roundabout question

BrianD3

ninja900 wrote:

Who's supposed to give way to who is all very well as a subject for debate, but out on the road in the real world it's largely irrelevant. What matters is who's going to give way to who. It's all very well having a theoretical right of way but if the other guy looks like he's not going to stop, you'd be crazy to insist on proceeding.

You'd be crazy to proceed if a collision is inevitable. But at the same time, taking evasive action at the merest hint of danger is the other extreme IMO. Maybe I'd have a slightly different attitude on a bike.

I believe in the OPs case a collision is not inevitable or even likely. If the OP fails to give way to drivers not yet on the roundabout the likely outcome is that they lift off/brake and then get irate with the OP because they perceive he has "cut them up"

I'd generally err on the side of caution myself and generally DO yield to drivers not yet on the roundabout. Perhaps I should be more assertive. One scenario where I do tend to be assertive is when dawdlers try to merge into the side of my car when I'm travelling on a motorway. Unfortunately, there is a general opinion in this country that merging traffic has priority and that drivers on the mainline are obliged to facilitate them. When in fact the opposite is the case. "Courteous" driver who immediately jump into the overtaking lane to facilitate mergers perpetuate this myth.

connundrum

I know that this is veering a small bit from the topic but it still has to do with roundabouts and giving way.

When coming up from the underground carpark in Santry OmniPark, traffic coming from the left never gives way to the right. Recently I wasn't to bothered about it until in the past three occassions when I've turned out onto the roundabout and a car from the left has kept coming - thereby cutting me off and nearly clipping my nose.

Now this pisses me off to no end, as its a small roundabout and people treat it as a straight piece of road. Tonight it happened again and a girl in a Punto cut me off, so at the next traffic light I got out and knocked on her window and said - Give way to the right! To which she responded - Get a life! But thats beside the point tbh.

I have always thought, and am having my thoughts confirmed that Irish people make up rules as they go along, and are happy to continue doing so as long as no one gets hurt. Its a joke. Its a small roundabout, therefore the normal rules of the road don't apply. :rolleyes:

From now I will be taking number plates and reporting people for dangerous driving. So what if it gets me nowhere, at least somewhere there will be a record of my complaint. Better to do a little something than nothing at all.

BrianD3 wrote:

Unfortunately, there is a general opinion in this country that merging traffic has priority and that drivers on the mainline are obliged to facilitate them. When in fact the opposite is the case. "Courteous" driver who immediately jump into the overtaking lane to facilitate mergers perpetuate this myth.

Agreed 100%. I am sick of people thinking that once they are indicating that they have the automatic right to move out. Bus drivers are especially guilty of this crime.

I have to admit that I will pull into the overtaking lane upon spotting an onramp, due to nothing else only a fear of someone thinking that they have the right to swerve into me. About a year ago on the M50 I was puttering along on the inside lane, went past an onramp, and a car came down and was running along at the same speed as me. I kept going and so did he. I knew that he'd have to pull out soon and was wondering when he would, then he stuck on his indicator and made a move for me to move across. When I didn't he swerved in my direction - not close, but dangerous enough. I just sped on and left him there. People don't realise that its their responsibility to enter traffic flow safely, not other driver's!

dil999

BrianD3 wrote:

Don't quote out of context please. The correct quote is:


When the ROTR refers to junctions and roundabout in the same sentence it is referring to traffic entering the roundabout in terms of yielding to traffic already on the roundabout.

It is entirely relevant. A roundabout is not a junction of equal importance either. The presence of "yield" signs on entry is a giveaway here...as is the quote "Vehicular traffic approaching a roundabout should give way to vehicular traffic circulating on the carriageway of the roundabout

I was not quoting out of context. I was just quoting the the first part of the sentence the second part does not negate the first.

"You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction" has exactly the same meaning whether or not you add a further clause that states "which means you yield right of way to traffic already on the roundabout"

A roundabout is a junction of equal importance. All roads into the junction have yield signs. It would not be a junction of equal importance if some of the roads into the junction had yield signs and some had not.

