Bin charge protests and breastfeeding

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
So the government takes all the PAYE tax money that they were spending on bin collection and burns it in a big pile in front of Leinster House? Don't be ridiculous -- that money that no longer has to pay for refuse collection goes into other government spending, like health and education.

Bollocks it does. Try Learjets and the Taoiseach's "Communicatons Department".

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
Bollocks it does. Try Learjets and the Taoiseach's "Communicatons Department".

I was expecting this response. Learjets and spindoctors are utterly insignificant compared with the amount of money the government spends on health, education and social welfare. The vast majority of the tax money saved by bin charges goes towards stuff like health and education.

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
I'm aware of your point, and I don't agree that it's a valid one. I'm not going to repeat myself any further explaining why I don't agree that it's valid. There's none so deaf as them that will not hear.

And that sentiment is why there are people standing in front of bin lorries...

Charging everyone on a polluter pays principle means that individual households pay according to the amount of refuse they generate. How do you do that through central taxation?

*sigh*
You don't. Go read my earlier posts please, I'm not here to type them in every time you get curious, that's what those little page number links at the bottom of the page are for.

I think I'm paying 250 per year here in Mayo. I'm paying a private operator for that. If someone comes along and offers to collect it for less, I'll probably switch to them.

Good for you. If you were living in Sligo, it'd be 700 euro. Louth is 420 euro, westmeath 416, longford 400, leitrim 400, waterford 390, and so on.
In other words, you've got a good deal. You're also in a minority.

Going by your last post, you want it funded from tax revenue.

Wrong.

Funny thing is, I always considered reasoned debate as a way for intelligent people to earn others' respect. I paid you the compliment of trying to earn your respect with reasoned argument. I had hoped for reciprocity, but if that's not why you're in this discussion, I'll stop. I'm genuinely saddened by your attitude, though.

Tell you what, if you can tell me how tall I am, I'll change my mind.
See, my name is easy to find (I was the PRO for a sports organisation for a few years so it had to be), but you'd have to have actually met me at some point to know how tall I am. And if you've never met me, and I've never heard of you (Hell, I don't even know who you are), why should I be broken over losing your respect? Odds are, I'll never even meet you or have any contact with you save through here.
In other words, be realistic.

Sorry Sparks, but that's apathy thinly disguised as cynicism. You can say "I couldn't be arsed because [whatever]", but you're still saying "I couldn't be arsed." Do something about it, or be apathetical - those are your choices.

Again, you're wrong. I have done things about it. I'm just more realistic about the odds of success than you seem to be, and believe in efficency - find the most likely method to succeed, and pursue it. History tells us that for FF, that method is corruption and bribery. You may not like that, I know I don't - but it's the way it is, for now.

That's because you didn't explain it.

Probably 'cos I've done so before in more than two or three threads.
Try here for the proper explaination (and all the regulars know the URL I'm about to give you ) :
http://www.noneoftheabove.ie/

It's an interesting idea, but you still have to find a way to make it happen.

See above. Of course, were we ever to find a legal way to force it to happen, you know what the outcome would be - the next government with a majority would write an act overturning it...

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
I was expecting this response. Learjets and spindoctors are utterly insignificant compared with the amount of money the government spends on health, education and social welfare. The vast majority of the tax money saved by bin charges goes towards stuff like health and education.

I'll forget about taking exception to the waste of ten million euros on a learjet and the loss of the resulting investment in the state airline, and instead I'll just say back to you what everyone is trying to say to me:

Prove it. Show me the figures.

(What, am I supposed to be the only one in here giving figures that don't come from a press department?)

IgnatiusJRiley

Originally posted by Sparks
Well, actually no. See, the law was the law was the law - and then the government changed it when the law turned out to be on the side of the protestors.

They changed it when the (democratically elected) politicians realised it needed changing. To this it is reasonable to protest but not so much so that people don't get their work done and others don't get a service they have (rightly) paid for.
I'm right, you're wrong.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
I'll forget about taking exception to the waste of ten million euros on a learjet and the loss of the resulting investment in the state airline, and instead I'll just say back to you what everyone is trying to say to me:

Prove it. Show me the figures.

Learjet: €8.4 million
Government spindoctors: €2 million

Total government spending in 2003: €36.7 billion

Combined cost of spindoctors and Learjets, as a percentage of total government spending: 0.028%

Sparks

Originally posted by IgnatiusJRiley
They changed it when the (democratically elected) politicians realised it needed changing.

