CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

cros13

Well the latest commercially available rapid chargers in that range support from 322kW (efacec HV350) to 475kW (Tritium Veefil-PK).

Probably the first car capable of charging in that range will be Porsche's Mission E or one of Tesla's next designs.

You need to account for the practicalities of the size of (and cooling of) cable needed to carry that kind of current at the expected ~800-1000V and also for the ramp up and ramp down.

I think the reasonable limit for the medium term for passenger vehicles will be ~400kW for a 90-120kWh pack.
With ramp up and down you'd be able to get 60kWh from the rapid charger in 10 minutes or so with manageable stresses on the cabling and pack.

Water John

Thanks for that. Was wondering about the batteries ability to withstand the fast charge being used on a regular basis, at this level.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

With ramp up and down you'd be able to get 60kWh from the rapid charger in 10 minutes

So without having to go in and queue and pay, not really any longer than it takes today to get petrol / diesel. There are some of these chargers installed and working already and the cars that can take 350kW are what, maybe 2-3 years away?

liamog

Interesting video that looks at charging rates. There are certain assumptions made, but at least they are called out.

A 320kW charger running with 800V 400A could do ~350km in 10 minutes.

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

Thanks for that. Was wondering about the batteries ability to withstand the fast charge being used on a regular basis, at this level.

Li technology can actually withstand 20 C charging, so in theory a 50 kWh battery could be charged at 1000kW !.

The Radio control boys are often using very high rates on LiPo , hence the recommendations to charge in a fireproof box!

the issue is controlling battery run-away

at present practically 2C is close to a functional limit , i.e. 60 kw on a 30 Kwh battery etc , otherwise significant battery cooling is needed as well as significant battery management

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

So without having to go in and queue and pay, not really any longer than it takes today to get petrol / diesel. There are some of these chargers installed and working already and the cars that can take 350kW are what, maybe 2-3 years away?

charging at 350 kw ?, Id say longer then that , there are also very serious grid issues to be solved

Id say 10 years myself

liamog

The Ioniq charges at up to 2.5C (70kW). I'd like to hope the next-gen of EVs don't regress.

unkel

So a budget EV has 30kWh in 2017, 40kWh in 2018 and about 60kWh in 2019.

2.5 * 60 = 150kW within 2 years. Another few years from there to 350kW, but surely not more than 8?

It doesn't just have to take a doubling in battery Kwh to allow the battery take twice the charging current, a chemistry advancement could achieve this but as it is now ev batteries there is a trade off, something's got to give.

As BoatMad mentioned in a previous post here or in another thread, LiPo offers extremely high charge and discharge rates, some of the RC LiPo cells can charge at 15C and discharge at 90 C (continuous) with no form of cooling. The downside is shorter life cycle, though now over 600 cycles compared to about 300 just 5 years ago and they are dangerous and can't be charged or stored in the house unless in a guaranteed fireproof location though they are more stable today I still would not ever trust them.

When I was messing around with my Ebike projects I strung some packs in series then in parallel and make a very high powered pack that was tiny, it was 60 V 10ah capable of propelling me to 40 mph with the motor I had but the acceleration was mental pulling 10 Kw peak all on a mountain bike and with only cheap 20 C LiPo cells.

No other battery cell available to buy at the time and probably still today can offer high power ebike projects in such a small size.

cros13

I think up to 4C is achievable for automotive cells in the 5 year time frame without too much in the way of tradeoff.
That's also roughly what Porsche is looking at for the Mission E. 80% charge of a 90kWh pack in 15 minutes.

And 4C would allow for the 120kWh temperature controlled pack in my example to charge 60kWh in 10 minutes with ramp up and down.

unkel

So 5 years rather than 10. But maybe for more upmarket cars (and not so much econoboxes). That said, 60kWh will give a lot of range for your 10 minute stop. Not as quick as fossil fuel just yet, but a reasonable enough compromise. And who wants to drive for 300-350km without getting out for a quick break anyway?

Water John

If it halves one's motoring fuel costs then, 15 mins, once or twice a week shouldn't be an issue for any body.
As fast as refueling with petrol/diesel, is not the criteria, I would set.
It just needs to be quick enough, and accessible, not to be a PITA.
How you scientifically measure that amount of time???

unkel

Yeah the 5-10 minutes that I have mentioned here before (as a target), might just be a tad optimistic, going forward when even econobox EVs have far bigger batteries than they have now. But 10 minutes or a bit more I would have no problem with, even if I had to charge a couple of times in one day on a long return trip.

cros13

Well in fairness with 400-500km range EVs the majority of Irish owners would be rapid charging 4 or 5 times a year tops because home charging will meet 95%+ of their needs.

It's really apartment-dwellers, people with only on-street parking and tourists that will be depending on rapids. And taken together those groups are a minority.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

So 5 years rather than 10. But maybe for more upmarket cars (and not so much econoboxes). That said, 60kWh will give a lot of range for your 10 minute stop. Not as quick as fossil fuel just yet, but a reasonable enough compromise. And who wants to drive for 300-350km without getting out for a quick break anyway?

