roundabout question

Wishbone Ash

mkennedy wrote:

just wondering then about the legalities of someone stationery on a roundabout (yellow box or not)and a guy coming from the right as I described in my first post is unable to stop in time and broadsides them.

seems the guy from the right would be at fault then I suppose.

whereas if you're moving slowly on the roundabout behind other traffic there's no defence-you got to get out of his way, right?

Common sense should prevail. A driver entering a roundabout with stationary traffic should have adapted his speed to suit the conditions. For example, a green light means you can proceed only if your way is clear and it is safe to do so.

shltter

Reading this thread makes me realise why our road deaths are so high

People in this country are obsessed with being in the right rather than avoiding an accident.

For the record you should yield to all traffic approaching from the right and all traffic already on the roundabout (ie if someone has already entered the roundabout but is driving slow then you are not entitled to drive into them because you are coming from their right)

If you arrive at the roundabout at the same time you should let the traffic from your right clear the roundabout first unless you can safely clear the roundabout without interfering with them.

Above all you should try to avoid any collision even if you believe that you are in the right.

Wishbone Ash

shltter wrote:

Reading this thread makes me realise why our road deaths are so high

I was thinking the same thing.

shltter wrote:

People in this country are obsessed with being in the right rather than avoiding an accident.

Above all you should try to avoid any collision even if you believe that you are in the right.

I'm sure anyone who frequently drives slow and heavy vehicles will have experienced situations where, on entering a clear roundabout, some little príck will come shooting in from the right learning on his horn. Do these morons not realsie that, when the truck/bus/tractor etc. commenced it's manoeuvre onto the roundabout, there was nothing coming from the right!

Alun

Let me get this straight. You're all saying that if you're approaching a roundabout, you're slowing down, preparing to stop if necessary, looking to your right and you see a vehicle approaching the roundabout from an exit to your right, that you'll always stop and let them join first? Even if it's a large roundabout, and there's a gap big enough that you could easily join the roundabout in front of them without inconveniencing them in any way?

Now don't get me wrong, if I'm approaching a roundabout and I see someone approaching the roundabout who clearly doesn't look like he's going to stop and is just going to plough on through regardless, I'll stop. I'm not about to sacrifice my life for a point of law, despite some rather snide comments on this thread to the contrary. I'm not that stupid, really I'm not.

Jimoslimos

Alun wrote:

I have a full licence, yes, and I got it in a country that had roundabouts long before 99.9% of Irish drivers had even seen one, let alone knew what they were for, thank you very much. :rolleyes:

I also got my full license in that same country. My understanding is that if you perform a manoeuveur that causes another driver (no matter how dangerously they are driving) to take evasive action (emergency brake, swerve, etc) you are in the wrong.

I think the OP's query was in regard to mini-roundabouts which tend to be treated differently to normal ones. Example; Driver turning right at a mini-rb will observe traffic coming towards him rather than traffic from the right

shltter wrote:

Reading this thread makes me realise why our road deaths are so high

People in this country are obsessed with being in the right rather than avoiding an accident.

For the record you should yield to all traffic approaching from the right and all traffic already on the roundabout (ie if someone has already entered the roundabout but is driving slow then you are not entitled to drive into them because you are coming from their right)

If you arrive at the roundabout at the same time you should let the traffic from your right clear the roundabout first unless you can safely clear the roundabout without interfering with them.

Above all you should try to avoid any collision even if you believe that you are in the right.

Agreed - excellent post

Jimoslimos

Alun wrote:

you'll always stop and let them join first? Even if it's a large roundabout, and there's a gap big enough that you could easily join the roundabout in front of them without inconveniencing them in any way?

No. As I said in my previous post, if you can join the roundabout without causing the other driver to take evasive action then that's fine. In such way its similar to a normal junction where traffic is joining a major road from a minor one. Traffic approaching is not an issue as long as you can perform the manoueveur safely.

Alun

Jimoslimos wrote:

I also got my full license in that same country. My understanding is that if you perform a manoeuvre that causes another driver (no matter how dangerously they are driving) to take evasive action (emergency brake, swerve, etc) you are in the wrong.

Agree 100%, but that wasn't really the point being argued was it? I still maintain that in many instances it is perfectly safe to enter a roundabout when there is someone else approaching the roundabout (i.e. not yet on it) from the right. There will also be many instances, depending on the speed of the other driver, the size of the roundabout, the distance between the two exits in question and a host of other criteria when it will not be. Surely that's the whole thing about "yielding" or "giving way" whichever way you want to phrase it, performing your manoeuvre in such a way as to not cause the driver of the other vehicle any inconvenience by making him brake or slow down unnecessarily. In that respect it's no different to simply turning out onto a major road at a T-junction, you judge the distances and speeds involved and make your judgement.

