DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

watty

I have nice 2 Euro FM set?

Well, with DTT you can have Radio or the other stuff with pictures.


I'm just suggesting a Country short of money that has not actually done a full DAB roll out can investigate other options. Esp. when the priority is DTT, we really have little hope of ASO by 2012, maybe starting ASO 31st Dec 2012!

L1011

But DTT isn't an option for radio AS THERE ARE NO RADIOS.

watty

Not like DAB ones. They either look like a USB memory stick and need to plug into something, or are like a HiFi separate and only work with HiFi or have a little screen.

Lateral Thinking ... DTT Does get the couple of stations not on FM-VHF (FM: nationwide coverage, all week on 2x AAA and only €2).

I shall figure how to put them on the FM radio/Player in the car. Maybe in Car Micro ITX HDD MP3 player for entire media library and a USB DTT dongle. No MPEG4 to decode if you only need audio.

watty

I've had a Morphy Richards DRM Radio recommend for DAB.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rvr_id=&customid=idealo&item=260472801500
http://www.t-online-shop.de/morphy-richards-drm-radio-27024-drm-dab-radio/?ref=idealo

Both €99 and in Germany so no pesky extra customs.

Anyone see it cheaper or have one?
Experiences?
Does it take firmware updates and can it do DAB+?

L1011

I have one. Its HORRIFIC. Worst interface known to man. The promised DAB+ update never came.

AVOID.

But once again, watty, a DTT box or USB DTT stick *is not a radio*.

watty

Humour me...

Is a HiFi Separate FM tuner a radio?

Is an In Car Entertainment System a radio?

Is a Mobile phone with FM tuner a Radio?

Is a 2 Euro autoscan FM tuner + in ear buds headset a Radio?

Are the Logitech Squeeze box Radio family actually Radios?
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems
(Hint, the only "radio" is WiFi and they Stream Internet content or play MP3s, no AM/FM/DAB/Sat/DTT broadcast. http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/5847)


I have a Satellite Receiver I only use for Radio Stations. Is that a Radio? When not in the room, I listen via "iTrip"gadget and FM Radio.

If I fit a DTT stick inside a Personal Music Player is that a radio?

Since about 1952 there have been Radios with TV and Record player (or vice versa). Quite a few 1950s 405 TVs had an FM Radio setting.

You can get mini-all in ones same size as old CD/Radio/Amp minitower that playDVDs and have a 5" LCD screen. Car Radios with pop out LCD screens with TV and DVD.

so... Thoughts.

watty

Here is a Radio implemented on FPGA you can listen online
http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/


Real Radios
http://www.thevalvepage.com/radios/rad1930.htm

Set-top box to add ITV to BBC only TV in 1950s
http://www.thevalvepage.com/tv/emi/band3/emiband3.htm

1948 Philips combo TV/Radio

Trick of the Tail

I love that Philips! I've got a lovely old 1934 Pye radio that's perfect on the outside, but needs a refurb on the inside. I've got the caps and the valves, I just need the time to do it!

However - on the subject - can I buy:

A car radio?
A portable radio?
A tabletop radio?
A bedside radio/alarm?

...that will receive radio via DTT?

If not, then realistically speaking, DTT 'radios' are not available.

All of those ARE available for DAB and DAB+ though, on which I can currently receive not only my local stations but also some stations that I cannot hear here on FM.

A.

watty

That's not the point I'm making.

Besides most of those DAB radios are ergonomically terrible, overly expensive compared to FM do Digital Radio very few places and even in UK poorer than FM. Frankly the UK high street shop selection of DAB radios are generally terrible. Worldwide it's a niche and also bricks & Mortar retailers seem to have a poor selection from what is available.

Often too the styling and ergonomics compared to good FM radios is poor.

If Digital Radio only used DTT you would get DTT based "Radios" in any form factor. They sadly probably would look just the same as many of the current DAB radios.

I'm only looking at things from a "bigger picture" hypothetical viewpoint.

