Milk and Dairy

PurpleFistMixer · 13-07-2011 12:20pm

Corsendonk wrote: »

I listened to a couple of debates on the radio over the years from vegans that were advocating the total ban on animals and animal products. Moncrieff had a lady on last year that wanted us to go off meat and animal products overnight and switch to healthy organic food. You know one of those nice simple ideas that didn't have practical thought obstructing it.

Lets say that happens, what happens to the animals? Do we cull the herds? The cows still need to be milked or it suffers pain. Do we switch to organic vegetables and fruit? Where does the farmer get his farm yard manure seening that we have less animals to produce it but increased demand for farm yard manure?

In practice, that's not going to happen. Everyone isn't going to suddenly switch to veganism over night. If we did somehow manage to pull off a trick like that, I'm sure the newfound collective willpower and compassion of the population would be able to figure something out for the existing farm animals.

In reality, all that can happen (at best) is a gradual decrease in the demand for animal products, leading to a gradual decrease in the numbers of farm animals, no culling required.

Corsendonk · 16-07-2011 12:50am

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

In practice, that's not going to happen. Everyone isn't going to suddenly switch to veganism over night. If we did somehow manage to pull off a trick like that, I'm sure the newfound collective willpower and compassion of the population would be able to figure something out for the existing farm animals.

In reality, all that can happen (at best) is a gradual decrease in the demand for animal products, leading to a gradual decrease in the numbers of farm animals, no culling required.

Yes but if we do have a substantial decrease in animals where do I source my manure? Artificial fertilizer prices are already through the roof, farm yard fertilizer would only decrease and demand increase as consumers move to fruit and veg. Human Manure? Are there any truely organic humans out there if i was an organic farmer? I can't see people happy to pay 3 euro's for a single carrot.

PurpleFistMixer · 16-07-2011 8:41pm

Corsendonk wrote: »

Yes but if we do have a substantial decrease in animals where do I source my manure? Artificial fertilizer prices are already through the roof, farm yard fertilizer would only decrease and demand increase as consumers move to fruit and veg. Human Manure? Are there any truely organic humans out there if i was an organic farmer? I can't see people happy to pay 3 euro's for a single carrot.

If we had a substantial decrease in animals we would find other sources of manure. Just as if we have a substantial decrease in oil etc., we theoretically find other energy sources. Or we all starve and die, I suppose. Given there already exists artificial fertiliser, I would personally not accept "but we have to produce manure somehow" as an argument for keeping farm animals.

Corsendonk · 20-07-2011 1:28pm

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

If we had a substantial decrease in animals we would find other sources of manure. Just as if we have a substantial decrease in oil etc., we theoretically find other energy sources. Or we all starve and die, I suppose. Given there already exists artificial fertiliser, I would personally not accept "but we have to produce manure somehow" as an argument for keeping farm animals.

So far you have given no practical answers just "well we will think of something". How do you think they produce artificial or Inorganic fertilizers? Fossil Fuels

Wiki

Inorganic fertilizers are now produced in ways which theoretically cannot be continued indefinitely by definition as the resources used in their production are non-renewable. Potassium and phosphorus come from mines (or saline lakes such as the Dead Sea) and such resources are limited. More effective fertilizer utilization practices may, however, decrease present usage from mines. Improved knowledge of crop production practices can potentially decrease fertilizer usage of P and K without reducing the critical need to improve and increase crop yields. Atmospheric (unfixed) nitrogen is effectively unlimited (forming over 70% of the atmospheric gases), but this is not in a form useful to plants. To make nitrogen accessible to plants requires nitrogen fixation (conversion of atmospheric nitrogen to a plant-accessible form).
Artificial nitrogen fertilizers are typically synthesized using fossil fuels such as natural gas and coal, which are limited resources. In lieu of converting natural gas to syngas for use in the Haber process, it is also possible to convert renewable biomass to syngas (or wood gas) to supply the necessary energy for the process, though the amount of land and resources (ironically often including fertilizer) necessary for such a project may be prohibitive

Absurdum · 20-07-2011 5:42pm

Corsendonk wrote: »

So far you have given no practical answers just "well we will think of something". How do you think they produce artificial or Inorganic fertilizers? Fossil Fuels

Soil conditioners/fertilizers that vegans can use, include:

1.) Lime; which provides calcium and magnesium for your soil. Calcium is essential for strong plant growth and aids in the uptake of other nutrients. Most plants prefer a fairly neutral soil pH for optimum growth. Lime can be used to raise the soil pH level or 'sweeten the soil', if necessary. Your soil can be tested to see if you need to raise the pH level. Lime is used by some for breaking up heavy clay soil. Reducing the acidity of the soil is the primary purpose for using lime in the garden.

2.) Gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate) Gypsum is used where more calcium is needed without raising the pH.

3.) Dolomite - is a finely ground rock dust and preferred source of calcium and magnesium.

4.) Rock Phosphate - is used for its phosphorus content. Phosphorus is an essential element for plant and animal nutrition. It is mined in the form of phosphate rock, which formed in oceans in the form of calcium phosphate called phosphorite. The primary mineral in phosphate rock is apatite.

5.) Rock Dusts (or Stonemeal) are slowly released into the soil and are used in an effort to re-mineralize soil that has become depleted through industrial and agricultural practices. Rock dusts can be applied directly to the soil, in combination with other fertilizers, or added to the compost. These products have a highly stimulating effect on microbial activity.

6.) Rock Potash or potassium or wood ash - potassium is an essential plant nutrient that enhances flower and fruit production and helps ‘harden up’ foliage to make it less susceptible to disease. Rock potash is very slow-acting. The potash is released very gradually as the mineral weathers. This can take years. Use it when preparing the soil before planting.