You know, I could almost agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that they realised it needed changing once they were beaten in court, and the fact that rather than settle the dispute in a court with the protestors, they changed the law.
That's not democracy, that's continuing the mess. Had they gone to court and settled this two years ago like they should have done, the protests now wouldn't be happening, and you wouldn't be so irate.
Their cluster****, not anyone else's.
Play the blame game if you must, but at least do it right...

To this it is reasonable to protest but not so much so that people don't get their work done and others don't get a service they have (rightly) paid for.

In other words, so long as the protest is ineffectual and easily dismissed by those in power, it's fine. Actually risk effecting change though, and you're in the wrong?

I'm right, you're wrong.

Prove it.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
Learjet: €8.4 million
Government spindoctors: €2 million

Total government spending in 2003: €36.7 billion

Combined cost of spindoctors and Learjets, as a percentage of total government spending: 0.028%

That's not proof of what you stated though, is it? I asked for proof that the bin tax money was going to go on hospitals or schools or other such works, rather than on a learjet or the communications department, or other such abuses of public funds. You've not provided that proof.... yet.

Paddyo

No, we deserve not to be ****ed over because the government has a superiority complex.

I think maybe that you have an inferiroity complex - do you like any sort of 'authority'?

As a prime example of a family that worked harder, studied harder, saved harder, spent little and made great headway as a result, that's a load of bull. People that sit on their arses and believe the world owes them a living are generally the rich ones, not the poor ones. And unless you grew up poor, you won't understand that - nor will you understand how incredibly essential it is to not just abandon people on the dole like you're suggesting.

Your the person who has brought rich and poor into it. I agree that there are rich people who sit on their arses and expect all to be done for them. Show me where I suggested abandoning people on the dole - this is just you misreading a post to suit your own verbiage.

Prove it. So far on this thread I am the only poster that's posted verifiable facts or figures. You've just waffled and taken press releases from one side of the dispute as gospel.
Until you prove otherwise, I'll trust the FOI figures.

I trust what I see. Most of the bins I see waiting for collection have bin tags (Fingal).

It's fine for you, who probably never had to worry about where the next meal was coming from. Quite a few of us here, I suspect, grew up under slightly different circumstances - and dropping 700 euro for a service you were already charged for is just not an option. That 700 is marked out for college fees for the kids, or payments on a morgage (if you were lucky enough to get a morgage before the house market went ballistic), or food or rent or other essentials.

A really good case of presumtivitis. FYI - presumed incorrectly!

quote:

---

But most people dont agree with the methods of protest being employed by the anti bin charge campaign.

---

Really? Says who, Mary Harney? Bertie? The councils?
What you mean to say is that most people who give press conferences don't agree with the methods of protest

Ok - so we should believe the socialist party - silly me.

Then you'll be happy to know that I'm not protesting and I'm not in the SWP - as you'd know if you ever read what I post

You post so much crap that its hard to recnogise the solids from the diarhoea.

Really? Works though, doesn't it?
<looks at Sinn Fein in N.Ireland, Al Quaeda getting US troops out of Saudi Arabia, Fianna Fail gaining Ireland's Republic status...>

Great examples to pick - lets get the guns, bombs and hijack the planes - but you wouln't be doing it you would just be posting on a bulletin board about the great people who would.:)

Paddyo

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
That's not proof of what you stated though, is it? I asked for proof that the bin tax money was going to go on hospitals or schools or other such works, rather than on a learjet or the communications department, or other such abuses of public funds. You've not provided that proof.... yet.

You don't understand the way the government finances are run. All tax receipts, except for certain well-defined exceptions such as the plastic bag levy, go into one single central fund. Money is then disbursed from this fund to the various departments. The Minister can't say "Oh, I'm going to spend the income tax money on hospitals, and the money from VAT on schools", because all the tax money is lodged into one single account. So, in answer to your question, exactly 0.028% of the tax money no longer spent on refuse collection will now go to learjets and spindoctors.

Originally posted by Eamonn DeValera:
All revenues of the State from whatever source arising shall, subject to such exception as may be provided by law, form one fund, and shall be appropriated for the purposes and in the manner and subject to the charges and liabilities determined and imposed by law.

Sparks

Originally posted by Paddyo
I think maybe that you have an inferiroity complex - do you like any sort of 'authority'?

Yes, the sort that recognises that it's "authority" is extended by the people that voted it in, not by some deity. Hence the phrase "public servant"...

I trust what I see. Most of the bins I see waiting for collection have bin tags (Fingal).

Wouldn't that have more to do with the protestors putting tags on all the bins?
And have you actually surveyed all of Fingal?

FYI - presumed incorrectly!

Good. Then you should understand why paying twice for something isn't an option for many people.

Ok - so we should believe the socialist party - silly me.

