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08-11-2016, 12:29   #106
Dardania
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It could possibly play a role in maintaining grid inertia...be a pain to achieve in practice however
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08-11-2016, 12:50   #107
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It could possibly play a role in maintaining grid inertia...be a pain to achieve in practice however
possibly something that could come into play much further down the line. ie. when there is a mass of ev's out there and battery tech is at a level (in terms of capacity, durability and price point) whereby pinching 10% from an array of ev batteries may not be such a big deal?


..just a thought.
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08-11-2016, 13:09   #108
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It could possibly play a role in maintaining grid inertia...be a pain to achieve in practice however
possibly something that could come into play much further down the line. ie. when there is a mass of ev's out there and battery tech is at a level (in terms of capacity, durability and price point) whereby pinching 10% from an array of ev batteries may not be such a big deal?


..just a thought.
It could work two ways:
- load from vehicles to the grid (e.g. if there's a drop in frequency due to the wind not blowing, the EVs could export to the grid to ride through until some gas turbine somewhere spins up)
- load from the grid to the vehicles (e.g. the EVs could all be charging at 60% of their max rated power, and if the wind blows extra hard, and frequency starts increasing: the EVs could charge a bit faster, to act as a governer)
Very interesting talk on this topic in Engineers Ireland a few months ago
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08-11-2016, 13:16   #109
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It could work two ways:
- load from vehicles to the grid (e.g. if there's a drop in frequency due to the wind not blowing, the EVs could export to the grid to ride through until some gas turbine somewhere spins up)
- load from the grid to the vehicles (e.g. the EVs could all be charging at 60% of their max rated power, and if the wind blows extra hard, and frequency starts increasing: the EVs could charge a bit faster, to act as a governer)
Very interesting talk on this topic in Engineers Ireland a few months ago
Well.... on the basis that that wouldnt involve alot of kWh's being sent/received and the inconvenience of having to plug the car in all the time I'd need them to pay me a standing charge for my services!

Seriously though, based on what I've seen/read so far I dont see the value proposition for end users. It seems useful to the grid more than the end user. I'm not going to inconvenience myself everyday for a few measly quid.

I guess we need to see where it goes and what they pay end users and then run the numbers.
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08-11-2016, 13:23   #110
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It could work two ways:
- load from vehicles to the grid (e.g. if there's a drop in frequency due to the wind not blowing, the EVs could export to the grid to ride through until some gas turbine somewhere spins up)
- load from the grid to the vehicles (e.g. the EVs could all be charging at 60% of their max rated power, and if the wind blows extra hard, and frequency starts increasing: the EVs could charge a bit faster, to act as a governer)
Very interesting talk on this topic in Engineers Ireland a few months ago
Well.... on the basis that that wouldnt involve alot of kWh's being sent/received and the inconvenience of having to plug the car in all the time I'd need them to pay me a standing charge for my services!

Seriously though, based on what I've seen/read so far I dont see the value proposition for end users. It seems useful to the grid more than the end user. I'm not going to inconvenience myself everyday for a few measly quid.

I guess we need to see where it goes and what they pay end users and then run the numbers.
I would doubt that any money would change hands for this - I'd say if they were serious about it, they'd be formulating regulations about behaviour of EVs being imported to the country.
It will become a more pertinent issue in time as grids move away from nice big spinning masses of metal to wind power etc...but guessing how grid operators think, they would probably rather Rotary UPS type kit installed around the country to ride through disturbances.

Interesting thread on slashdot about new Tesla buyers having to pay for their supercharger use: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/11/07/2029251/new-tesla-buyers-will-have-to-pay-to-use-superchargers
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09-11-2016, 10:51   #111
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It could work two ways:
- load from vehicles to the grid (e.g. if there's a drop in frequency due to the wind not blowing, the EVs could export to the grid to ride through until some gas turbine somewhere spins up)
- load from the grid to the vehicles (e.g. the EVs could all be charging at 60% of their max rated power, and if the wind blows extra hard, and frequency starts increasing: the EVs could charge a bit faster, to act as a governer)
Very interesting talk on this topic in Engineers Ireland a few months ago
was at that

wasn't impressed, technically its understandable , but commercially theres no model that makes sense
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09-11-2016, 10:56   #112
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Well.... on the basis that that wouldnt involve alot of kWh's being sent/received and the inconvenience of having to plug the car in all the time I'd need them to pay me a standing charge for my services!

Seriously though, based on what I've seen/read so far I dont see the value proposition for end users. It seems useful to the grid more than the end user. I'm not going to inconvenience myself everyday for a few measly quid.

