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roundabout question

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  • 13-03-2007 5:34pm
    #1
    mkennedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭


    hi.
    I have a roundabout query that someone might be able to answer...

    i'm about to enter a small roundabout -no vehicles on it but there's a guy approaching fast from the road on my right (he's about 10 yards from roundabout but approaching fast while i'm about to enter roundabout).

    I continue on to roundabout expecting him to slow down/stop as I got onto roundabout before him (and he should yield to traffic on roundabout ie me, right?)

    however he continues at same speed onto roundabout without stopping because nobody is coming from his own RIGHT.

    at this stage i'm still completing my turn on the roundabout and he nearly t-bones me from the right braking heavily.

    who is in the wrong in this scenario?


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Comments

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    #2
    timmywex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭timmywex


    well, ghe didnt obey the yield/stop sign so he is in the wrong


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    #3
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    This question was debated in this thread
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055036563

    I don't think there was any definite conclusion though.


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    #4
    LFCFan
    Moderators Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭LFCFan


    Traffic coming from the Right always has Right of Way on a Roundabout.


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    #5
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    I'd disagree. The OP would be in the wrong. Just because you reach the roundabout first doesn't mean you have right of way - give way to traffic approaching from the right (don't need to be already on the roundabout)


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    #6
    scaldybelt
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭scaldybelt


    I would have thought that if you saw him approaching at speed from the right, then even though they weren't on the roundabout when you could have entered it, 10 yards isn't a lot of space for someone to stop - even if they wanted to - at a small roundabout!!

    My guess is it would be hard to argue for either party in front of a Garda!
    They could argue that you didn't yield to traffic from the right.
    You'd be arguing that they were speeding - but yet you knew that as you entered the roundabout, hence an accident could have been avoided by you stopping.

    Only my tuppence worth (and I've been in both scenarios previously).


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    #7
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    You give way to traffic coming from your right. Not traffic on the roundabout. Yield does not mean stopping or slowing down. It means giving the right of way to traffic coming from your right. If there is nothing coming you keep going.

    You obviously saw him coming from your right. he had the right of way and you should have yielded. If he had hit you in the side you would have been in the wrong.


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    #8
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,434 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Jimoslimos wrote:
    I'd disagree. The OP would be in the wrong. Just because you reach the roundabout first doesn't mean you have right of way - give way to traffic approaching from the right (don't need to be already on the roundabout)
    I disagree with your disagreement. The rule, as I understand it is that traffic joining a roundabout must yield to traffic already on the roundabout, which of necessity is coming from the right, but that's not the point.

    Essentially as far as priorities go, a roundabout is nothing more than another section of road, albeit circular in shape and one-way, with lot's of T-junctions coming off it. To say that you should give way to people coming from the right, who haven't yet joined the roundabout makes no sense if you look at it like that. I mean, would you give way to someone joining the road you're coming onto at a T-junction who was joining at another T-junction 20m down the road?

    The RoTR says
    The following should also be carefully noted:
    You should: Treat the roundabout as a normal junction, which means you yield right of
    way to traffic approaching on the roundabout.


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    #9
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    According to UK law
    "Vehicular traffic approaching a roundabout should give way to vehicular traffic circulating on the carriageway of the roundabout"

    That seems pretty clear.

    Some of the responses to this thread are pretty scary.


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    #10
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Well I'd disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement:)
    Alun wrote:
    Essentially as far as priorities go, a roundabout is nothing more than another section of road, albeit circular in shape and one-way, with lot's of T-junctions coming off it.
    If the roundabout is just another section of road, then you should give way to all traffic approaching from the right (on or off the roundabout). Especially since this was a mini-roundabout there was no way the OP could have made the turn without clearing the road quick enough.


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    #11
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    I think were covered by Irish Law :)

    According to the Irish rules of the road:

    For a roundabout it says:
    "You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction, which means you yield right of way to traffic already on the roundabout."

    For a junction:
    "Where roads forming a junction are of equal importance you must yield to traffic on your right."

    its a moot point to give way to traffic that is ahead of you on the roundabout.


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    #12
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,434 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    dil999 wrote:
    I think were covered by Irish Law :)
    .. which are (for these purposes) the same as UK law, except they word things much better, and less ambiguously than we do :)
    For a roundabout it says:
    "You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction, which means you yield right of way to traffic already on the roundabout."
    Yes, that's what I said .. don't see how that supports your point?
    For a junction:
    "Where roads forming a junction are of equal importance you must yield to traffic on your right."
    This is intended for situations like in housing estates, where there are no other road markings indicating who has priority, such as a Yield or Stop sign.