L1011

Chicken and egg watty. There were DAB receivers available from day 1 of DAB. There are NO DTT radios available and no indications there ever will be, nor any indication that any country is ever going to use the idea.

STB

watty wrote: »

Not like DAB ones. They either look like a USB memory stick and need to plug into something, or are like a HiFi separate and only work with HiFi or have a little screen.

Lateral Thinking ... DTT Does get the couple of stations not on FM-VHF (FM: nationwide coverage, all week on 2x AAA and only €2).

I shall figure how to put them on the FM radio/Player in the car. Maybe in Car Micro ITX HDD MP3 player for entire media library and a USB DTT dongle. No MPEG4 to decode if you only need audio.

Unless they encoded the audio to HE AAC to scupper your plans for world domination!

Incidentally I have seen a MPEG4 DTT kit that runs off a 12v battery complete with a whip aerial for less than €50. I have never posted it as I didnt want people buying them and connecting them up to 220v. Besides the fact that they looked dangerous.

Infact there are many on ebay for people who like to watch Tv rather than keep there eyes on the road.

How would radio over DTT do with moving vehicles? I recall pocket televisions being a bit ropey when used on a train, bus or car.

watty

That was maybe very early DTT sets or Analogue. DTT is a similar type of signal to DAB. It works fine in fast German trains.

watty

STB wrote: »

Unless they encoded the audio to HE AAC to scupper your plans for world domination!

Incidentally I have seen a MPEG4 DTT kit that runs off a 12v battery complete with a whip aerial for less than €50. I have never posted it as I didnt want people buying them and connecting them up to 220v. Besides the fact that they looked dangerous.

Infact there are many on ebay for people who like to watch Tv rather than keep there eyes on the road.

DRM (portable LW/.MW/SW) uses AAC. There are cheap chips for AAC. Even in software it's not the same league as H.264 MPEG4 video
Raw pre DAC data rate
Video 3 x 10MHz x 8bit DACs = 30M bytes per second (720x 576i)
Audio 2 x 0.048MHz x 16bit DACs = 0.192M bytes per second (48kHz sampling)

I've seen radios with pop-out 7" video screens. Such things should only be visible to passengers. I believe in UK it is illegal to have TV screen visible to Driver.
It's Dangerous Driving conviction if they catch a driver watching TV /Video here.

watty

MYOB wrote: »

Chicken and egg watty. There were DAB receivers available from day 1 of DAB. There are NO DTT radios available and no indications there ever will be, nor any indication that any country is ever going to use the idea.

So why do people in Germany listen to Radio on phones using DTT? DVB-h and DAB are doing badly there.

Virtually all countries simulcast all the main radio channels on DTT and Satellite. I wonder are there surveys of how much people use it?

DAB of course could do more local than Satellite or DTT. But not as local as FM. Which is why UK plan is to maintain community and smaller local stations on FM-VHF even if they do switch off the main FM radio channels.

Here many local radio regards DAB Muxes as too big and too expensive. Grand for National or stations for all of Dublin / Cork / Limerick /Galway. But those could and will likely be on DTT too.

STB

watty wrote: »

Here many local radio regards DAB Muxes as too big and too expensive. Grand for National or stations for all of Dublin / Cork / Limerick /Galway. But those could and will likely be on DTT too.

Main opponents to DAB are the radio station licence holders themselves.


Me, I love an oul anologue tuner with a spin dial and VU meters. Something magical about a nice warm sounding FM signal (preferably fed by an Optimod 8100A and Xt2). Old School.

watty

It's ironic though that many FM stations are so over processed and over compressed to be "louder" that playing your own 256k MP3s or a Satellite Receiver via an 8 euro "iTrip" is now better quality.

It's nice to have Memories on a Radio. But the UI to use or change them needs to be simple and obvious. Also to find "new" stations or what ever a DTT/Sat/DAB digital radio with decent display (2 line text only is pathetic) could display a "virtual" band with 4 letter abbreviations of stations like old radio scale.

Most Modern radios (some cheap All band Analogue are worst) have a terrible user interface assuming half a dozen stations will be set up once and for all when you buy it.