7.) Hay Mulches -Using a thick layer of hay to cover the earth will feed the soil with organic matter as it breaks down, suppress weeds, and encourage more worms to live in your soil. Put gardens to sleep over the winter and cover them with a very thick layer of hay mulch.

8.) Composted Organic Matter consists of fruit and vegetable rinds, leaves, and grass clippings. A compost pile consists of food waste, i.e. peels from the kitchen, that is covered by course material like leaves, hay, or grass clippings. The object is to create layers of food material alternating with covering material to allow aeration. When a bin is full, the pile is flipped and covered by black plastic or weed mat to protect it from rainfall and create heat. It can be flipped again after a period of time, so the bottom becomes the top. Cover again and within a couple of months, depending on climate, nature's master recycling plan will have taken it's course and you will have vitamin rich soil.

9.) Green Manures or Nitrogen-fixing crops - 'Green Manure' is a cover crop of plants tilled into the soil. Fast-growing plants, such as wheat, oats, rye, vetch, or clover, can be grown as cover crops between garden crops and then tilled into the garden as it is prepared for the next planting. Green manure crops absorb and use nutrients from the soil that might otherwise be lost through leaching and return these nutrients to the soil when they are tilled under. The root system of cover crops improves soil structure and helps prevent erosion. Nitrogen-fixing crops such as vetch, peas and broad beans (fava beans), and crimson clover add some nitrogen to the soil as they are turned under and decompose. Cover crops also help reduce weed growth during the fall and winter months.

10.) Liquid Feeds such as Comfrey or Nettles

11.) Seaweed (fresh, liquid or meal) is used for trace elements. Seaweed is best used harvested fresh from the sea as opposed to washed up and sitting on beaches. Some veganic gardeners use bulk spirulina or kelp meal (used for potash and trace minerals).

12.) Neem - The Neem tree has been known as the wonder tree for centuries in India. Neem has been in use for centuries in Indian agriculture as the best natural pesticide and organic fertilizer with pest repellent properties and insect sterilization properties.

13.) Green Sand - is used as a soil amendment and fertilizer and is mined from deposits of minerals that were originally part of the ocean floor. It is a natural source of potash, along with iron, magnesium, silica and as many as 30 other trace minerals. It may also be used to loosen heavy, clay soils. It has the consistency of sand but 10 times the moisture absorption.

14.) EM Bokashi is a fertilizer being used by some vegans. EM means Effective Micro-organisms and consists of mixed cultures of beneficial naturally occurring micro-organisms such as lactic acid bacteria, yeast, photosynthetic bacteria and actinomycetes. Bokashi is a Japanese term that means 'fermented organic matter'. It is a bran-based material that has been fermented with EM liquid concentrate and dried for storage. Bokashi is a pleasant smelling product which you add to the compost to aid in the fermentation of the organic matter. (EM Bokashi should be stored in a warm, dry place out of direct sunlight).

15.) 'No Till method', which ironically rhymes with 'NO KILL method' is a practice that does not till the earth and kill worms in the soil. It is more gentle, from a vegan standpoint, and worm castings is an excellent fertilizer for the soil.

16.) Vermiculture, Vermicastings, Vermicomposting or Worm Castings - Worm castings are a rich, all-natural source of organic matter with lots of nutrients and moisture-holding capabilities. Earthworm castings are known to have an extraordinary effect on plant life. Castings improve the soil structure and increase fertility. Re-establish natural worm populations in your garden. Composting worms love cool, damp and dark environments (like under black weed mat or a thick layer of hay mulch), and will breed optimally when these conditions are maintained.

17.) Alfalfa meal, Flax Seed Meal, Cottonseed Meal and Soya Meal are sources of nitrogen.

18.) Epsom Salts are an excellent source of magnesium.

I'm sure the fertilizer industry will tell us how ineffective these are...

Corsendonk · 21-07-2011 12:14am

Absurdum wrote: »

I'm sure the fertilizer industry will tell us how ineffective these are...

Some of the products you listed are sold by the fertiliser industry...... epsom salts. lime etc so I say they wouldn't disagree with you using them. Surprisingly if you attend any organic growing courses the instructors preach on about the benefits of using FYM.

Absurdum · 02-08-2011 7:12pm

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3716518/Baby-calf-is-coldly-shot-in-the-head-at-a-dairy-farm-supplying-milk-to-the-chocolate-industry.html#ixzz1TMOoYBRv

Worztron · 03-08-2011 8:37am

Absurdum wrote: »

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3716518/Baby-calf-is-coldly-shot-in-the-head-at-a-dairy-farm-supplying-milk-to-the-chocolate-industry.html#ixzz1TMOoYBRv

That is horrible.

betsie · 05-08-2011 12:28pm

good god if you had dead animals about the place like that on a farm here the dept of Ag would be down on you like a tn of bricks and rightly so, thankfully the shooting of calves is also very rare here (hope it stays that way)

Serendipity99 · 05-08-2011 1:08pm

Exactly,
That's why we send them abroad to be 'shot' there instead. As long as its 'not in my back yard' it's fine, is that what you're saying?

betsie · 05-08-2011 1:56pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Exactly,
That's why we send them abroad to be 'shot' there instead. As long as its 'not in my back yard' it's fine, is that what you're saying?

no not at all now I'm from a suckler farm background so I'm not very experieced with dairy farms here but from what i know of the ones that are around me the calves are either raised to 18mths/2yrs ish on farm or sold to a farmer who raises them to that age instead, if there are alot of very young calves being shipped out of the country to be "disposed" of id be suprised but i could be wrong.

