Bin charge protests and breastfeeding

Sparks

Originally posted by RainyDay
You're only fooling yourself, Threadkiller. This service has to be paid for - one way or other. The diesel doesn't get into the bin trucks for free.

He's not the one fooling himself Rainy, you are by believing that the government have your best interests at heart. The conclusion that this process has followed to in other parts of the country is full privitisation of waste collection followed by huge increases in the charges, usually thanks to a monopoly of the market.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks

You say that we are already paying for refuse collection through income tax. Well, DUH!! If a householder is not required to explicitly pay for a service, and it is provided by the local authority, and the local authority is funded by government, which is funded by taxation - then of course we've paid for it with our taxes! How the hell else was it paid for??

And this is acceptable as an argument from you but not from me? Hello?

So we're agreed so far - good.

[BTW, I don't personally recall disagreeing with you on that specific point - see below for the actual bone of contention.

But, here's the thing: it's not fair that way, and it's not working. So, a new system is introduced whereby people pay for the service.

And still having no problem with this, with a caveat...

Now the local authority (or a private company, as in my case) is being paid, and doesn't need funding for that specific service from central government. So therefore, we're not paying for it with our taxes anymore!

Why is this not clear to you?

It is clear to me. I don't understand why it's not clear to you that we're still paying for the original service though, and that that's what's causing the problems.

That's blatant nonsense, Sparks.

You've drawn the analogy that it's like getting a service and paying for it twice. Let's take my plumbing problem, for example. I picked up a part, and got billed for it. If I got billed twice, and paid the bill twice, then I've paid for something twice.

Newsflash: It's not a perfect analogy! In the case of taxation, I grant you that we continue to pay the same amount of direct and indirect tax, but the money goes somewhere else! In other words, now that Dubliners are paying for the collection of the refuse that they are generating, that portion of the taxes they and I were paying for it is now funding hospital beds, or extra gardai, or something worthwhile.

A representative one, yes, which doesn't work.

Show me an example of direct democracy in action. More to the point, show it to enough politicians to convince them that it's worthwhile, and get them to convince enough people to vote for them, and it might even happen. Hell, I might even vote for them!

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
These people have yet to prove their arguement of paying twice.

Wrong. Didn't read my posts, did you cork?

They have failed to show alternative policys to deal with waste.

This isn't about alternative policies for dealing with waste.

More than half of this countrys waste is being collected by private contractors. People outside Dublin have been paying bin charges for years. Just as we have no problem paying for ESB. We have no problem paying for bin charges.

Really? No problems at all?
Then why did a cork city counciller take the government to the supreme court over it and win, following several people being jailed in Cork city for protesting the bin tax two years ago???

People pay for drivers licences and motor tax.

Only once though...

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
The conclusion that this process has followed to in other parts of the country is full privitisation of waste collection followed by huge increases in the charges, usually thanks to a monopoly of the market.

Over 50% of waste is collected by private firms.

What is the waste management stratergy of these protesters?

Let them prove before the courts where they've paid twice.

Let the courts deal with them.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
We need to recycle, reduce and re-use. We need to get away from landfill alltogether.

And what's that got to do with this?

Payment by wieght as introduced in West Cork is the way to go. I am responsible for the rubbish I produce - not the courts, local authority or government.

Cork, you'd better keep quiet about that. If they ever introduce the polluter pays principle to boards.ie, you'll have the biggest bill...

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks
And what happens when the law is changed to outlaw protest?

Then - and only then - would I protest illegally. And believe me, I would.

Even when those preventing the service have paid for it themselves already and they're protesting being billed twice?

Yes, even then. And they're not being billed twice - see above.

Even when the law is changed to introduce those orders?

That's what the law is for.

Again, even when the law is changed to start the problem in the first place?

Again, that's what the law is for.

Laws change. It's not a FF/PD phenomenon.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks



This isn't about alternative policies for dealing with waste.

No, it is nothing to do with environmental responsibility.

Bury the stuff in a hole & it will disappear.

With a waste stratergy - Dublin has to reduce , recycle and re-use.