Actually, no - you shouldn't believe them, they're politicians. But the figures from the FOI request came from the councils - and the reason why they're more trustworthy than the figures from a press release is that there are laws requiring FOI records to be correct - there are no such laws for press releases.

You post so much crap that its hard to recnogise the solids from the diarhoea.

And now we're into the "attach the poster" mindset.
When I called cork a liar, I could prove the point. Can you prove that I've posted incorrect data?

Great examples to pick - lets get the guns, bombs and hijack the planes

Which one of those three do you classify Fianna Fail under?

but you wouln't be doing it you would just be posting on a bulletin board about the great people who would.:)

Wow. You've never read any of my posts, have you?

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
So, in answer to your question, exactly 0.028% of the tax money no longer spent on refuse collection will now go to learjets and spindoctors.

That's incorrect. 0.028% of the 2003 budget paid for learjets and spindoctors. What percentage of the money that paid for waste removal is that? And don't say you can't find out, because I know you can, it's just involved. The local government fund was around the 580 million euro mark at the last time I heard (for some reason, that fund isn't that easy to find records on, unless I'm looking in the wrong place). Now find out how much of that paid for bin charges (there's a audit each year of all the local authorities and their budgets), and then the answer is simple. It'll be a lot more than 0.028% though, because that 580 million pays for everything, not just waste collection.

And before you say that's too much work, how do you think I got figures like the total number of spoilt votes in the last election for this thread?

Cork

Excellent editorial in todays Irish Examiner about the current "protests" in Dublin.

It highlighed - how little support the protesters actually have.

It then stated support for the polluters pay principle.



People have a civic duty to pay taxes. Local authorities have powers to impose charges for services they provide.

The ESB also charges for electricity. Do these "protesters" expect free electricity?

Do the expect free passports, driving licences, dog licences, parking etc?

Local Authories have imposed charges.


There is no going back.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
That's incorrect. 0.028% of the 2003 budget paid for learjets and spindoctors. What percentage of the money that paid for waste removal is that?

The learjet money wasn't taken out of the refuse collection money, it was taken out of the general government budget.

Victor

I must say it's the cleanest bin strike I've ever seen, all those black bins nicely lined up in rows

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
The learjet money wasn't taken out of the refuse collection money, it was taken out of the general government budget.

Which the refuse collection money also comes from, which means that money that could have been spent on refuse collection wasn't.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
Which the refuse collection money also comes from, which means that money that could have been spent on refuse collection wasn't.

If these people paid their refuse - the council might have more money for social housing, street cleaning and the environment.

Victor

Originally posted by Sparks
Which the refuse collection money also comes from, which means that money that could have been spent on refuse collection wasn't.

But only half of the council budget comes from the local government fund.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
Which the refuse collection money also comes from, which means that money that could have been spent on refuse collection wasn't.

Yes, and the exact difference was 0.028%. QED.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Excellent editorial in todays Irish Examiner about the current "protests" in Dublin.
It highlighed - how little support the protesters actually have.

Yes - incorrectly.
When they think that there are only 100 protestors, despite thousands showing up at Mountjoy to protest the jailing of TDs, they discredit themselves in the eyes of anyone with a brain.

It then stated support for the polluters pay principle.

Which has nothing to do with the protests.

People have a civic duty to pay taxes.

Not always.

Local authorities have powers to impose charges for services they provide.

For the fifth time cork, under what act?

The ESB also charges for electricity. Do these "protesters" expect free electricity?

No, they expect to only pay for it once. Same way they only expect to pay once for their waste collection.

Do the expect free passports, driving licences, dog licences, parking etc?

No, they expect to pay for each of those things just the once. Same as they only expect to pay once for their waste collection.

Local Authories have imposed charges.
There is no going back.

Bollocks. The supreme court ruled, but there was going back, wasn't there cork?

Cork

Originally posted by Meh
Yes, and the exact difference was 0.028%. QED.

Landfill costs have rocketed. Environmental Standards Cost €.


Years ago - you could dig a hole and bury trash.

The person who creates waste has a responsibility.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
Yes, and the exact difference was 0.028%. QED.

Nope.
~500 million in the local government fund. Of that, let's (purely for the sake of argument) say 50% goes on waste removal. That ~250 million. Now you're looking at ~4% not 0.028%.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Landfill costs have rocketed. Environmental Standards Cost €.
Years ago - you could dig a hole and bury trash.
The person who creates waste has a responsibility.

None of that has anything to do with what we're talking about.
Cork, how about you quit spouting irrelevant and silly soundbites and actually make an argument?