Absurdum · 05-08-2011 2:44pm

betsie wrote: »

good god if you had dead animals about the place like that on a farm here the dept of Ag would be down on you like a tn of bricks and rightly so, thankfully the shooting of calves is also very rare here (hope it stays that way)

if you read the article, they supply dairy to the chocolate industry

we import a lot of chocolate....

Worztron · 05-08-2011 3:35pm

Can chocolate be made with soy milk?

Serendipity99 · 13-08-2011 1:09am

betsie wrote: »

no not at all now I'm from a suckler farm background so I'm not very experieced with dairy farms here but from what i know of the ones that are around me the calves are either raised to 18mths/2yrs ish on farm or sold to a farmer who raises them to that age instead, if there are alot of very young calves being shipped out of the country to be "disposed" of id be suprised but i could be wrong.

Have a look at the statistics on Irish cattle for 2010: http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/animalhealthwelfare/animalidentificationandmovement/cattlemovementmonitoringsystem/AIMBOVINESTATISTICS2010.pdf

On page 40 you will see that in 2010 almost 340,000 cattle were exported live to other countries, and almost half of these were less than 6 weeks old. Page 41 gives data on where these cattle were sent - a high proportion went to the Netherlands, where they were probably put in veal crates and later killed.

Thus showing, yet again, that as long as it's "not in my back yard", it's ok to put living beings through hell.

Worztron · 13-08-2011 10:34am

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Have a look at the statistics on Irish cattle for 2010: http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/animalhealthwelfare/animalidentificationandmovement/cattlemovementmonitoringsystem/AIMBOVINESTATISTICS2010.pdf

Live exports should be banned outright. Cattle are being exported (and endure horrendous conditions while traveling) to muslim countries for the atrocious halal slaughter. Animals are being tortured to accommodate hocus pocus religious beliefs. :mad:

Serendipity99 · 15-08-2011 12:32am

Link from 'Scientific American' pointing out that vegetarianism does not save animals' lives: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2011/08/11/want-to-kill-fewer-animals-give-up-eggs-not-meat/

Absurdum · 15-08-2011 9:27am

go vegan

vaalea · 15-08-2011 10:00pm

vaalea wrote: »

And if it is not cows, then it is horses and greyhounds. Many more are born than race, where do they go? And they are retired from racing eventually, where do they go? It’s a culture of treatment towards animals. I imagine there are other reasons that there are no CAFOs in Ireland than simply the irish care more about their animals. Once other countries also didn’t have CAFOs.
“Approximately 20,000 greyhound puppies are registered each year in Ireland” http://www.tipp.ie/sportsandevents/greyhounds.htm where do they go?
“Ireland has a poor record on greyhound welfare. I am not referring solely to the greyhounds used in the sports industry. At the peak of the industry, approximately 25,000 greyhounds were born in Ireland every year. This is a huge number by comparison with the number of births in other countries. Typically, only 80 greyhounds were adopted into Irish homes per year and between 430 and 450 were adopted into European homes at the end of their racing lives. The worrying point is that 14,000 greyhounds disappear annually from the Irish radar. This is and should be a cause of serious concern. Not all the greyhounds to which I refer were used for racing; many were bred outside the industry, allegedly as pets, and were often used for illegal racing. http://www.igb.ie/top/Talking-Dogs/Reviews-And-Releases/Welfare-of-Greyhounds-Bill-2011-Second-Stage2/

This came up in my newsfeed today, from America but I don't even think greyhound racing is as popular in America? Maybe because it is more specific to certain states which I've never been. Anyway, sharing because it reminded me of my post above.

http://itseasybeingvegan.com/2011/08/14/the-story-of-moose/
"He lived in a research lab at Iowa State University for four-and-a-half years as a test subject in the racing chemistry lab — receiving regular injections of drugs. Just like in human sports, performance enhancing drugs are sometimes used in the greyhound racing industry. And just like in human sports, they are illegal. Research labs like the one at Iowa State pump Greyhounds with these drugs to find the threshold for testing “positive” for the illegal drugs."

Fergus_Nash · 15-08-2011 11:05pm

I always wondered why people don't post OP's like this one in the forum that it would generate the best debate. If this was posted in farming & forestry it would see the dairy farmers defend their industry while the vegans would attack it. And by the end of it the person in between would be able to make an informed opinion. This way however it's like preaching to the converted and we got a lot of unchallenged assertions in the opening couple of pages. Then somebody gave their point of view and we have now seen a reasonable level of discussion/debate.

(I know Boards isn't here just for the sole purpose of debate but why not debate such a contentious issue?)

Also there have been a few posts here advocating that we, as humans, can live without the need for cows.

PeakOutput wrote: »

Your dead right a world without cows would be far better

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

In practice, that's not going to happen. Everyone isn't going to suddenly switch to veganism over night. If we did somehow manage to pull off a trick like that, I'm sure the newfound collective willpower and compassion of the population would be able to figure something out for the existing farm animals.

In reality, all that can happen (at best) is a gradual decrease in the demand for animal products, leading to a gradual decrease in the numbers of farm animals, no culling required.

Which kinda gives fuel to the people who think that vegans and vegetarians are a bit mad. As opposed to feeding the world's population we have no reason to keep cows so we might as well let them become, or gradually become, extinct? A bit self defeating to me:P

poolking36 · 10-09-2011 3:05pm

NecroSteve wrote: »

Rasmus, you left out hemp milk. I love that stuff. Sprout some hemp seeds, throw em in the blender with twice the volume of water, and strain out the shells. Goes with everything, full of omegas and protein, etc. etc.