I got the impression that some posters were arguing that whatever the circumstances, that if you're at a roundabout waiting to join, and there's a car approaching the roundabout from the right that you should allow them to join first. Again, in some circumstances that may be a wise decision, but in general all it does is waste roundabout "bandwidth".

I think the OP's query was in regard to mini-roundabouts which tend to be treated differently to normal ones. Example; Driver turning right at a mini-rb will observe traffic coming towards him rather than traffic from the right.

Also agree 100%. "Official" mini-roundabouts or even just "normal" ones that are very small, or have exits very close to one another require slightly different treatment.

dil999

Alun wrote:

Agree 100%, but that wasn't really the point being argued was it? I still maintain that in many instances it is perfectly safe to enter a roundabout when there is someone else approaching the roundabout (i.e. not yet on it) from the right. There will also be many instances, depending on the speed of the other driver, the size of the roundabout, the distance between the two exits in question and a host of other criteria when it will not be. Surely that's the whole thing about "yielding" or "giving way" whichever way you want to phrase it, performing your manoeuvre in such a way as to not cause the driver of the other vehicle any inconvenience by making him brake or slow down unnecessarily. In that respect it's no different to simply turning out onto a major road at a T-junction, you judge the distances and speeds involved and make your judgement.

I got the impression that some posters were arguing that whatever the circumstances, that if you're at a roundabout waiting to join, and there's a car approaching the roundabout from the right that you should allow them to join first. Again, in some circumstances that may be a wise decision, but in general all it does is waste roundabout "bandwidth".

Also agree 100%. "Official" mini-roundabouts or even just "normal" ones that are very small, or have exits very close to one another require slightly different treatment.

Not sure if you a referring to me there, If so I didn't mean to give that impression. I think we are actually agreeing

as I said in an earlier post:

"You yield to traffic coming from your right, whether or not they are on the roundabout or not. If you dont believe you can enter the junction (or roundabout) and be through it safely before the car coming from you right approaches then you yield to that car."

the corrollary being that if you feel it is safe to continue through the rb you do so.

shltter wrote:

People in this country are obsessed with being in the right rather than avoiding an accident.

While I agree with your post 100% I think its really important that people are crystal clear on the the rules of the road. Its not just about being in the right.
If everyone followed them you would alway know what other drivers are going to do in any given situation, and hence the number of accidents would be drastically reduced.

I got my first drivers licence many years ago in the US (west coast) where they have very few roundabouts, but almost everyone obeys the rules of the road and it is a country where its always a pleasure to drive, with the exception of Manahattan.) I also did my test here (many years ago ) and while the test is much more technical, it yields a lot of very poor drivers

Alun

dil999 wrote:

"You yield to traffic coming from your right, whether or not they are on the roundabout or not. If you dont believe you can enter the junction (or roundabout) and be through it safely before the car coming from you right approaches then you yield to that car."

the corrollary being that if you feel it is safe to continue through the rb you do so.

I think we actually agree too, it's just that I was being somewhat pedantic in my interpretation of the phrase "yield". I still say you can't really "yield" to someone who hasn't actually joined the roundabout yet since they're not yet on the bit of road, the roundabout itself, that you have to yield to ... if you get my drift. What you can, and indeed should, do is anticipate that by the time you yourself join the roundabout they would have already joined it themselves and therefore be classed as traffic coming from the right. That's not really "yielding" in my book, it's anticipation and common sense, but as I said, I'm a pedantic so-and-so sometimes

BTW if you want real excitement, try some of the roundabouts that can still be found on the continent (which are fortunately a dying breed) where traffic coming onto the roundabout has priority, and traffic on the roundabout has to stop to let them on.

dil999

I've driven in France a few times, and that can be fun, especially in a manual when you find youself reaching down with your left hand and grabbing the window winder instead of the gear which are on the other side.

How's your new telly?

Alun

dil999 wrote:

I've driven in France a few times, and that can be fun, especially in a manual when you find yourself reaching down with your left hand and grabbing the window winder instead of the gear which are on the other side.

Although I was born and bred in England, I lived on the continent for 21 years before moving here 6 years ago, 13+ years in Holland and 7+ in Germany, so I've plenty of experience of driving on the both sides of the road. I have to say that I had few problems adapting either when over in the UK on holiday, or when I moved here. What did cause the most problems was that I always walked to the wrong side of the car to get in! .. but once I was driving it all slotted back into place again.

How's your new telly?

Brilliant .. mind you it should be for what it cost Now I'll be able to watch the Australian Grand Prix in luxury!