All roundabouts are not like perfectly symmetrical junctions with 4 road leading into a circular carriageway. Many have 2 of the roads meeting at a point with no "carriageway of the roundabout" between them. So does that mean you dont yield to the guy coming down the road to your right cause hes not of the "carriageway of the roundabout" as you refer to it

Yes you yield to traffic on the roundabout thats coming from your right, but thats only one aspect of roundabout driving. You must also yield to traffic that is approaching the roundabout, if you cannot make it safely through before they reach you.

There is no change of speed limit entering a roundabout. If you can clearly see that there is nothing coming from your right, and you can maintain your current speed safely through the roundabout then you do so.

Its really frightening the amount of people who don't know the rules of the road and seem to have their own theories on what rules apply in certain situations. I'm signing off this thread as its done to death, but I'll join a "yellow box question" thread if someone starts one. :rolleyes:

Regds
Dil

BrianD3

dil999 wrote:

I was not quoting out of context. I was just quoting the the first part of the sentence the second part does not negate the first.

"You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction" has exactly the same meaning whether or not you add a further clause that states "which means you yield right of way to traffic already on the roundabout"

Well anyone should be able to see that it has a different context if you leave off the 2nd part of the quote. The quote is telling you what to do IN TERMS OF yielding to traffic already on the roundabout

In any case, there is no such thing as a "normal junction". The ROTR is just using this as a convenient term to drum home the message that you yield when entering a roundabout, just as you yield at many other junctions. It is badly phrased. Also don't forget that the ROTR is a guidance document which interprets the road traffic acts. The ROTR is not the actual law.

A roundabout is a junction of equal importance. All roads into the junction have yield signs. It would not be a junction of equal importance if some of the roads into the junction had yield signs and some had not.

So what about the looped piece of road that isn't an exit or entrance. Yes that's right the ROUNDabout. Where's the yield sign on that section of road?There isn't any. Once on the roundabout you are not obliged to yield to those wishing to enter. Traffic on the roundabout clearly has priority over traffic wishing to enter the roundabout. Therefore the roundabout is not a "junction of equal importance". Now you could say that the roundabout is a major road road off which are a series of minor roads of equal importance to each other.

All roundabouts are not like perfectly symmetrical junctions with 4 road leading into a circular carriageway. Many have 2 of the roads meeting at a point with no "carriageway of the roundabout" between them. So does that mean you dont yield to the guy coming down the road to your right cause hes not of the "carriageway of the roundabout" as you refer to it

In theory, yes. Same rules apply to mini roundabouts.

Yes you yield to traffic on the roundabout thats coming from your right, but thats only one aspect of roundabout driving. You must also yield to traffic that is approaching the roundabout, if you cannot make it safely through before they reach you.

Source? Can you can find me anything, anywhere that specifically mentions yielding to traffic *approaching* the roundabout from your right.

There is no change of speed limit entering a roundabout. If you can clearly see that there is nothing coming from your right, and you can maintain your current speed safely through the roundabout then you do so.

And you also give way to other vehicles on the roundabout, whether you percieve them to be coming from your right or not. One thing is for sure - bulling through the roundabout at unabated speed because you don't see anything coming from your own right is dangerous. Perhaps the earlier idea about putting speed ramps on the approach would be a help

Its really frightening the amount of people who don't know the rules of the road and seem to have their own theories on what rules apply in certain situations. I'm signing off this thread as its done to death, but I'll join a "yellow box question" thread if someone starts one. :rolleyes:

Sounds like you are the one who is unsure. You keep telling people to read the ROTR and question whether they have a full licence or not. Yet you have not really provided any decent evidence in the thread to backup your own point of view.

Mind you, your POV would be shared by probably 95% of Irish drivers. Doesn't mean it's necessarily right. See earlier post about people not understanding the rules for merging onto M-ways.

BTW yellow boxes have been done to death here several times

dil999

Brian,

I really hope I never meet you at a junction.

S.I. No. 182 of 1997.ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997

Yielding Right of Way

8. (1) Save as otherwise indicated by a traffic sign in respect of which an article in these Regulations refers, a vehicle shall yield right of way where a provision of this article applies.

(2) When starting from a stationary position a driver shall yield the right of way to other traffic and pedestrians.

(3) A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction shall yield the right of way to another vehicle which has commenced to turn or cross at the junction in accordance with these Regulations and to a pedestrian who has commenced to cross at the junction in accordance with these Regulations.