And I have to say, in a slight bout of militarism, that professing concern for animal welfare yet not being vegan is nothing other than hypocrisy. VEGANISM IS EASY!!

Hi where can I get hemp milk in Dublin?

PurpleFistMixer · 10-09-2011 3:26pm

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Which kinda gives fuel to the people who think that vegans and vegetarians are a bit mad. As opposed to feeding the world's population we have no reason to keep cows so we might as well let them become, or gradually become, extinct? A bit self defeating to me:P

Which is better:

Living a life for the sole purpose of being eaten/milked/otherwise used, potentially with great misery along the way.
Never having lived such a life in the first place.

In my opinion, it's not self defeating. I think it would be better that a species goes extinct rather than for all of its members to exist purely to be consumed (unnecessarily) by humans, and to suffer for this. Vegetarianism is not just about saving lives, it's about the quality of the lives. More life is not necessarily better if those are lives of misery.

(also I had forgotten about this thread so sorry for late response...)

Fergus_Nash · 14-09-2011 5:52pm

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Which is better:
Living a life for the sole purpose of being eaten/milked/otherwise used, potentially with great misery along the way.

Never having lived such a life in the first place.

In my opinion, it's not self defeating. I think it would be better that a species goes extinct rather than for all of its members to exist purely to be consumed (unnecessarily) by humans, and to suffer for this. Vegetarianism is not just about saving lives, it's about the quality of the lives. More life is not necessarily better if those are lives of misery.

(also I had forgotten about this thread so sorry for late response...)

Which is better:

A child is born into the poorest part of China to a life of making footballs and shoes, working 16 hours a day for practically no money, working for the rest of their lives.

This child's mother is forced to have an abortion and any other time she becomes pregnant she has to have an abortion.

I could give you lots of other examples of children born into impoverishment only to die at a young or survive and be milked (to use your term) by some terrible industrialist for profit.

Also it is only in a very small amount of time that farmers treat their cows so badly, just in the same way as human are exploited in the minority of cases. Cows get to live their lives out to the full and, while being from a farming background I won't attempt to say too much about this as I don't really know, but cows need to be milked as another poster explained.

At the end of their lives cows are killed in a factory so their meat can be used to feed people. There are health reasons why this should be so as meat is known to be good for people and is recommended to be eaten. The slaughter of cows also ensures that they do not have to endure a prolonged illness or disease at the end of their lives, instead being quick.

PurpleFistMixer · 14-09-2011 7:23pm

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Which is better:

A child is born into the poorest part of China to a life of making footballs and shoes, working 16 hours a day for practically no money, working for the rest of their lives.

This child's mother is forced to have an abortion and any other time she becomes pregnant she has to have an abortion.

I could give you lots of other examples of children born into impoverishment only to die at a young or survive and be milked (to use your term) by some terrible industrialist for profit.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make here. The conditions which result in children being born into poverty and misery should be abolished, just as the conditions which result in cows being mistreated should also be abolished. Unless you're arguing that child slavery is better than abortion or something, which is an entirely different discussion.

Fergus_Nash · 14-09-2011 9:12pm

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make here. The conditions which result in children being born into poverty and misery should be abolished, just as the conditions which result in cows being mistreated should also be abolished. Unless you're arguing that child slavery is better than abortion or something, which is an entirely different discussion.

No the point I was trying to make was that both examples, the child and the cow (in your opinion), are born into a life of misery or mistreatment. Would you think that the gradual extinction of the child is better for the child than being born at all? Just like you would for the cow?

PurpleFistMixer · 14-09-2011 10:49pm

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

No the point I was trying to make was that both examples, the child and the cow (in your opinion), are born into a life of misery or mistreatment. Would you think that the gradual extinction of the child is better for the child than being born at all? Just like you would for the cow?

I would like to see extinction of impoverished children, yes. It just so happens that we can do this by eradicating poverty, and not children (happily, since children are great). For cows, they largely exist for the sole purpose of feeding humans, so if we remove that demand, they will not have so much of a reason to exist. The extiction of a species is not good, no, but to me, "preserving a species" is not enough of a reason to perpetuate suffering of that species.

Graces7 · 15-09-2011 3:26pm

BnB wrote: »

Firstly, apologies for dragging up an old thread. I came across this thread a few months back because it was on the front page and I had always meant to come back to reply to it. Only got round to it now.
I fully respect anyone’s decision to be a vege or a vegan. But, please base your beliefs on facts. I was stunned by the number of utter lies being brandied about here as "facts"

I grew up on a dairy farm in the West of Ireland. I'm not farming myself now but a few of my friends are. My comments below relate to the dairy industry in Ireland. (I don't know anything about the industry outside of Ireland)

A few "facts" from the first post :
-Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.
-Male calves (babies, essentially) are slaughtered because they are surplus to requirements.
Calves are usually separated from their mothers at about 3 days old. They are then either bucket fed or reared by another cow. Usually an older cow who isn't a great milker any more would rear 1 or 2 calves). Calves are most certainly NOT "Slaughtered" because they are surplus to requirement. Friesen (the breed of cow most commonly used for milking) heifer calves are obviously very valuable are would be reared by the farmer to eventually become cows. There is pretty much no veal market in Ireland so all other calves are reared to cattle for the beef industry. Now, I can understand that you might have a problem with the beef industry and that's fair enough. But these calves will come from dairy herds, or they will come from sucking herds.

-Cows udders are massive (this is totally unnatural).
-Cows suffer from lameness and mastitis as a result .
Cows do not suffer from Mastitis or lameness as a result of anything but nature. Mastitis can occur when a cow is not milked regularly or milked fully. It might shock you to know, women who are breast feeding can and sometimes do also suffer from mastitis. Suckling cows, (Cows who are used only to rear a calf) are more likely to suffer from mastitis that a dairy cow as they are not "milked" by the calf as regularly as a dairy cow is milked.