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    #13
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,434 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Jimoslimos wrote:
    If the roundabout is just another section of road, then you should give way to all traffic approaching from the right (on or off the roundabout).
    How can traffic not actually on the roundabout be approaching from the right? And how far back from the Yield sign at the approach to the roundabout do they have to be exactly to be considered to be "approaching". You could be waiting all day to join a roundabout if you to took that to it's (il)logical conclusion.

    Try thinking about the situation I described with two T-junctions joining the same road within 20m of each other, you wouldn't consider a car pulling up to the other T-junction as coming from the right, would you? Doesn't make any sense.


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    #14
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    Alun wrote:
    .. which are (for these purposes) the same as UK law, except they word things much better, and less ambiguously than we do :)


    Yes, that's what I said .. don't see how that supports your point?

    This is intended for situations like in housing estates, where there are no other road markings indicating who has priority, such as a Yield or Stop sign.


    Its intended for all junctions, the signage just reaffirms the rule. Roundabouts do not always have yield signs. you treat them as a junction. you give way to traffic coming from your right whether they are on the round about or approaching the roundabout. Its very clear.

    Can I ask if you have a full licence?

    Dill


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    #15
    yayamark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭yayamark


    looking at these answers i se why our insurance premiums are sky high compared to other eu countries.
    if your on the roudabout u control it
    if you see a car coming at speed on to the roundabout for gods sake wait for the fool to go in front of you
    its all about common sense not legal jargon to get all tied up on.


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    #16
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    [QUOTE=
    if your on the roudabout u control it
    [/QUOTE]


    Not true. If you barrell onto the roundabout when its not safe to do so because a car is approaching from the right and you are on the roundabout whe he ploughs in the side of you then you are in the wrong.

    The simple rule is give way to traffic coming from your right. be that at a junction or on a roundabout.

    I drive a lot and the amount of people I see out there who cant safely use roundabouts is really really scary.


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    #17
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,434 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    dil999 wrote:
    Can I ask if you have a full licence?
    I have a full licence, yes, and I got it in a country that had roundabouts long before 99.9% of Irish drivers had even seen one, let alone knew what they were for, thank you very much. :rolleyes:

    Traffic that has not yet joined the carriageway of the roundabout is quite simply not on the roundabout, and cannot in any sane, reasoned way, be considered to be coming from your right .. they're on a different section of road.

    I'm off to install my new LCD telly .. much more interesting than discussing the rules of the road with people who haven't got a clue. Bye!


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    #18
    yayamark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭yayamark


    Not true. If you barrell onto the roundabout when its not safe to do so because a car is approaching from the right and you are on the roundabout whe he ploughs in the side of you then you are in the wrong.

    who said anything about barrelling in to a roundabout?

    you have misunderstood me completely!

    if you are on the roundabout u control it people can only get on when you have made your way around


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    #19
    yayamark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭yayamark


    didn't know lcd telles needed ti be installed?:rolleyes:


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    #20
    frodi
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭frodi


    As above, if he was going so fast that you could not clear the roundabout before he entered then you should slow down and give way. Common sense rather than legal rights & wrongs. You might be legally right and therefore win the post mortem.


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    #21
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    Alun wrote:
    I have a full licence, yes, and I got it in a country that had roundabouts long before 99.9% of Irish drivers had even seen one, let alone knew what they were for, thank you very much. :rolleyes:

    Traffic that has not yet joined the carriageway of the roundabout is quite simply not on the roundabout, and cannot in any sane, reasoned way, be considered to be coming from your right .. they're on a different section of road.

    I'm off to install my new LCD telly .. much more interesting than discussing the rules of the road with people who haven't got a clue. Bye!


    If its coming from your right its coming from your right, be it on the roundabout or approaching the roundabout, and if it has to brake to avoid hitting into the side of you then you are absolutely in the wrong.

    Also its advisable to follow the rules of the road in the country that you are driving rather than the one you originally got your licence in :rolleyes:

    (Were those roundabouts you refer to, the ones that the Romans built? :) )

    Enjoy your new Telly


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    #22
    mkennedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭mkennedy


    thanks lads for your replies - didn't think it would start such a heated debate, I thought there was a black and white answer tbh.

    after reading this and the other recent thread from what I can see, there is no definite consensus on this (or am I wrong?)

    I suppose there's 2 issues:
    1) the legal issue where I still suspect in an accident I would not be in the wrong (you yield to traffic already on the roundabout only, nothing about traffic down the road approaching the roundabout afaik).

    2) the common-sense approach of avoiding an accident by leaving the guy off (even though he's wrong??) and waiting a couple of seconds.

    tbh in the past I used to think like a lot of the posters here who say "yield to everything on your right and if nothing's coming from the right fück everyone else" :p

    but now I tend to think the other way ie you need to yield to those who got on the roundabout before you...