BrianD3

I'd agree with Alun. The roundabout is its own section of road and it also has at least one junction so that may be what the ROTR is referring to when it mentions junctions. The roundabout is a road with one or more side roads/junctions. The difference between the roundabout and any other road with side roads is that the roundabout is a loop. Traffic on the roundabout/main road has priority over vehicles wishing to enter the roundabout/main road. If someone barrels up to a roundabout and hits a vehicle that has already entered it then it's the same as someone entering a main road from a side road and hitting someone who has previously entered from another side road.

The general yield to vehicles from your right rule is as Alun says a general rule for when priority may not be clear.

If you are driving along a main road and you come to a junction which is like an inverted "Y" and you are on the left of the inverted Y then traffic from the minor road is approaching from your right. That doesn't mean they have priority over you. So this rule does not apply in all situations as some posters seem to be implying.

I agree that it is better to be safe than right and dead and I stated this in the original thread. However you still have to assume some competence in other drivers. Otherwise you'd have to come to a dead stop every time you came to a junction while driving along a main road in case someone coming from the minor road decides to ignore their stop sign and keep going.

It would be interesting to see what would happen in a driving test if you were waiting to enter a roundabout and "Yielded" to a vehicle which was still a distance away from the roundabout but approaching fast from your right. I believe you would be marked down for not making progress.

Altreab

Alun wrote:

I think we actually agree too, it's just that I was being somewhat pedantic in my interpretation of the phrase "yield". I still say you can't really "yield" to someone who hasn't actually joined the roundabout yet since they're not yet on the bit of road, the roundabout itself, that you have to yield to ... if you get my drift. What you can, and indeed should, do is anticipate that by the time you yourself join the roundabout they would have already joined it themselves and therefore be classed as traffic coming from the right. That's not really "yielding" in my book, it's anticipation and common sense, but as I said, I'm a pedantic so-and-so sometimes

BTW if you want real excitement, try some of the roundabouts that can still be found on the continent (which are fortunately a dying breed) where traffic coming onto the roundabout has priority, and traffic on the roundabout has to stop to let them on.

Now how about been pedantic on this roundabout
http://www.swindonweb.com/life/lifemagi0.htm

Alun

Altreab wrote:

Now how about been pedantic on this roundabout
http://www.swindonweb.com/life/lifemagi0.htm

I've actually driven round that one. Not as difficult as you'd initially think if you imagine it being stretched out a bit when it then becomes just a big circular road with lots of individual roundabouts spread around it.

The "interesting" aspect of it is that if you say want, for example, to exit at the exit immediately to your right as you enter, you actually have two options. Either go all the way around the outside taking each little mini-roundabout in turn, or (the shorter option) take the second exit at the first mini roundabout , going around the inside of the main roundabout the 'wrong' way for a short distance, and then take the second exit at the second mini roundabout to exit. (Hope I've got that right!).

dil999

Alun wrote:

I've actually driven round that one. Not as difficult as you'd initially think if you imagine it being stretched out a bit when it then becomes just a big circular road with lots of individual roundabouts spread around it.

The "interesting" aspect of it is that if you say want, for example, to exit at the exit immediately to your right as you enter, you actually have two options. Either go all the way around the outside taking each little mini-roundabout in turn, or (the shorter option) take the second exit at the first mini roundabout , going around the inside of the main roundabout the 'wrong' way for a short distance, and then take the second exit at the second mini roundabout to exit. (Hope I've got that right!).

My Brain just exploded

Alun

dil999 wrote:

My Brain just exploded

Here's a page that shows it in a bit more detail. If you click on the "Bird's Eye View" link at the bottom of the page you can even see an aerial photo of the thing

mkennedy

BrianD3 wrote:

Traffic on the roundabout/main road has priority over vehicles wishing to enter the roundabout/main road. If someone barrels up to a roundabout and hits a vehicle that has already entered it then it's the same as someone entering a main road from a side road and hitting someone who has previously entered from another side road.

from what I discern from dil999's posts he is adamant that this is not the case.
his view seems to directly oppose the above.
there still seems to be disagrement on this tbh..

BrianD3

Reading back through the thread I now believe that dil999 has made a flawed argument.
The quote from ROTR:
"You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction, which means you yield right of way to traffic already on the roundabout."
Does not support his POV, in fact it's the opposite.

And this combined with:"Where roads forming a junction are of equal importance you must yield to traffic on your right"
also does not support his POV either on its own or in conjunction with the earlier quote.