Mastitis is a curse on dairy farmers and they are always on the lookout for it. When it occurs is treated straight away, and the milk from a treated cow is withheld from supply until all traces of the mastitis and the treatment are gone from the cows system. Every single milk collection from the farmer is tested by the co-ops and any trace of either will result in a reduced price to the farmer and/or fines.

-Cows are kept pregnant constantly (through artificial insemination) in order to produce milk all year round.

This is just mental - utterly mental.

Firstly, the use of "Artificial Insemination" as a scaremongering term. To explain what artificial insemination is. It is the very same concept as a sperm bank that Humans use. Prime bulls have their semen stored in dry ice. A farmer can pick the best bull from a catalog and when his cow is ovulating ("bulling" is the agricultural term) he calls up the AI company to come out.

Secondly, the cow does not get pregnant any more than she would naturally. A dairy cow will have a calf usually around March - April. She will ovulate again around July at which point, if the farmer is using AI, the AI man will be called. Or if, (as in most cases) the farmer has his own bull, the bull will be in the field with the cows. He will sniff that the cow is bullin, and he'll do his thing.
The cow will continue to be milked usually up until around November, maybe early December. At that point the cow will stop producing milk naturally and will be "dried off for the year. That is it until they calve again the following spring.

In no way or at no time is the situation forced. If you took 100 cows and a few bulls and left them loose on a few hundred acres, the very same cycle would continue ad nauseum. Calf born in spring, Cow comes bulling a few months later , bull does his thing, new calf born next spring.
The only way the cycle is ever tampered with in any way, is that some bigger farmers will have a second round of cows calving in later summer who will continue to give milk until January or February. They have the same 12 month cycle, but it just happens later in the year.
By doing this, the farmer will make sure that he has some cows milking all year round. While his Spring calvers are dry in Winter, his summer calvers will still be milking. And by the time his Summer calvers are dry, his spring calvers will be coming back in.

-Cows all end up in the slaughterhouse when they are not deemed 'useful' any longer.

I cannot argue with that. It is true. But what I would say that the life of a dairy cow is probably the best life of any farm animal. At the minute a fairly average dairy cow would cost you a minimum of €1,500. A very good cow could cost you up to €3,000 and more. Do you honestly think farmers are mistreating these animals. Purely from an economic point of view, they have to be looked after. Also, the quality of what they eat and their lives in general will directly affect the quality of their milk (which is tested and which will decide how a farmer is paid). So dairy cows get the best of grass, the best of meal, and the best of vetinary care.

There was a lot of scaremongering crap in the posts here and in those films.
Rainforests....!!!!! If you can show me how the dairy industry in Ireland caused a single freggin tree in the rainforest to be cut down, then I'll eat by freggin hat.

There are NO antibiotics and/or growth hormones in Irish milk. You just would not get away with it. As I said above, if for any reason a cow has to go on anti-biotics, their milk is not added to the tank for a period of time, and if it was, it would be picked up on by the co-op. Hormones are a huge No-no. You are talking about jail time if you are f**king around with those.

I can honestly see why someone would become a vegetarian. I was on a big commercial pig farm for the first time lately, and I can honestly tell you, it is not a nice place and it certainly makes me think twice about eating pork products since. But dairy farming in Ireland isn't even close to that.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong to give up dairy. I am just saying that if you are doing so, you should do it based on facts and not a mixture of exaggerations, scaremongering and blatant lies.

Thank you for this balanced view.

It is something I think about a great deal. Our landlord is a beef/dairy farmer and his cattle are well cared for and graze in peace all their lives.

One aspect not mentioned here is cost of food. Free range eggs cost up to three times as much as battery eggs, and what is eg a mother with five kids to feed going to choose? I am a pensioner and the cost of vegetatian food would be way beyond me. Tofu etc also and it is highly porocessed too.

I rarely eat meat, because of the price. When our landlord gave some beef,I stood and apologised to the bullocks who always come to greet me, but family in Canada reminded me that here thay have good lives.

Which is not the case there, sadly.

Chicken I eat occasionallly and no it is not organic. Again, cost.. and I buy wholesale packs of chicken legs and necks for our dogs and cats.
We have to eat-period, and that means as cheaply as we can. .They are not free range.

Eggs I now buy at the markets I trade at. Free range hens are fine by the way as are barn and deep litter.

All this was in my mind today as the new garden here is feeding me so well.. for lunch I had runner beans, cabbage and a baked potato. Supper will be cheese; the cheapest from LIDL.

I need milk and cheese of course. And I enjoy it.

But I don't miss meat much.

All living creaturs die. In the wild it is often a lingering and slow death , after a hard life foraging.

And the flesh then is wasted.

Always we need to be vigilant re conditions animals are kept in.

But our landlord is a good farmer.

Graces7 · 15-09-2011 3:37pm

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Which is better:
Living a life for the sole purpose of being eaten/milked/otherwise used, potentially with great misery along the way.

Never having lived such a life in the first place.

In my opinion, it's not self defeating. I think it would be better that a species goes extinct rather than for all of its members to exist purely to be consumed (unnecessarily) by humans, and to suffer for this. Vegetarianism is not just about saving lives, it's about the quality of the lives. More life is not necessarily better if those are lives of misery.

(also I had forgotten about this thread so sorry for late response...)

Be glad you did not suffer pernicious anaemia last century. The only treatment to save life was to eat raw ox liver.

And take care what meds you take as some are extracts from eg cows and pigs. And if you need a heart op? Pig valves are commonly used.