I guess we need to see where it goes and what they pay end users and then run the numbers.
The idea would be that , say all chargers would be fitted with two way energy flows and telemetry. SO its not that you have to change anything, you just use your car as normal.
The V2G company buys energy from you ( all of you ) and acts as a short term generator to the grid.

the issue I could never get a handle on , is that by definition, the sale price of generator energy is far less then the costs that would have to be paid to you to recharge at retail energy prices. Hence I could never get a answer on the economic model of this technology
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09-11-2016, 10:59   #113
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It could work two ways:
- load from vehicles to the grid (e.g. if there's a drop in frequency due to the wind not blowing, the EVs could export to the grid to ride through until some gas turbine somewhere spins up)
- load from the grid to the vehicles (e.g. the EVs could all be charging at 60% of their max rated power, and if the wind blows extra hard, and frequency starts increasing: the EVs could charge a bit faster, to act as a governer)
Very interesting talk on this topic in Engineers Ireland a few months ago
was at that

wasn't impressed, technically its understandable , but commercially theres no model that makes sense
at best, we'll see a centrally controlled load shedding of non instant loads (like EVs) in times of load grid supply capability.
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09-11-2016, 11:14   #114
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at best, we'll see a centrally controlled load shedding of non instant loads (like EVs) in times of load grid supply capability.
without massive upgrading of domestic charge points, I cant see that happening , The ESB technical report does not see any particular issue with supporting wide scale domestic charging ( other then certain infrastructure improvements to the grid )
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13-11-2016, 19:50   #115
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Just reading the http://www.dttas.ie/public-transport/english/alternative-fuels-infrastructure paper.

They mention the idea of EVs in future being used to store variable wind power for the grid...

I'll debate the topic at an intellectual level until the cows come home, but I'd be very worried to see it as part of policy....

Anyone else have thoughts on the paper?

Seems a much less technical, more political piece, compared to the CERs
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14-11-2016, 12:52   #116
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Just reading the http://www.dttas.ie/public-transport...infrastructure paper.

They mention the idea of EVs in future being used to store variable wind power for the grid...

I'll debate the topic at an intellectual level until the cows come home, but I'd be very worried to see it as part of policy....

Anyone else have thoughts on the paper?

Seems a much less technical, more political piece, compared to the CERs
Why would it concern you if it were part of policy? Policy doesnt mean it would be mandatory.

The paper has some aspirational and crystal ball stuff in it (e.g. Hydrogen fuel cells etc) and they are just throwing out the possibilities that exist and requesting feedback.

Supporting V2G as a policy wouldnt bother me. I just dont think I'd sign up to it myself. I'd need to see some facts/figures before I'd allow them take power out of my car.
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21-11-2016, 11:46   #117
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Originally Posted by Dardania View Post
Just reading the http://www.dttas.ie/public-transport...infrastructure paper.

They mention the idea of EVs in future being used to store variable wind power for the grid...

I'll debate the topic at an intellectual level until the cows come home, but I'd be very worried to see it as part of policy....

Anyone else have thoughts on the paper?

Seems a much less technical, more political piece, compared to the CERs
Why would it concern you if it were part of policy? Policy doesnt mean it would be mandatory.

The paper has some aspirational and crystal ball stuff in it (e.g. Hydrogen fuel cells etc) and they are just throwing out the possibilities that exist and requesting feedback.

Supporting V2G as a policy wouldnt bother me. I just dont think I'd sign up to it myself. I'd need to see some facts/figures before I'd allow them take power out of my car.
To answer your question, the reason I would be concerned if V2G were actively used for grid stability purposes is it would suggest that more "controlled" methods of grid stability weren't being provided. And we would be at risk of brown outs etc. as a result.
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31-01-2017, 10:31   #118
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CER decision timeframe

FYI:

I was wondering when a decision was going to be made so I asked.
They have replied and said "... expecting to publish a decision paper in Q2 2017."
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31-01-2017, 10:35   #119
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FYI:

I was wondering when a decision was going to be made so I asked.
They have replied and said "... expecting to publish a decision paper in Q2 2017."
Was curious also myself...
Hopefully it is so they can implement everyone's idea nicely!
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31-01-2017, 10:43   #120
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FYI:

I was wondering when a decision was going to be made so I asked.
They have replied and said "... expecting to publish a decision paper in Q2 2017."
How soon thereafter is it likely that a 'decision' is implemented? i.e. what's the normal timeline for these types of consultative processes in this regard? Immediate implementation or is there some other red tape/delay until implementation?

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Was curious also myself...
Hopefully it is so they can implement everyone's idea nicely!
We live in hope! With a bit of luck, they will have learned something from what Ecars tried to plough through back in Nov '15.
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