The whole point is that you treat a roundabout as a junction in that you yield to traffic already on the roundabout, as has already been stated this is the same principle as yielding to traffic on a main road when pulling out of a T junction. As for yielding to traffic on your right when roads at a junction are of equal importance - the latter is not the case for a roundabout. The roundabout itself is of "greater importance" than the roads leading on to it. And due to the fact that the roundabout is in a loop any vehicle on the roundabout could be said to be to the right of any vehicle waiting to join the roundabout from any side road - even if the vehicle on the roundabout is "ahead" of the vehicle waiting to join.

I can see this thread going around in circles so I'll go back to the original quote which I think sums it up best
"Vehicular traffic approaching a roundabout should give way to vehicular traffic circulating on the carriageway of the roundabout"

dil999

BrianD3 wrote:

The roundabout itself is of "greater importance" than the roads leading on to it. And due to the fact that the roundabout is in a loop any vehicle on the roundabout could be said to be to the right of any vehicle waiting to join the roundabout from any side road - even if the vehicle on the roundabout is "ahead" of the vehicle waiting to join.

OMG! :eek:

From the rules of the road (again :rolleyes: )

"Where roads forming a junction are of equal importance you must yield to traffic on your right."

"You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction"

A T junction is not a junction of equal importance, and is not relevant ot the argument. Read the rules of the road.

BrianD3

dil999 wrote:

"You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction"

Don't quote out of context please. The correct quote is:

You should treat the roundabout as a normal junction, which means you yield right of way to traffic already on the roundabout

When the ROTR refers to junctions and roundabout in the same sentence it is referring to traffic entering the roundabout in terms of yielding to traffic already on the roundabout.

A T junction is not a junction of equal importance adn is not relevant to teh argument

It is entirely relevant. A roundabout is not a junction of equal importance either. The presence of "yield" signs on entry is a giveaway here...as is the quote "Vehicular traffic approaching a roundabout should give way to vehicular traffic circulating on the carriageway of the roundabout

Alun

Alun wrote:

BTW if you want real excitement, try some of the roundabouts that can still be found on the continent (which are fortunately a dying breed) where traffic coming onto the roundabout has priority, and traffic on the roundabout has to stop to let them on.

Yep, had a near miss in Holland in the early eighties, half way round and a car shot in front of me, :eek: stamped on the anchors and fecked him out of it. Then Quickly realised that everyone was doing the same!

One way to improve rb safety would be to place a speed bump on the approaches, this would prevent drivers joining at excessive speed (the main cause of crashes on rb's) it would have the added benefit of allowing cars to join from secondary enterances quicker and safer, at the moment you have to look a long way up the dual carriageway for a clear slot before daring to enter the roundabout.

DrivingInfo

ROUNDABOUTS

The provisions of the Road Traffic Acts and the Road Traffic (General) Bye- Laws 1964 apply to traffic on roundabouts in exactly the same way as to all roads. In summary these require motorists to drive in a manner which takes account of the prevailing conditions, at a safe speed and having regard to lane discipline. The specific rule relating to roundabouts contained in Bye-Law 21 of the Road Traffic (General) Bye-Laws, 1964 requires that "a driver shall enter a roundabout by turning to the left".
The following should also be noted carefully:

You should:
• Treat the roundabout as a normal junction which means you yield right of way to traffic approaching on the roundabout.
• IF LEAVING BY THE FIRST EXIT approach and enter the roundabout in the left-hand lane signalling a left turn and proceed to leave the roundabout at that exit.

• IF LEAVING BY THE SECOND EXIT approach and enter the roundabout in the left-hand lane but do not signal until you have passed the first exit, then signal a left turn and leave at the next exit.

• IF LEAVING BY ANY SUBSEQUENT EXIT approach and enter the roundabout in the right hand lane signalling a right turn. Keep in the right hand lane (i.e. the lane next to the centre). As you pass the exit before the one you intend to leave by, signal a left turn and, when your way is clear, move to the other lane and leave at the desired exit.

Remember that signals are merely indications of intent. They do not confer right of way. When in doubt, play safe - YIELD.

---

Basic Information giving by driving instructors about right of way at Roundabouts

Give Right of Way to

Vehicles on your Right or Vehicles already on the roundabout

Vehicles already on the roundabout: This means that you do not crash into a vehicle in front of you.

The biggest problem with people and roundabouts is their speed when approaching and using roundabouts.

SO always give way to traffic on your right and "A DRIVER MUST NOT DRIVE A VEHICLE AT A SPEED EXCEEDING THAT WHICH WILL ENABLE HIM TO STOP WITHIN THE DISTANCE HE CAN SEE TO BE CLEAR".