Your kind of idealism needs to be tempered with reality.

The cattle outside the window here do not live "lives of misery". They graze free in the sun and wind. Beautiful creatures with no fear. They are playful too.

Serendipity99 · 17-09-2011 2:52pm

Hi Everybody,

I think it might be best if people from the farming community did not post any more on this thread. As a vegan, I find comments such as "a cow would cost you.." and "the AI man.." very offensive.

My original intention with this thread was to encourage vegetarians to think about going vegan.

I realise that the original film clip that I posted was based on the situation in the UK. In the past few months I and some colleagues from the vegan community have begun collecting data and statistics on the situation in Ireland regarding the rearing of cattle and other farmed animals. We are sourcing our data from official bodies such as the Department of Agriculture. We would hope to make our findings available soon, and we will post again on this forum.

In the meantime, please have a look at Compassion in World Farming Ireland's website: http://www.ciwf.ie/index.html

Thank you.

Jimoslimos · 20-09-2011 4:51pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

I think it might be best if people from the farming community did not post any more on this thread. As a vegan, I find comments such as "a cow would cost you.." and "the AI man.." very offensive.

Sorry, but if you're going to make the sort of wild claims you have against farming then i think its only fair that farmers have a chance to answer.

Mr Vengeance · 20-09-2011 4:59pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Do humans have the right to do this to cows?

They'll do it regardless as they'll get away with.... some day it will all come back on mankind what it has done to animals all these years.

Keep up the good work people.

itsallaboutheL · 20-09-2011 5:08pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

A cow would eat you, and everyone you love, if it had the chance.

BnB · 20-09-2011 9:28pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Hi Everybody,
I think it might be best if people from the farming community did not post any more on this thread. As a vegan, I find comments such as "a cow would cost you.." and "the AI man.." very offensive.

I sincerely apologise if I offended you with my balanced and fair replies to the lies, wild exaggerations and mindless ramblings that you posted.

Serendipity99 · 20-09-2011 10:47pm

"Ownership" of another living being (ie. buying and selling them for money) is NOT FAIR.

PurpleFistMixer · 20-09-2011 11:28pm

Rational and productive discourse requires more than one side of an argument, though.

BnB · 20-09-2011 11:29pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

"Ownership" of another living being (ie. buying and selling them for money) is NOT FAIR.

Honestly... I can understand how, if you have strong feelings for animals as you obviously do, that you would take offence to people mentioning the monetary of a good dairy cow.

But I really am baffled as to how the term "AI man" would cause you such offence.

5live · 21-09-2011 9:53am

Serendipity99 wrote: »

"Ownership" of another living being (ie. buying and selling them for money) is NOT FAIR.

How not fair? That is an emotive response. Any actual reasons to back it up or is it a 'gut feeling'?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 21-09-2011 11:09am

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Hi Everybody,

I think it might be best if people from the farming community did not post any more on this thread. As a vegan, I find comments such as "a cow would cost you.." and "the AI man.." very offensive.

My original intention with this thread was to encourage vegetarians to think about going vegan.

I realise that the original film clip that I posted was based on the situation in the UK. In the past few months I and some colleagues from the vegan community have begun collecting data and statistics on the situation in Ireland regarding the rearing of cattle and other farmed animals. We are sourcing our data from official bodies such as the Department of Agriculture. We would hope to make our findings available soon, and we will post again on this forum.

In the meantime, please have a look at Compassion in World Farming Ireland's website: http://www.ciwf.ie/index.html

Thank you.

Sorry now, I do realise you're getting a hard time here and I don't like to jump on, but I'm going to have to take issue with some of what you've been saying.

First of all, if you want to improve the lot of farmed animals in this country, you're going to have to talk to farmers. What proportion of the population here is vegetarian? 4%? 5%? If even. Why not focus on getting the other 95% of the population to for instance stop eating battery farmed produce or stop eating so much meat and reduce the demand for that, and the need for farm animals, that way? To be perfectly honest seems to me like you're just preaching to the choir for the sake of talking about something you're interested in, rather than actually looking at effective ways to improve the lives of animals. I understand that you feel strongly about this, but you have to be practical. You're not going to wake up in the morning (or any morning) to a world with no farms by showing vegetarians videos. Asking farmers not to participate in a discussion where you've basically implied that they're animal abusers is ridiculous.

Secondly, if you're going to say something like "I'm offended by the words the AI man" could you please not say "as a vegan" beforehand. I'm a dietary vegan and this is why I don't tell people that, because they'll think I'm crazy.

That said, I do look forward to seeing the material you've gathering and fair play for getting it together. I think you were misguided in the way you went about things here but I do respect the strength of your convictions

Injuryprone · 21-09-2011 11:20am

Serendipity99 wrote: »

"Ownership" of another living being (ie. buying and selling them for money) is NOT FAIR.

Presumably no vegan in the world keeps a pet so

Tar.Aldarion · 21-09-2011 1:22pm

Anybody can post here. No restrictions.

/Moderator

blue5000 · 12-04-2012 5:51pm

Worztron wrote: »

Live exports should be banned outright. Cattle are being exported (and endure horrendous conditions while traveling) to muslim countries for the atrocious halal slaughter. Animals are being tortured to accommodate hocus pocus religious beliefs. :mad:

I don't think it is hocus pocus. If it is done properly it is no worse than using a so called humane killer

Worztron · 07-12-2019 4:30pm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/almost-30000-male-calves-slaughtered-at-10-days-old-last-year-968607.html

auspicious · 27-12-2019 1:08am

"... Last week (2018) thousands of Irish cattle,

hundreds in calf,

were loaded on a vessel in Cork and shipped to Libya, a journey that lasted over seven long days and nights.

