Milk and Dairy

I just tried soymilk today for the first time. I had it in my tea. I liked it. It obviously tasted different to dairy milk but was actually very nice.
It was also fortified with vitamins B, B12, D2 and E amongst others.

Eggs are just menstrual waste for the most part alright. But the point is that the hens who prdouce them are often kept in terrible conditions, including the free range ones.

Anyway, I don't see the appeal of something that's 80% saturated fat.

Serendipity99 wrote: »

'Truth or Dairy' is a 3-part video about why people should go vegan. If you only watch one of them - watch Part 2. They are about 7 minutes each.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxkbV5pjcnw
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v436ETAt1ac&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4kLvRmszoc&NR=1


And this is a really cool film by the Vegan Society. Its about 30 minutes long: http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/making-the-connection.aspx

Very good programs.

So don't get me wrong, I'm not anti vegan or anti vegetarian. In fact I enjoy vegetarian cooking. However, I have to disagree with some of the comments on the basis of them not being factual.

Serendipity99 wrote: »

-Cows are kept pregnant constantly (through artificial insemination) in order to produce milk all year round.

This is nonsense. Cows are not kept constantly pregnant and if they were constantly pregnant it would not be due to AI. AI is just the method to fertilize the the cow. It is the continuous milking of a cow that makes her produce milk, if the farmer stopped milking her, then she would dry up. Nothing to do with the state of pregnancy.

Serendipity99 wrote: »

-Male calves (babies, essentially) are slaughtered because they are surplus to requirements.

Rarely true in Ireland. Most male calves are left grow up and sold as beef. In some other countries veal is popular but not in Ireland. The only male calves that are slaughtered may be jerseys as they are so small but they do not make the majority of irish calves. Most Irish dairy farms use Fresians and Holsteins which can also be used for beef.

The thing is, dairy isn't all that bad in Ireland. The situation is much worse for cows in the states where factory style dairy farms exist. In some factory farms, there may be a couple of thousand dairy cows that never leave the shed where they are milked. In Ireland, most farms are small and the cows are grazed outside in spring and summer. The dairy industry is also highly regulated that antibiotics do not enter the system. In the US, hormones are allowed. Hormones were banned in Europe in the 90's.

Also mass produced alternatives of any kind may also be problematic. For example, soya industry expansion has been linked to deforestation and GM soya is also a problem for ethical food consumers. The demand for soya amongst other mass produced crops results in the loss of biodiversity as the land is used as a monoculture. Huge corporations such as Monsanto have latched onto the demand for dairy alternatives but really I'm not convinced that the mass production of anything is better than dairy. What do you think?

Firstly, apologies for dragging up an old thread. I came across this thread a few months back because it was on the front page and I had always meant to come back to reply to it. Only got round to it now.
I fully respect anyone’s decision to be a vege or a vegan. But, please base your beliefs on facts. I was stunned by the number of utter lies being brandied about here as "facts"

I grew up on a dairy farm in the West of Ireland. I'm not farming myself now but a few of my friends are. My comments below relate to the dairy industry in Ireland. (I don't know anything about the industry outside of Ireland)

A few "facts" from the first post :
-Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.
-Male calves (babies, essentially) are slaughtered because they are surplus to requirements.
Calves are usually separated from their mothers at about 3 days old. They are then either bucket fed or reared by another cow. Usually an older cow who isn't a great milker any more would rear 1 or 2 calves). Calves are most certainly NOT "Slaughtered" because they are surplus to requirement. Friesen (the breed of cow most commonly used for milking) heifer calves are obviously very valuable are would be reared by the farmer to eventually become cows. There is pretty much no veal market in Ireland so all other calves are reared to cattle for the beef industry. Now, I can understand that you might have a problem with the beef industry and that's fair enough. But these calves will come from dairy herds, or they will come from sucking herds.

-Cows udders are massive (this is totally unnatural).
-Cows suffer from lameness and mastitis as a result .
Cows do not suffer from Mastitis or lameness as a result of anything but nature. Mastitis can occur when a cow is not milked regularly or milked fully. It might shock you to know, women who are breast feeding can and sometimes do also suffer from mastitis. Suckling cows, (Cows who are used only to rear a calf) are more likely to suffer from mastitis that a dairy cow as they are not "milked" by the calf as regularly as a dairy cow is milked.