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Newsflash: It's not a perfect analogy! In the case of taxation, I grant you that we continue to pay the same amount of direct and indirect tax, but the money goes somewhere else! In other words, now that Dubliners are paying for the collection of the refuse that they are generating, that portion of the taxes they and I were paying for it is now funding hospital beds, or extra gardai, or something worthwhile.

Really?
Tell you what.
You prove that the extra cash is going to be ringfenced for schools, or hospitals, or even extra gardai on the beat, and I'll merrily pay it.
But you can't. As far as you know, the money is for a golden toilet seat on bertie's new jet. In the meantime, I just see us being double taxed.

Show me an example of direct democracy in action.

Switzerland.

More to the point, show it to enough politicians to convince them that it's worthwhile, and get them to convince enough people to vote for them, and it might even happen. Hell, I might even vote for them!

Wow. How naieve are you?
You want politicians to vote for something, anything, that would take power away from them and make them accountable to the people?
When pigs fly...

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
And what's that got to do with this?


Cork, you'd better keep quiet about that. If they ever introduce the polluter pays principle to boards.ie, you'll have the biggest bill...

So, you disagree with the "Polluers Pays Principle"?


Geogre W Bush's atitude to the Kyoto Accord has similarities?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Over 50% of waste is collected by private firms.
What is the waste management stratergy of these protesters?

And what has either of those sentences got to do with the topic?

Let them prove before the courts where they've paid twice.

Give them the chance. If I can show it here without any FOI requests and only on info made public voluntarily, they can show it there far more easily in a court with the power to request documents.

Let the courts deal with them.

Why? Fancy your chances more than the last time, when you lost?

Cork

I just see us being double taxed.

Irish people paid 36% standard rate tax during the 1980's.

We are paying nearly half of that now - as personal allowances have also been increased.

The paying twice thing used in the courts?

It would make more sense than other metods of protest?

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Then - and only then - would I protest illegally. And believe me, I would.

2001, november. Following a year of protests by bin tax protestors in Cork, a cork counciller takes the government to the supreme court and wins. The government then goes and changes the law to overrule the decision and make protesting illegal in one swoop.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks

Show me an example of direct democracy in action.

Switzerland.

I'm guessing that the Swiss are less greedy and short-sighted than the bin protesters.

The government then goes and changes the law to overrule the decision and make protesting illegal in one swoop.

It's not illegal to protest.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
No, it is nothing to do with environmental responsibility.
Bury the stuff in a hole & it will disappear.
With a waste stratergy - Dublin has to reduce , recycle and re-use.

Cork, again, this has nothing to do with waste disposal strategies.
Which is a good thing for the government, since their strategy is pitiful at best and downright daft for the most part...

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks
You prove that the extra cash is going to be ringfenced for schools, or hospitals, or even extra gardai on the beat, and I'll merrily pay it.
But you can't. As far as you know, the money is for a golden toilet seat on bertie's new jet. In the meantime, I just see us being double taxed.

I never mentioned ringfencing! Show me your itemised statement of what your taxes were spent on!

Sparks, it's simpler than you make out: The government takes in money. The government spends money. If the government doesn't have to fund waste collection, it has more money to spend on other things.

Switzerland.

I'll look into it.

Wow. How naieve are you?
You want politicians to vote for something, anything, that would take power away from them and make them accountable to the people?
When pigs fly...

So, you were serious about armed revolt? Come on now, seriously. This is obviously something you feel we should have. How do you propose to achieve it?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
So, you disagree with the "Polluers Pays Principle"?

Nope, and it's got nothing to do with this topic either cork.

Geogre W Bush's atitude to the Kyoto Accord has similarities?

You know, I know he doesn't read, but I think that you should still learn to write.
And Kyoto's got nothing to do with this topic either.

Cork

Over 50% of waste is collected by private firms.
What is the waste management stratergy of these protesters?

People outside Dublin have paid waste charges for years.

Local authories have power to introduce charges for any of its services.

In a perfect world - people would take responsibility for their refuse.

Burying it in a hole is no solution. Times have moved on to reduce, recycling and re-use.

Could somebody tell these protestors this?