The sweltering heat, lack of fresh air and stress of the journey may result in some not surviving, but death in these circumstances would be preferable to what awaits them..."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/exporting-live-cattle-1.3581055%3fmode=amp

2019 Lithuania (EU) to Israel - calves.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2vvEcJOPI

uck51js9zml2yt · 27-12-2019 11:18am

auspicious wrote: »

"... Last week (2018) thousands of Irish cattle,

hundreds in calf,

were loaded on a vessel in Cork and shipped to Libya, a journey that lasted over seven long days and nights.

The sweltering heat, lack of fresh air and stress of the journey may result in some not surviving, but death in these circumstances would be preferable to what awaits them..."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/exporting-live-cattle-1.3581055%3fmode=amp

2019 Lithuania (EU) to Israel - calves.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2vvEcJOPI

Your posting about a letter written 18 months ago with no facts to support it from people with an unknown agenda...do carry on!!

c.p.w.g.w · 27-12-2019 11:25am

I'm wondering if the Mods will kill this Zombie Thread?

Are Zombies humans or are they animals?

If animals the will need to be left alive, if humans death to the thread:D:D:D:D

gozunda · 27-12-2019 3:03pm

Sawyer Happy Rascal wrote: »

Your posting about a letter written 18 months ago with no facts to support it from people with an unknown agenda...do carry on!!

I'd agree tbh. I persume Gerry boland - is this guy here

https://www.munsterlit.ie/Southword/Issues/17/Poetry/boland_gerry.html

As for an agenda. We dont need to go to far tbh. A writer of fiction and poetry and self declared vegan and animal-rights activist. The self same 'activists' who declare they have no interest in animal welfare improving same but continuously use allegeded examples of poor animal welfare to push their own ideology.

I'd really love to know his source for that letter for 'hundreds in calf" and call bolloxs to that. Or is it just too obvious that it makes no sense whatsoever to sell healthy incalf cows for slaughter here.

FoodC · 28-12-2019 9:53am

I don't understand why you people have arguments

Let's just say- everyone can do whatever they think is good. People change their thoughts really often and if today someone thinks that milk is good, in one year the same person can make a decision to not drink milk because it isn't good.
Anyway, if someone will make this decision to not drink cow's milk here is an article about cow's milk alternatives - worth to know

auspicious · 28-12-2019 8:07pm

Over 160,000 male calves were exported to Europe last year. They are the result of the dairy industry.

The ferry journey alone is 18 hours. They are left without food or accessible water for up to 30 hours.

Libya, Lebanon and Turkey .... The slaughter methods used in these countries are brutal and inhumane.

The Dutch only consume white veal, so the calves are kept in narrow cages with slatted flooring and no bedding, and are fed milk. They do not have enough room to turn around...

“Scientific evidence indicates that young calves are not well adapted to cope with transport. Their immune systems are not fully developed and they are not able to control their body temperature well, thus they are susceptible to both heat and cold stress. . . Therefore transport should be avoided where possible, particularly as morbidity and mortality following transport can be high.”

They can suffer from motion sickness, stress and anxiety and respiratory illness, along with broken limbs and other injuries.

[ Libya, Lebanon and Turkey ]
Animals hoisted to the ceiling by one rear leg
Tendons cut to restrict movement
Stabbing in the eyes
Repeatedly hitting the animal over the head until unconscious
Fully conscious bulls having their throats slashed at

Hunger and Thirst – lengthy journeys can mean deprivation of water and/or food
Exhaustion – lack of opportunity for rest.

Animals can be left standing for many hours.
Inadequate ventilation – heat and cold stress.
Rough handling – can occur during loading or at markets
Transport of animals unfit to travel – sick, injured, young or

heavily pregnant animals

[On average 3pc of dairy cows, 1.5pc of beef cattle, 0.5pc of pigs, 0.8pc sheep and 0.2pc of goats in the EU are slaughtered during the last third of gestation, according to an expert judgement from the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA).

https://www.agriland.i...-are-in-your-county/
]

the animals are so young and the risk of catching illnesses is far higher.

How much do the exporting companies receive in subsidies?
For example, the vet inspection fees were cut to

€1,
so the balance is subsidized by tax payers.

What other subsidies are received?It’s not just live animals that are exported – it’s all the jobs in processing and packaging etc.

Solutions

Export on the hook not the hoof. Ireland is famous for it’s grass fed beef and the dept should promote this more rather than seeking new markets for live animals.More rose veal farms in Ireland. In reality rose veal calves are older than pigs and sheep when slaughtered so it’s a question of changing perception. We could export veal rather than calves.We export beef to Egypt, Qatar and China. Why can’t we export beef to Libya and Turkey?

What You Can Do?

Join with us and CIWF on Live Export International Awareness Day – Wednesday 12th June – 1-3pm. Find out more on the Event page.
Email your TDs and MEPs and ask them to help put an end to long distance transport. Contact details can be found here:
TDs
MEPs
Email Michael Creed, Minister for Agriculture, Food and the MarineEmail Phil Hogan European Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development Sign CIWF’s petition– Stena Line and Irish Ferries Stop Shipping Livestock to France for Fattening and Slaughter!
Join the Party for Animal Welfare and be part of the political solution

https://partyforanimalwelfare.ie/live-exports/

Contact Info

Party for Animal Welfare
c/o Carol Johnson
Earlshill
Killenaule
Thurles
Co Tipperary, E41 DW62
info@partyforanimalwelfare.ie

gozunda · 29-12-2019 2:25pm

auspicious wrote: »

Over 160,000 male calves were exported to Europe last year. They are the result of the dairy industry.
The ferry journey alone is 18 hours. They are left without food or accessible water for up to 30 hours.