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    #23
    Sandwich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Sandwich


    mkennedy wrote:
    I suppose there's 2 issues:
    1) the legal issue where I still suspect in an accident I would not be in the wrong (you yield to traffic already on the roundabout only, nothing about traffic down the road approaching the roundabout afaik).

    2) the common-sense approach of avoiding an accident by leaving the guy off (even though he's wrong??) and waiting a couple of seconds.

    Surprised at your conclusion. Many are making the erroneous analysis for two reasons :

    1) they reason that because the roundabout is a 'road' and the other car is not yet on that road(ie. roundabout) they are therfore not 'on your right', therfore you have the right of way.
    This is incorrect
    2) they take the correct statement "cars on the rb before you have the right of way" to a false negative extrapolation - "cars not on the rb before you do not have the right of way"
    Again incorrect to do so.

    If you do not make that mistake, and instead correctly regard that the car is on your right, then you end up with your point 2) above- your common sense approach follows automatically - and according to the rules of the road!


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    #24
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    Get out the "rules of the road book" and read it. There is no abiguity no confusion. They even have nice pictures to explain things

    "Where roads forming a junction are of equal importance you must yield to traffic on your right."

    "You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction"

    You yield to traffic coming from your right, whether or not they are on the roundabout or not. If you dont believe you can enter the junction (or roundabout) and be through it safely before the car coming from you right approaches then you yield to that car.

    Sorry to be so in your face about this one, but as I said I drive a lot and I see so many near misses at roundabouts its scary. Particularly the small ones.

    If you don't know the rules of the road you should not be driving.


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    #25
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    to Sandwich

    Thanks God! I thought I was alone :)


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    #26
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,961 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    dil999 wrote:
    Get out the "rules of the road book" and read it. There is no abiguity no confusion
    At the front of each edition it states: "This booklet is not an interpretation of the law"


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    #27
    mkennedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭mkennedy


    apologies for my uncertainty but i'd just like to get a definitive answer- that's why I posted :)

    however you have to admit there is disagreement/uncertainty/opinion in the responses as well (apart from a couple of posters)

    ok so the issue is whether the rb is to be treated as a junction or a road in itself.
    alun says road.
    dil999 says junction.

    tbh dil999 I am actually reconsidering your "rb as junction" argument - this was how i used to think before as well.

    btw, just another query: what about cars stationery on a rb with cars coming from the right.
    should such stationery cars not be on the rb in the first place so as to let cars from the right thru.


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    #28
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mkennedy wrote:

    btw, just another query: what about cars stationery on a rb with cars coming from the right.
    should such stationery cars not be on the rb in the first place so as to let cars from the right thru.

    Assuming that the traffic is backed up from another obstruction on one of the exits from the rb, then merge in turn joining but leave a gap for traffic to cross and leave via other exits that are not blocked.


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    #29
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,961 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    mkennedy wrote:
    what about cars stationery on a rb with cars coming from the right.
    should such stationery cars not be on the rb in the first place so as to let cars from the right thru.
    In roundabouts where this is a regular occurance, a yellow box is sometimes used to alleviate the problem. The main roundabout at Dublin Airport is an example of where it is in place.


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    #30
    TJJP
    Registered Users Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭TJJP


    October 2006, Rules of the Road, post public consultation, pre-publication, summary extract:

    ROUNDABOUTS

    The specific rule relating to roundabouts is contained in Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997- article 15 requires that “a driver shall enter a roundabout by turning to the left”

    You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction, which means you yield right of way to traffic already on the roundabout.

    As you approach a roundabout you should take note and act on all the information available to you, including traffic signs, traffic lights and lane markings which direct you into the correct lane. You should

    • Decide as early as possible which exit you need to take,
    • Mirrors - Signal – Mirrors- Manoeuvre at all stages,
    • Signal your intentions in good time as to give other road users appropriate warnings,
    • Get into the correct lane,
    • Adjust your speed and position to fit in with traffic conditions,
    • Be aware of the speed and position of all the traffic around you.

    When you reach the roundabout you should;

    • give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights,
    • pay attention to vehicles already on the roundabout; be aware of their signals and try to judge their intentions,
    • look forward before moving off to make sure traffic in front has moved off,
    • be aware of the presence of cyclists/motorcyclist alongside you before moving off.


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    #31
    mkennedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭mkennedy


    Wishbone Ash wrote:
    In roundabouts where this is a regular occurance, a yellow box is sometimes used to alleviate the problem. The main roundabout at Dublin Airport is an example of where it is in place.

    just wondering then about the legalities of someone stationery on a roundabout (yellow box or not)and a guy coming from the right as I described in my first post is unable to stop in time and broadsides them.

    seems the guy from the right would be at fault then I suppose.

    whereas if you're moving slowly on the roundabout behind other traffic there's no defence-you got to get out of his way, right?


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