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
I'm guessing that the Swiss are less greedy and short-sighted than the bin protesters.

Who said they were greedy and shortsighted?

It's not illegal to protest.

It is now that the local environment bill has been railroaded through the Dail and Seanad.

Cork

Has Joe Higgins any policy on strategic management of the waste problem or any of the other political groupings who are involved in these protests?

Has anybody a list of these groups?

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
I never mentioned ringfencing! Show me your itemised statement of what your taxes were spent on!

I have. See above. Where do you think the local government fund comes from?

Sparks, it's simpler than you make out: The government takes in money. The government spends money. If the government doesn't have to fund waste collection, it has more money to spend on other things.

Except that in this case, the government looks to local authority funding requests and says no. Which means that it's their problem to solve, not anyone elses.

I'll look into it.

Do that!

So, you were serious about armed revolt?

Oh, be serious...

Come on now, seriously. This is obviously something you feel we should have. How do you propose to achieve it?

That's the problem. How do you get people like FF to give up power for the common good?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Irish people paid 36% standard rate tax during the 1980's.
We are paying nearly half of that now - as personal allowances have also been increased.
The paying twice thing used in the courts?
It would make more sense than other metods of protest?

Cork, I'll answer that when you manage to post a coherent post.

Cork

I'm guessing that the Swiss are less greedy and short-sighted than the bin protesters.

Well - lets leave due process deal with them.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
It is now that the local environment bill has been railroaded through the Dail and Seanad.

So how come I saw a bunch of protestors outside City Hall a few days ago, with the police standing by doing nothing? Surely if protesting is now illegal, the police would have arrested them?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Has Joe Higgins any policy on strategic management of the waste problem or any of the other political groupings who are involved in these protests?
Has anybody a list of these groups?

That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand cork. We're not talking about waste disposal policies here, we're talking about funding. Get your argument together on the funding aspect and then post, okay?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Over 50% of waste is collected by private firms.
What is the waste management stratergy of these protesters?

That's nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People outside Dublin have paid waste charges for years.

That's false - people all over the country were protesting the bin tax two years ago, and it was a cork counciller that took the government to the supreme court and won.

Local authories have power to introduce charges for any of its services.

Under what act cork?

In a perfect world - people would take responsibility for their refuse.
Burying it in a hole is no solution. Times have moved on to reduce, recycling and re-use.
Could somebody tell these protestors this?

No need to cork - firstly, they know it, and secondly, it's got nothing to do with waste disposal policies.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
So how come I saw a bunch of protestors outside City Hall a few days ago, with the police standing by doing nothing? Surely if protesting is now illegal, the police would have arrested them?

Protesting outside the dail isn't illegal. Protesting effectively has been made illegal. As cork has shown, and as a quick read of the "debates" in the dail will show, the government has no problem with ineffective protests, they just turn off their ears and spout irrelevant platitudes on things that are totally off topic but sound related to the topic. Basic Spin 101.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Well - lets leave due process deal with them.

We did that 2 years ago and they won. Then FF changed the law to get their own way.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
No need to cork - firstly, they know it, and secondly, it's got nothing to do with waste disposal policies.

Recycling has nothing to do with waste disposal policies?

Protesting outside the dail isn't illegal. Protesting effectively has been made illegal.

So by "effective" protesting you mean what exactly? Blocking roads, denying other people services they have paid for, infringing on the rights of other people? If you can't make your point without resorting to that kind of harrassment of other people, then you must not have a very good point in the first place.

Cork

Do these anti bin protestors have any alternative to waste management to landfill?

recycling ,re-use, and reduction?

The government has built many civic amenity sites and bring centes around Dublin.

Dubliners - Recycle or Ye'd be back to "Dirty Dublin".

Cork

Originally posted by Meh
Recycling has nothing to do with waste disposal policies?
So by "effective" protesting you mean what exactly? Blocking roads, denying other people services they have paid for, infringing on the rights of other people? If you can't make your point without resorting to that kind of harrassment of other people, then you must not have a very good point in the first place.

Good Point. Preventing rubbish being collected is not effective protest.