....
Party for Animal Welfare
c/o Carol Johnson
Earlshill
Killenaule
Thurles
Co Tipperary, E41 DW62
info@partyforanimalwelfare.ie

Auspicious - rather than quoting opinion pieces verbatim - it might be useful to look at current EU regulations covering animal exports from Ireland

Under EU Council Regulation 1/2005, which states that, after 18 hours of travel by sea, calves must be unloaded from the truck, rested for 12 hours and fed on arrival at the port of destination or in its immediate vicinity before continuing to their destinations

So if yer man above is convinced that "160,000" calves are being transported without "food or accessible water for up to 30 hours" then he better get on the Department of Agriculture asap rather than writing ****e like that. .

If the regulations are not being adhered to - then that is cause to bring those responsible to the attention of the relevant authorities and not use vague accusations as contained in the piece quoted previously as a stick to beat all farmers with.

Look understand you dont like dairy or meat. However throwing the kitchen sink at everyone who do not share such views in an effort to blacken animal agriculture really doesn't work tbh.

auspicious · 29-12-2019 4:10pm

2018 - Inspection of calf trucks from Rosslare (IE) to Cherbourg (FR) and further.

EyesonAnimalsinspect
Published on Jun 15, 2018

On the 13th of March 2018 two teams from Eyes on Animals inspected calf trucks leaving Rosslare (IE) Port and heading to Cherbourg Port (FR) via the Stena Roll-on Roll-off ferry service.

There were at least 17 calf trucks onboard the ferry that day. The ferry journey took 19 hours in total (including a 1.5 hour delay). We documented that at least six of the calf trucks that came off the Stena Carrier did not stop at the first available control post, ‘Qualivia’ in Tollevast (near Cherbourg), to unload the calves as they should, according to the EU regulations. Instead they drove to a different Qualivia control post, situated in Abbeville, a further drive of 5 hours resulting in all of these trucks exceeding the maximum allowed transport time of 19 hours (9-1-9) for unweaned calves.

One team trailed one of these calf trucks to its final destination; a veal farm in The Netherlands. The calves were confined inside the truck for the first leg of the journey lasting 32hrs 11mins, a total of 13hrs 11mins over the maximum time allowed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VD74xsERxpI

Abuse at Cherbourg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gqSphSt1ntc

Estonian cattle so hungry
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UlFerufinz4&list=PLivGXH3Q26OE-uJEvO0-_I4-H6C337sOM&index=6

Water?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj8ofh1C6qM&list=PLivGXH3Q26OE-uJEvO0-_I4-H6C337sOM&index=7

We'd be in court if we did this to a dog in a car.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KrCBeTEriNk&list=PLivGXH3Q26OE-uJEvO0-_I4-H6C337sOM&index=5

38 degrees Celsius
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K7Hn-sWnPzY&list=PLivGXH3Q26OE-uJEvO0-_I4-H6C337sOM&index=13&t=0s

The EU animal agriculture live exports is vast and the indifference to the rights and needs of the animals systematic. A few unfortunate and damning videos from 2015 but things have not changed in the past four years.

gozunda · 29-12-2019 6:54pm

auspicious wrote: »

2018 - Inspection of calf trucks from Rosslare (IE) to Cherbourg (FR) and further.
EyesonAnimalsinspect Published on Jun 15, 2018On the 13th of March 2018 two teams from Eyes on Animals inspected calf trucks leaving Rosslare (IE) Port and heading to Cherbourg Port (FR) via the Stena Roll-on Roll-off ferry service. There were at least 17 calf trucks onboard the ferry that day. The ferry journey took 19 hours in total (including a 1.5 hour delay). We documented that at least six of the calf trucks that came off the Stena Carrier did not stop at the first available control post, ‘Qualivia’ in Tollevast (near Cherbourg), to unload the calves as they should, according to the EU regulations. Instead they drove to a different Qualivia control post, situated in Abbeville, a further drive of 5 hours resulting in all of these trucks exceeding the maximum allowed transport time of 19 hours (9-1-9) for unweaned calves. One team trailed one of these calf trucks to its final destination; a veal farm in The Netherlands. The calves were confined inside the truck for the first leg of the journey lasting 32hrs 11mins, a total of 13hrs 11mins over the maximum time allowed.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VD74xsERxpI[/
Abuse at Cherbourg
]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gqSphSt1ntc
Estonian cattle so hungry
Https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UlFerufinz4&list=PLivGXH3Q26OE-uJEvO0-_I4-H6C337sOM&index=6
Water? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj8ofh1C6qM&list=PLivGXH3Q26OE-uJEvO0-_I4-H6C337sOM&index=7We'd be in court if we did this to a dog in a car. Https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KrCBeTEriNk&list=PLivGXH3Q26OE-uJEvO0-_I4-H6C337sOM&index=5[/url]
38 degrees Celsius https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K7Hn-sWnPzY&list=PLivGXH3Q26OE-uJEvO0-_I4-H6C337sOM&index=13&t=0s
...

Auspicious - how does any of that long winded copy and paste go to answer the question concerning the 160,000 calves been allegedly transported without proper provision by transport companies in your previous post?

Presuming that the 17 trucks detailed above were involved that amounts to some 9,441 calves per truck.

That's some helluva size of a truck.

Incredible not one thing mentioned here about reporting these incidences to the relevant bodies.

Again reckon yet more kitchen sink throwing and using that to push animal a purely rights campaign whilst doing absolutely nothing for actual animal welfare. :mad:

Milk and Dairy

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