We need some decent designs of radio (FM, DAB or whatever). Not escapees from a student project MP3 player user interface. You could even have a pair of "Vu" style virtual meters on same LCD that display signal level and quality (BER, Eb/No, SNR). It doesn't need to be an expensive colour TFT. A cheap 64 x 256 mono display, even with half a different colour of tint and two colours of LED backlight would be less €4

scath

watty wrote: »

So why do people in Germany listen to Radio on phones using DTT? DVB-h and DAB are doing badly there.

Virtually all countries simulcast all the main radio channels on DTT and Satellite. I wonder are there surveys of how much people use it?

DAB of course could do more local than Satellite or DTT. But not as local as FM. Which is why UK plan is to maintain community and smaller local stations on FM-VHF even if they do switch off the main FM radio channels.

Here many local radio regards DAB Muxes as too big and too expensive. Grand for National or stations for all of Dublin / Cork / Limerick /Galway. But those could and will likely be on DTT too.

Have to say am with you on this one Watty. No reason why DTT radios can not be made available only reason is manufacturers haven't looked at the paradigm probably. Mobile phones is where its implemented. Of course mobile DTT sets are where they would be next. In analogue times, mobile TV sets didn't take off. But if mobile TV sets with widescreen did, you would probably see radio come into its own. Without, I don't know, its a regulatory and industry thing really.

The main thing going for it is quality of signal and spectrum efficiency isn't it. Already going to have digital radio on DTT so all that's needed is receivers to pick it up. So that's down to radio manufacturers to make up audio DTT kit. Think its worth emailing a radio manufacturer to see where's and why's.

Sam Russell

I always used to feel that it was easy to record a TV programme upto 7 days ahead on a VHS video recorder, but it was impossible to record a radio programme on any commercial hifi. Radio was always the orphan of comms, TV was the star.

watty

My Sony ICF2001D has timer recordings and you can wire a special cable to the Audio Tape recorder as it puts a DC signal or DC path (forget which) during recording time. The Timer recording will switch to any memory (with LW/MW/SW/AIR/VHF and AM, SSB or FM).

But you are correct. Very rare.

david23

watty wrote: »

So why do people in Germany listen to Radio on phones using DTT? DVB-h and DAB are doing badly there.

Virtually all countries simulcast all the main radio channels on DTT and Satellite. I wonder are there surveys of how much people use it?

The breakdown in the UK is here:

http://james.cridland.net/blog/clearing-up-those-digital-radio-listening-figures/

DAB 15.1%, digital TV 4%, online 2.9% (percentage of all listening).

In Scotland the BBC is proposing to replace the radio stations on DTT during the evenings with a Gaelic TV channel, BBC Alba. I guess the thinking is that very few people are using DTT for radio in the evenings.

watty

Of course MediaUK always has someone that knows that sort of stuff.

My mum was shocked to see me listening to RTE Radio on her Sky Box. She didn't know it did Radio.
"Can you put it back to TV or have you broken it!"
Her radio doesn't move from Radio Ulster. Where she lives RTE on actual Radio is LW only anyway,

L1011

watty wrote: »

So why do people in Germany listen to Radio on phones using DTT? DVB-h and DAB are doing badly there.

Phone usage is only one usage factor.

For the last time watty, there ARE NO DTT RADIOS. Stop wittering about DTT chipsets and mobile phones with DTT decoders, those are not radios.

watty

There are not DTT "Radios" in the broad range that "DAB" and "AM/FM" have.

http://www.media-broadcast.com/en/fernsehen/dvb-t.html

24 million DTT receivers have been sold to date (end of 2009), a large proportion of which are portable and mobile devices.

Promax TG130 (DTT portable receiver/player/recorder. No video)

2005 http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/articles/Portable-DTT-Radio-Demos-at-the-IFA.php

DAB might be a dying system, reviewing uptake world wide. I'm just considering alternatives.

ANY portable or HiFi connect device that does DTT, is inherently also a Digital Radio.