Mastitis is a curse on dairy farmers and they are always on the lookout for it. When it occurs is treated straight away, and the milk from a treated cow is withheld from supply until all traces of the mastitis and the treatment are gone from the cows system. Every single milk collection from the farmer is tested by the co-ops and any trace of either will result in a reduced price to the farmer and/or fines.

-Cows are kept pregnant constantly (through artificial insemination) in order to produce milk all year round.

This is just mental - utterly mental.

Firstly, the use of "Artificial Insemination" as a scaremongering term. To explain what artificial insemination is. It is the very same concept as a sperm bank that Humans use. Prime bulls have their semen stored in dry ice. A farmer can pick the best bull from a catalog and when his cow is ovulating ("bulling" is the agricultural term) he calls up the AI company to come out.

Secondly, the cow does not get pregnant any more than she would naturally. A dairy cow will have a calf usually around March - April. She will ovulate again around July at which point, if the farmer is using AI, the AI man will be called. Or if, (as in most cases) the farmer has his own bull, the bull will be in the field with the cows. He will sniff that the cow is bullin, and he'll do his thing.
The cow will continue to be milked usually up until around November, maybe early December. At that point the cow will stop producing milk naturally and will be "dried off for the year. That is it until they calve again the following spring.

In no way or at no time is the situation forced. If you took 100 cows and a few bulls and left them loose on a few hundred acres, the very same cycle would continue ad nauseum. Calf born in spring, Cow comes bulling a few months later , bull does his thing, new calf born next spring.
The only way the cycle is ever tampered with in any way, is that some bigger farmers will have a second round of cows calving in later summer who will continue to give milk until January or February. They have the same 12 month cycle, but it just happens later in the year.
By doing this, the farmer will make sure that he has some cows milking all year round. While his Spring calvers are dry in Winter, his summer calvers will still be milking. And by the time his Summer calvers are dry, his spring calvers will be coming back in.

-Cows all end up in the slaughterhouse when they are not deemed 'useful' any longer.

I cannot argue with that. It is true. But what I would say that the life of a dairy cow is probably the best life of any farm animal. At the minute a fairly average dairy cow would cost you a minimum of €1,500. A very good cow could cost you up to €3,000 and more. Do you honestly think farmers are mistreating these animals. Purely from an economic point of view, they have to be looked after. Also, the quality of what they eat and their lives in general will directly affect the quality of their milk (which is tested and which will decide how a farmer is paid). So dairy cows get the best of grass, the best of meal, and the best of vetinary care.


There was a lot of scaremongering crap in the posts here and in those films.
Rainforests....!!!!! If you can show me how the dairy industry in Ireland caused a single freggin tree in the rainforest to be cut down, then I'll eat by freggin hat.

There are NO antibiotics and/or growth hormones in Irish milk. You just would not get away with it. As I said above, if for any reason a cow has to go on anti-biotics, their milk is not added to the tank for a period of time, and if it was, it would be picked up on by the co-op. Hormones are a huge No-no. You are talking about jail time if you are f**king around with those.


I can honestly see why someone would become a vegetarian. I was on a big commercial pig farm for the first time lately, and I can honestly tell you, it is not a nice place and it certainly makes me think twice about eating pork products since. But dairy farming in Ireland isn't even close to that.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong to give up dairy. I am just saying that if you are doing so, you should do it based on facts and not a mixture of exaggerations, scaremongering and blatant lies.

BnB wrote: »

I fully respect anyone’s decision to be a vege or a vegan. But, please base your beliefs on facts. I was stunned by the number of utter lies being brandied about here as "facts".

I know you're talking about Ireland but the author of this thread didn't say that she/he refers to Irish dairy industry only. She/he meant general dairy industry (Irish market is only a part of global dairy market). And in general these things are facts proven by dozens of undercover investigations and documentaries. They're not lies. I've seen them myself so I don't think I was lieing myself. The fact that it might look different in Ireland doesn't mean we can "label" them as lies.

I grew up on a dairy farm in the West of Ireland. I'm not farming myself now but a few of my friends are. My comments below relate to the dairy industry in Ireland. (I don't know anything about the industry outside of Ireland)

I had a chance to compare Irish dairy industry with other countries where I lived and yes you're right. Irish cows are treated better than cows in other countries. But this doesn't mean they don't suffer.

First of all, let's straight something out here, the exploitation of any animals (e.g. "because people like the taste of milk") is unethical and painful. Animals don't belong to us and they're not our property. They have feelings, intelligence and they feel pain just as we do (btw. humans are also animals). We have no right to prey on them. Yes, our culture is based on the exploitation of animals, but that doesn't mean that it is appropriate, if you do it a little more gently.