(4) A driver of a vehicle entering a public road from a place which is not a public road shall yield the right of way to all vehicles and pedestrians proceeding in either direction along the public road.

(5) A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction by a road which is not a major road shall, notwithstanding that there is no traffic sign indicating that the last mentioned road is a major road, yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians on the major road.

(6) A driver approaching a road junction to which sub-article (5) does not apply shall yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians approaching the junction from the right by another road.

(7) A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction and intending to turn right at the junction shall yield the right of way to a vehicle approaching on the same road from the opposite direction and intending to proceed straight through or turn left at the junction.

(8) A driver shall not drive from one traffic lane to another without yielding the right of way to traffic in that other lane.

I'm sure you'll find some wonderfully imaginative interpretation that supports your point. I look forward to reading it. But I'll leave you with the last word. as there really is no point in replying.

Wishbone Ash

connundrum wrote:

When coming up from the underground carpark in Santry OmniPark, traffic coming from the left never gives way to the right

In my experience, it's even worse if you are entering the Omni Centre and wish to take the 3rd exit at that roundabout (to go to McDonald's or the filling station). Traffic approaching seem to think it's a 'straight' road and I've been 'blown' out of it a few times although they usually then realise that it is a roundabout. I'm not the aggresive type but I do enjoy when people sink a little lower in their seats following their little outburst.

TheNog

Look, its a bloody roundabout, the rules are simple and use common sense. If u see someone speeding towards the roundabout u are waiting on, then let them off on their way. If u wanna take that the chance of injury then proceed and hope to get on the roundabout and make sure u are hit from behind. Then it is not ur fault but will need witnesses that the other driver was speeding.

Basically u must yield to traffic from the right. If you are on the roundabout u have the right of way unless it is a 2 or 3 lane roundabout in which case u must be sure u are in the right lane to exit.

mkennedy

at the risk of perpetuating the resurrection of this thread can I just clarify that imo my manoeuvre was not actually aggressive/suicidal.

the remarkable thing about the scenario was that the other driver had time to slow down on seeing me pull out but only chose to do so at the last minute, braking heavily. it's not that he saw me too late or anything.

maybe he just felt that despite the fact that my car was visibly partly in his path (while I was completing my turn) that he had the right to aggressively push on.

what I will say is he looked fairly sheepish/apologetic about it afterwards tbh (If that's relevant). there was no trace of indignation on his part whatsoever.

BrianD3

dil999 wrote:

I really hope I never meet you at a junction.

I hope I never meet you at a roundabout

S.I. No. 182 of 1997.ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997

Yielding Right of Way

8. (1) Save as otherwise indicated by a traffic sign in respect of which an article in these Regulations refers, a vehicle shall yield right of way where a provision of this article applies.

(2) When starting from a stationary position a driver shall yield the right of way to other traffic and pedestrians.

(3) A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction shall yield the right of way to another vehicle which has commenced to turn or cross at the junction in accordance with these Regulations and to a pedestrian who has commenced to cross at the junction in accordance with these Regulations.

(4) A driver of a vehicle entering a public road from a place which is not a public road shall yield the right of way to all vehicles and pedestrians proceeding in either direction along the public road.

(5) A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction by a road which is not a major road shall, notwithstanding that there is no traffic sign indicating that the last mentioned road is a major road, yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians on the major road.

(6) A driver approaching a road junction to which sub-article (5) does not apply shall yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians approaching the junction from the right by another road.

(7) A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction and intending to turn right at the junction shall yield the right of way to a vehicle approaching on the same road from the opposite direction and intending to proceed straight through or turn left at the junction.

(8) A driver shall not drive from one traffic lane to another without yielding the right of way to traffic in that other lane.

I'm sure you'll find some wonderfully imaginative interpretation that supports your point. I look forward to reading it. But I'll leave you with the last word. as there really is no point in replying.

Well why don't you address the specific points I've made. Quoting the law and not explaining why exactly you think it supports your point is no good.

For instance sub article 6 that you highlight above does not apply to roundabouts. For the very last time, a roundabout is not a junction of equal importance. The reason has already been explained numerous times by both myself and Alun and I'm not going to do it again. Also, sub articles 1,2,3,4,7 and 8 are irrelevant to the OPs question.

My last post in this thread. We'll have to agree to disagree.