I hope this is clear

Regards
Drivinginfo.ie

yayamark

Would agree with shltter. its common sense all the way

in my job i've done a couple of vehicle courses and are told that on approaching a roundabout
"Prepare to stop be ready to proceed"

if you approach a roundabout you are obivously looking to your right. you have a ecision to make
the speed i am doing now is it a safe speed for me and other road users to be entering a roundabout.
that vehicle to my right is it slowing down to let a vehicle to his/her right proceed or is it going straight throug

i think asking yourself these questions before you make up your mind whether to proceed on the roundabout would be a good idea. otherwise your going to be left with a roundabout in carnage and possibly more names to our ever increasing road fatalities

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote:

One way to improve rb safety would be to place a speed bump on the approaches

Never ridden a motorcycle, have you? The last thing you need while braking, looking for diesel spills, changing down and trying to observe all traffic and predict the crazy things they're going to do is hit a speed bump - especially if the roundabout is the type where you have to start turning before actually entering it. Hitting a bump when leaned over at all is likely to lead to a loss of control.

I agree with the posters that this thread is quite revealing about the mentality of the Irish motorist and their fondness for crashing.

First question you should be asking before any manoeuvre:

IS IT SAFE?

If the answer is yes, then and only then:

IS IT LEGAL?

Even if another road user is clearly breaking the law, you will be held partially to blame for any collision if you could reasonably have avoided it, but didn't. If you see a guy flying through a red light yet you continue through the green when you could have stopped, you will be found partially to blame. The situation the OP describes is simliar, the driver sees danger and yet wants to proceed on into a collision course? Daft.

ninja900

ninja900 wrote:

Never ridden a motorcycle, have you?

Yes I have, had one for several years, the speed bump should be on the approach (100m) to the roundabout not at the roundabout, just to prevent drivers joining at speed 80-100kmh.

Hotblack Desiato

Even on a straight, speed bumps are at best an annoyance on a motorcycle, at worst positively dangerous. Bikes often can't negotiate them safely as quickly as a car can, leading to risk of being hit from behind, and far too many drivers tailgate bikes as it is

Putting in a speed bump as you describe would lead to drivers (those of the idiot persuasion) hitting the gas hard after the bump then entering the roundabout while still accelerating.

ninja900

ninja900 wrote:

Even on a straight, speed bumps are at best an annoyance on a motorcycle, at worst positively dangerous. Bikes often can't negotiate them safely as quickly as a car can, leading to risk of being hit from behind, and far too many drivers tailgate bikes as it is.

There are bike friendly bumps widely used in the UK which only go part way cross the road(looks like an oversized dustbin lid on the middle of the lane), allowing bikes & busses to pass without being bumped but cars have a narrower track that will force the wheels on one side to hit the bump, thus slowing them down.

ninja900 wrote:

Putting in a speed bump as you describe would lead to drivers (those of the idiot persuasion) hitting the gas hard after the bump then entering the roundabout while still accelerating.

Theres only so much that can be done (police car at the rb!), with all safety measures there is a balance between improving safety & impeding the flow of traffic.

BrianD3

ninja900 wrote:

First question you should be asking before any manoeuvre:

IS IT SAFE?

If the answer is yes, then and only then:

IS IT LEGAL?

Even if another road user is clearly breaking the law, you will be held partially to blame for any collision if you could reasonably have avoided it, but didn't. If you see a guy flying through a red light yet you continue through the green when you could have stopped, you will be found partially to blame. The situation the OP describes is simliar, the driver sees danger and yet wants to proceed on into a collision course? Daft.

OPs query is far from being "daft". He is asking who is supposed to give way to who on a roundabout.

As already stated, you have to have some trust in other drivers to obey the law. Otherwise everyone would have to come to a dead stop at EVERY green light in case someone decides to break a red. The whole concept of priority and giving way would be irrelevant and there would be anarchy on the roads.

Hotblack Desiato

BrianD3 wrote:

OPs query is far from being "daft". He is asking who is supposed to give way to who on a roundabout.

Who's supposed to give way to who is all very well as a subject for debate, but out on the road in the real world it's largely irrelevant. What matters is who's going to give way to who. It's all very well having a theoretical right of way but if the other guy looks like he's not going to stop, you'd be crazy to insist on proceeding.

As already stated, you have to have some trust in other drivers to obey the law. Otherwise everyone would have to come to a dead stop at EVERY green light in case someone decides to break a red. The whole concept of priority and giving way would be irrelevant and there would be anarchy on the roads.

IMHO, in Dublin city centre we're not far off that.
Especially when on a motorbike, cycling or as a pedestrian, you can NEVER trust another motorist to obey the law. You have no crumple zone and far too much at stake. You can never afford to totally trust another road user, you have to assess the probability of them doing something crazy.