+1

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

If it halves one's motoring fuel costs then, 15 mins, once or twice a week shouldn't be an issue for any body.
As fast as refueling with petrol/diesel, is not the criteria, I would set.
It just needs to be quick enough, and accessible, not to be a PITA.
How you scientifically measure that amount of time???

The interesting thing will be to see if public fast charging will ever be commercially profitable ( both Capex and Op ex) , personally I have my doubts , as long as alternatives to public charging are available , home grid and off grid methods, this will seriously undermine the economics of public charging

Remember petrol and diesel refuelling works commercially , because its a closed shop , you cant make the stuff at home, and you are forced to refuel in a " designated " facility , in essence creating a captive market

The same is not true for electricity , which is easily generated , and stored even by " amateurs "

Dardania

BoatMad wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

If it halves one's motoring fuel costs then, 15 mins, once or twice a week shouldn't be an issue for any body.
As fast as refueling with petrol/diesel, is not the criteria, I would set.
It just needs to be quick enough, and accessible, not to be a PITA.
How you scientifically measure that amount of time???

The interesting thing will be to see if public fast charging will ever be commercially profitable ( both Capex and Op ex) , personally I have my doubts , as long as alternatives to public charging are available , home grid and off grid methods, this will seriously undermine the economics of  public charging

Remember petrol and diesel refuelling works commercially , because  its a closed shop , you cant make the stuff at home, and you are forced to refuel in a " designated " facility , in essence creating a captive market

The same is not true for electricity , which is easily generated , and stored even by " amateurs "

The financial incentive is that public charging providers get ancillary income from you - similar to how reportedly Applegreen makes more profit from coffee than fuel.

BoatMad

Dardania wrote: »

The financial incentive is that public charging providers get ancillary income from you - similar to how reportedly Applegreen makes more profit from coffee than fuel.

it still remains to be seen if a purely commercial process can be achieved

Apple green makes more profit from coffee then fuel, but it still makes a profit from fuel

thats the point

Water John

Well the fuel side, isn't at a loss and draining profits, just not making a lot. Is that the bar by which FCPs will be installed? Profits from ancillary services?

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

Well the fuel side, isn't at a loss and draining profits, just not making a lot. Is that the bar by which FCPs will be installed? Profits from ancillary services?

I cant see FCPs beings installed on the profits from coffee , no

Dardania

I reckon so. And that incentive will discourage public charge operators from charging you up too fast until they've made a profit from people during their charging sessions

cros13

Latest from CER:

The CER is currently in the process of developing its decision in relation to CER/16/286. The CER expects to publish a Decision Paper on the ESBN Electric Vehicle Pilot and Associated Assets shortly.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Latest from CER:

I got the same email! They went from saying end of Aug and now we are close to the end of Sept and they are saying "shortly".

My guess is they are waiting for the minister to make the decision for them.

If you're expecting anything in the budget forget it, the charging network won;t even be mentioned !

They're rather charge the tax payer 1.2 Billion for useless smart meters !

Dardania

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're expecting anything in the budget forget it, the charging network won;t even be mentioned !

They're rather charge the tax payer 1.2 Billion for useless smart meters !

Not to drag the thread too far off topic- any ideas of what these new meters will actually do from the consumers perspective? Be great if they could optimize power draw internally (e.g. signal to car when to take power for charging)

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

Not to drag the thread too far off topic- any ideas of what these new meters will actually do from the consumers perspective? Be great if they could optimize power draw internally (e.g. signal to car when to take power for charging)

I think they will just automatically provide meter readings via SIM cards to ESB Networks. They will do that 48 times a day and you will then be able to monitor your usage via a web portal of some kind.

I don't think they will do anything fancier than that.

The providers will, of course, be able to devise all sorts of additional tariffs around that data.

Dardania

KCross wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Not to drag the thread too far off topic- any ideas of what these new meters will actually do from the consumers perspective? Be great if they could optimize power draw internally (e.g. signal to car when to take power for charging)

I think they will just automatically provide meter readings via SIM cards to ESB Networks. They will do that 48 times a day and you will then be able to monitor your usage via a web portal of some kind.

I don't think they will do anything fancier than that.

The providers will, of course, be able to devise all sorts of additional tariffs around that data.

Half hour intervals - not the worst to get an idea of how you’re using power.

I’m wary to ask for one of the smart meters for the exact reason about additional tariffs - something tells me having a fry up and a cup of tea at 6pm on a wet December evening will be monetised. Might get away with it for a while as I only recently got a digital day/night meter fittted a few years ago.

You can buy energy monitors that connect to the meter, simple and much cheaper. And doesn't need to be sending data to anyone......

I submit my own meter reading.

This 1.2 Billion would go a very long way towards upgrading the charging infrastructure.

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

Half hour intervals - not the worst to get an idea of how you’re using power.

I’m wary to ask for one of the smart meters for the exact reason about additional tariffs - something tells me having a fry up and a cup of tea at 6pm on a wet December evening will be monetised. Might get away with it for a while as I only recently got a digital day/night meter fittted a few years ago.

There is also mention of this:

Additional functionality will be made available by ESBN through a Home Area Network (HAN). This will allow consumers to access real-time data on their household energy usage via a device in their home.

So maybe there will be the possibility of using this realtime data to drive anything you like.

Funding for FIT and grant for solar PV would be a much better idea !