Any Sat receiver also a fixed Digital radio. Seriously un-portable. The Gnome wasn't the answer!

A phone can be MP3 player, FM Radio, DTT Radio/TV and snapshot camera. Many people now use their phone as main MP3 player and/or portable radio. If you have latest iPhone, it's best at everything except a phone.

Think outside the box:)

L1011

There's thinking outside the box, and there's thinking outside the packaging factory.

DTT will never be a radio transmission format, particularly not on UHF.

Well to be fair,I use my bedroom sony tv as a radio when I want to listen to the radio with the screen off.
It's ok as a fixed radio and obviously not mobile but a pretty cool way to listen to radio.Heat radio is on ukfreeview and the one I listen to most at the moment as it's add free and the music ain't bad.

dowtchaboy

watty wrote: »

Of course MediaUK always has someone that knows that sort of stuff.

My mum was shocked to see me listening to RTE Radio on her Sky Box. She didn't know it did Radio.
"Can you put it back to TV or have you broken it!"
Her radio doesn't move from Radio Ulster. Where she lives RTE on actual Radio is LW only anyway,

What is it with Northerners and Radio Ulster? My X-XYL's family used to freak if I turned the dial on the kitchen radio to get news from 2RN - Radio Eireann - "Athlone" - you know the Free State station - the knob had been set at R Ulster so long it was difficult to turn. It was OK to listen to the "Home Service" - OK the Light Programme - but for that you went to a different radio - where the knob was never moved etc. After a few visits to her home place they must have decided I was a keeper so another radio was placed in the kitchen for me to use to pick up my secret instructions from the Pope etc.

ABajaninCork

Has DAB reached Cork yet? Or is it a silly question??:cool:

Apogee

It's transmittted on Spur Hill in Cork, but the service has been on and off this past week.

watty

DAB stations will all also be be on Saorview and Saorsat.

But FM-VHF is not going away...
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fm-set-to-stay-as-radio-execs-consider-digitals-future-2263311.html

Britain and parts of Europe are planning to switch off their analogue signal in favour of Digital Audio Broadcasting (DAB), sparking fears that the same would happen here.

Standard radios can't pick up the digital signal, which would make them, and millions of car radios, obsolete.

RTE is already broadcasting DAB in parts of the country: the greater Dublin area; northeast Leinster; Cork city; and Limerick city.

It ran a trial for two years from 2006 to 2008 and now has a licence to broadcast on DAB. It has set up RTE Junior, RTE Choice, RTE Pulse, RTE Gold, RTE Chill and RTE 2XM, all of which are only available on digital.

Although some commercial stations used DAB during the two-year trial, none have since continued with the technology.

RTE head of radio operations JP Coakley is a supporter of DAB and says FM is not good enough for the future.

But campaigners against DAB -- which has already been branded an out-of-date technology -- feared the Government would follow Europe's lead and plan a switchover to it.

However, a spokesman for Communications Minister Eamon Ryan told the Sunday Independent: "Ireland has no plan to cease VHF-FM band II. Ireland never had such a plan.

"If digital radio delivery takes off, then it may be possible to phase out analogue radio, but there are many radios per household, so maybe 5-10 million FM radio receivers nationwide."

Former RTE engineer Enda O'Kane, who oversaw the broadcaster's technology for the northeast and parts of Dublin, has led the campaign against any changeover to DAB.

"This is very welcome news," he said.

"The fear always was that we would follow the digital route, making millions of FM radios redundant.

The ASO (Analogue Switch Off) is only for TV. Even in UK and rest of Europe this is not quite true:

Britain and parts of Europe are planning to switch off their analogue signal in favour of Digital Audio Broadcasting (DAB), sparking fears that the same would happen here.

It has been discussed but there has been no decision to do it. Even in UK when they discussed turning off FM Radio, it was only the main stations and only if a minority still used them. The idea was to keep smaller local and community stations on FM-VHF

Blog entry version: http://www.techtir.ie/watty/fmstaying (allows comments)