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

When they think that there are only 100 protestors, despite thousands showing up at Mountjoy to protest the jailing of TDs, they discredit themselves in the eyes of anyone with a brain.

The Examiner is a fine publication.

Local authorities have powers to impose charges for services they provide.

You seem to have no problems with local authorities imposing charges for driving licences?

But - imposing charges for refuse?

What services do you think local authorities should charge for?

Could you list the political groups who are protesting and the % national vote they received at the last election?

Did Dublin Councillors vote on these charges?

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
Nope.
~500 million in the local government fund. Of that, let's (purely for the sake of argument) say 50% goes on waste removal. That ~250 million. Now you're looking at ~4% not 0.028%.

Commercial Operators should take over the service from local authorities.

LOcal Authorities have more important issues to tackle than collecting bins.

I think the private sector will probably provide a more efficent service.

Over 50% of refuse is collected by commercial companies anyway.

Victor

Originally posted by Victor
But only half of the council budget comes from the local government fund.

Apologies it's only about 10% http://www.dublincity.ie/services/finance2.html

Originally posted by Sparks
When they think that there are only 100 protestors, despite thousands showing up at Mountjoy to protest the jailing of TDs`

Which TDs, I don't think anyone protested the jailing of Liam Lawlor (other than Liam Lawlor).

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
Nope.
~500 million in the local government fund. Of that, let's (purely for the sake of argument) say 50% goes on waste removal. That ~250 million. Now you're looking at ~4% not 0.028%.

You're making the completely unwarranted and unlikely assumption that the government took all the money to pay for the jet away from refuse collection.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
If these people paid their refuse - the council might have more money for social housing, street cleaning and the environment.

Those people did pay their refuse bill.
Now, if FF/PD government would stop wasting money on things that amount to abuses of public funds, we might have more money for needed services and works.

The Examiner is a fine publication.

Even though it's so inaccurate?

You seem to have no problems with local authorities imposing charges for driving licences?

Don't have a problem with it, but it's got nothing to do with the topic at hand.

But - imposing charges for refuse?

As I said cork, right from the first post, right through twenty-odd pages of posts, mostly to you, noone is saying they want a free service. They're saying they'll only pay once.

Could you list the political groups who are protesting and the % national vote they received at the last election?

Nope. 'Cos I don't care about the politicians, they're nothing more than white noise. All politicians are self-serving, though some (like Fianna Fail and Fine Gael) are worse than others by a large margin.
And this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Did Dublin Councillors vote on these charges?

Yup - 24 for, 21 against, one (gay mitchell) hiding in the toilets (no, I'm not joking), and five abstentions and one who didn't even show up for the vote. That was in 2002. Then this year, in January, they voted to raise the tax by 29%. The vote split, 23-23 and the lord mayor (*coughBertie'sBrothercough*) cast the deciding vote for the raise.

Commercial Operators should take over the service from local authorities.

They most assuredly should not. Privitisation would be a mistake, as has been shown time and again in this country (anyone remember Eircom?) and the UK (anyone remember Thatcher?) and we don't need to repeat mistakes, not with FF and the PDs making enough original ones for the next decade on their own.

LOcal Authorities have more important issues to tackle than collecting bins.

Not according to every piece of legislation written on L.A.s and waste management since 1996. Not according to the expensive as campaign that FF just paid for with our money and which started showing tonight on RTE. You disagreeing with Fianna Fail Cork? There may be hope for you yet!

I think the private sector will probably provide a more efficent service.

Doubtful. Far more likely that they'll provide a half-assed service that charges the maximum amount for the minimum amount of work needed. That's the free market for you...

Over 50% of refuse is collected by commercial companies anyway.

And over 98.5% of the waste in this country comes from sources other than private homes.
(Hey, if we're gonna quote irrelevant statistics...)

Originally posted by Meh
You're making the completely unwarranted and unlikely assumption that the government took all the money to pay for the jet away from refuse collection.

No, I'm saying that the money that should have gone on the bin charges got diverted elsewhere. How much of that does the learjet represent? Or the communications department? Or the other examples of abuse of public funds?
See where I'm looking at now?

Originally posted by Victor
Apologies it's only about 10%

And 20% from "other government grants" and 8% from other local authorities.[/quote]

Victor

Originally posted by Sparks
8% from other local authorities.

For services rendered - most likely water and sewerage Dun Laoghaire sewage is treated in the City Council plant in Ringsend, Tallaght water comes from City Council plants in the Dublin mountains.

Sparks

Originally posted by Victor
For services rendered - most likely water and sewerage

Yes, most likely - but had I submitted those figures, you can be sure I'd have been castigated for submitting vague data...