For example:

Calves are usually separated from their mothers at about 3 days old.

That's a part of cruelty too. Studies show that cows are experiencing trauma when their children are taken away. It causes a lot of pain. In addition to physical abuse there is also psychological violence, which is present on the farms.

I cannot argue with that. It is true. But what I would say that the life of a dairy cow is probably the best life of any farm animal. At the minute a fairly average dairy cow would cost you a minimum of €1,500. A very good cow could cost you up to €3,000 and more. Do you honestly think farmers are mistreating these animals. Purely from an economic point of view, they have to be looked after. Also, the quality of what they eat and their lives in general will directly affect the quality of their milk (which is tested and which will decide how a farmer is paid). So dairy cows get the best of grass, the best of meal, and the best of vetinary care.

In theory yes, but in practice it just your assumption. Examples from the world rather suggest that these things don't prevent abuse. I see no reason why Ireland would be unique here. It's not a crime if you don't get caught. At the end of day circus people also used to say they don't harm animals because it wouldn't be good for business.

As for other issues,

Rainforests....!!!!! If you can show me how the dairy industry in Ireland caused a single freggin tree in the rainforest to be cut down, then I'll eat by freggin hat.

As far as I see it didn't refer to Ireland directly. However, in general, meat and dairy industry do affect rainforests. But if you're looking for an Irish example, all dairy farms seriously contribute to global warming and oceanic deadzones (including Irish ones). I recommend to watch PlanEat movie regarding these issue.

I was on a big commercial pig farm for the first time lately, and I can honestly tell you, it is not a nice place and it certainly makes me think twice about eating pork products since. But dairy farming in Ireland isn't even close to that.

For you, maybe if you'd be a cow, you could disagree? It's easy to say what type of suffer is nicer if you're not the one who suffers. I'm not saying that the conditions on meat farms are the same, but the devaluation of the pain of animals on dairy farms isn't okay.

I respect your opinions of course and I don't want to make you feel that I don't. However from my point of view it's all very simple. We just shouldn't use and kill animals as we don't need it to survive. We can easily live without meat and dairy. Actually either meat or dairy are not even healthy. Plant-based diet is very healthy. Not to mention that drinking other species milk is just unnatural. Would you drink a horse's milk too? Or dog's milk? Latte with German Shepherd's milk? Cow's milk is made for calves not for humans and it's very simple to understand. And if you steal it to make money it is cruel to me. Especially if there are so many alternatives out there.

Kruk wrote: »

I know you're talking about Ireland but the author of this thread didn't say that she/he refers to Irish dairy industry only. She/he meant general dairy industry (Irish market is only a part of global dairy market). And in general these things are facts proven by dozens of undercover investigations and documentaries. They're not lies. I've seen them myself so I don't think I was lieing myself. The fact that it might look different in Ireland doesn't mean we can "label" them as lies.

I do feel that these are being posted up on an Irish Message board by Irish people it is very much implying that they are true to the Irish Market. And I felt the need to point out that a lot of these facts that were being posted did not hold true in Ireland.

I understand what you are saying RE Ireland being part of a global market, but the vast vast majority of dairy products bought in Ireland come from Irish farms.

Kruk wrote: »

In theory yes, but in practice it just your assumption. Examples from the world rather suggest that these things don't prevent abuse. I see no reason why Ireland would be unique here. It's not a crime if you don't get caught. At the end of day circus people also used to say they don't harm animals because it wouldn't be good for business.

I'm not talking in theories. I'm talking facts. I grew up on a dairy farm. I am living now surrounded by dairy farms. I see it and hear about it every day. Lads often spend thousands on vets fees to get a good cow who is sick for whatever reason back to good health.

Kruk wrote: »

I respect your opinions of course and I don't want to make you feel that I don't. However from my point of view it's all very simple. We just shouldn't use and kill animals as we don't need it to survive. We can easily live without meat and dairy. Actually either meat or dairy are not even healthy. Plant-based diet is very healthy. Not to mention that drinking other species milk is just unnatural. Would you drink a horse's milk too? Or dog's milk? Latte with German Shepherd's milk? Cow's milk is made for calves not for humans and it's very simple to understand. And if you steal it to make money it is cruel to me. Especially if there are so many alternatives out there.

That is perfectly reasonable point. But I didn't come on here to argue against anyone being a Vegan. I just wanted to dispute a lot of posts and stuff that I had read in the thread that were not true.