a set-up menu to find them on a Search)

are you talking about the supposed new L band frequencies ? I thought these would have been operational by now.

lawhec

Peter Henderson wrote: »

are you talking about the supposed new L band frequencies ? I thought these would have been operational by now.

L-Band frequencies won't be used for DAB, at least in the UK anyway, they were auctioned off to Quallcomm a couple of years ago for technology-neutral us (the most likely candidate, if it ever gets up and running, would be for their Media-FLO technology).

The block 13 DAB frequencies occupy the 230-240MHz spectrum, above the traditional VHF Band III spectrum in Europe. Only Denmark, South Africa and New Zealand have AFAIK used block 13 frequencies for services or tests. In general this is spectrum is used by the military in various countries; almost certain that it's the case in the UK, not sure in the Rep.Ireland.

Peter Henderson

lawhec wrote: »

L-Band frequencies won't be used for DAB, at least in the UK anyway, they were auctioned off to Quallcomm a couple of years ago for technology-neutral us (the most likely candidate, if it ever gets up and running, would be for their Media-FLO technology).

The block 13 DAB frequencies occupy the 230-240MHz spectrum, above the traditional VHF Band III spectrum in Europe. Only Denmark, South Africa and New Zealand have AFAIK used block 13 frequencies for services or tests. In general this is spectrum is used by the military in various countries; almost certain that it's the case in the UK, not sure in the Rep.Ireland.

Not much point in worrying about buying a DAB radio with L band frequencies then (they are still selling them).

There was quite a lot of hype about this a couple of years ago but obviously things have changed.

I can see the same thing happening in the UK with DAB +. It might never happen.

However, it wouldn't surprise me if the ROI adopted DAB +, rather like they've done with MPEG 4 and digital terrestrial television. Which has really turned into a joke since there aren't really any compatible receivers available, apart from the very expensive UK DBV T2 ones. Had they gone for MPEG 2 there would have been plenty of cheap UK boxes.


The same thing could happen with DAB in the ROI.

watty

It's nonsense about the MPEG2.

Also UK is practically alone in clinging to MP2 based DAB. We need AAC based DAB+ Newer receivers do support DAB+.
I'd like to see some decent ones with DRM, DAB+ and FM with RDS as well as AM.