The Sub 3 Support Thread

Oisin11178 · 16-08-2009 11:25pm

mithril wrote: »

I re-checked again, 10.18, but still a significant difference. There was only one occassion, a steep downhill, where I noticed myself running wider than some of the other runners. Other than that I thought I was taking the direct line.
I recorded my last Marathon , the Seville Marathon, on the Garmin at 42.62 instead of 42.195, which is a .420km discrepency or only 1% as opposed to 1.8% in the Phoenix Park.

Thats some big differences alright mate. The biggest difference ive had is 13.21 miles instead of 13.1 for the irish mutimarathon half marathon in clontarf. Was a bit miffed at that because i stuck to the racing line as much as i could. Ive just seen that someone else had 10.12 miles in the 10 miler, posted on the actual thread. Actually i ran a 5k in st annes park about 6 weeks ago and my garmin came in at 3.01 miles instead of 3.10 miles but people were insistant the course was measured correctly but on that day every1 had the course short on their garmins.

mithril · 16-08-2009 11:55pm

Yes, its potentially a big issue given the fine margins I am working with for sub 3.

I ran Seville in 3:03:40, and have since posted the following McMillan equivalent times which are pretty consistent.

Glengarriff Hal Marathon: 3:02
Achill Half Marathon : 3:01
Addidas 10 Mile : 3:03

An extra 0.8 % inaccuracy means 90 seconds difference which could have a huge bearing on the outcome.

WhitestBoyAlive · 17-08-2009 12:02am

Tell me how i am wrong but
how can a watch be expected to compare to officials accurately measuring the course.

After every race on boards, all we hear is 'my garmin measured it at... '

TFBubendorfer · 17-08-2009 9:32am

WhitestBoyAlive wrote: »

Tell me how i am wrong but
how can a watch be expected to compare to officials accurately measuring the course.

After every race on boards, all we hear is 'my garmin measured it at... '

It's always the official markings that count. My Garmin tends to display about 26.4 miles after a marathon - which is mainly down to me not running the shortest line.

The problem is that you have to take this into account if you use your Garmin to pace yourself. A sub-3 marathon is 6:52 pace, but if the Garmin displays 6:50 pace or slower I know I'm not on target.

wizwill · 17-08-2009 11:22am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

It's always the official markings that count. My Garmin tends to display about 26.4 miles after a marathon - which is mainly down to me not running the shortest line.

The problem is that you have to take this into account if you use your Garmin to pace yourself. A sub-3 marathon is 6:52 pace, but if the Garmin displays 6:50 pace or slower I know I'm not on target.

TFB, i think your race report from last year DCM is required reading for anyone using Garmin's to pace. I stopped using mine in races but am going back to using it after saturday as i went through the first two miles sub 12 (following clubmates) and paid dearly later on. At seven miles i started to get passed, one by one they went by, surely its the worst feeling in running, knowing that you have gone out too fast and your being picked off, the legs have nothing left to give, i will learn my lesson for the Half, i promise.

Stupid_Private · 17-08-2009 11:29am

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

I was a bit disappointed with my time from the Frank Duffy this morning - I was targeting 64:16 for McMillan's 2:59:59 marrathon time. I managed 64:51, a big improvement over last year's 66:28, but still a bit off the pace. However now I've had a bit of time to analyse (rationalise!), I feel a bit better. First of all in last month's 5 miler I ran 31:18 - 44 secs behind target. Today I was 45 secs behind the target over twice the distance, so getting better. Plugging that 31:18 into McMillan gives me 65:44, so I'm ahead there too. I haven't done much work below 6:30 per mile, and I didn't change my training at all in the lead-up to this race. - did 19 miles on undulating roads last Sat, and did a very hard interval session last Tues. I couldn't run any faster at the end, but I felt I could have managed several more miles, if there weren't any more hills!:)
Based on today, McMillan puts me at 3:01:38 for the marathon, so I guess I won't have too much to lose by aiming to hit halfway in 1:29 or so.
Fingers crossed...

Bare in mind that that was a tough 10 mile course. My time was about 1 minute 40 seconds slower than I ran on a flatter course earlier this year. Granted I'm not in the same shape as I was when I ran the faster time and I left everything out there that day, but still, it's a tough course, a lot tougher the DCM route.

Clum · 31-08-2009 1:31pm

Longford didn't go to plan.

All was going well until about mile 15 and I started to feel uncomfortable, more mentally than physically. I started slowing around mile 16 and couldn't get the pace back up. Was passed by the second lady finisher about a mile later, kept with her for a while but then the negative thoughts crept back in and I slowed again. By 20 miles I was ready to pack it in even though I was still a minute under my target schedule. I just couldn't push myself anymore and slowed drastically. This was really frustrating being on target with 6 miles to go but not being able to push on. I did pick it up again at one stage but this only lasted about a kilometer before the negativity took over again. I finished the race but the last 6 miles are something I don't really want to remember. I spent those 50 odd minutes arguing with myself and giving out....Finished almost 9 minutes off target in the end.

It was all in my head. I drank plenty of fluids and took some gels. I did a full training program and I didn't go off to fast. I'm hardly even sore today. I know I'm fit enough to do it but I just couldn't push myself on the day.

Really disappointed but I've only myself to blame. Need to be more focused the next time and be mentally prepared for a hard run. That's the biggest thing I learned yesterday and hopefully this post helps others in preparation for future marathons.

--amadeus-- · 31-08-2009 1:36pm

That sucks, sorry to hear you had a bad run.

The more marathons I run the more convinced I am that there is more of a mental than pyhsical challenge to it. How were you feeling phusically when teh negativity set in? What kind of negativity - self doubt? Have you had that in a race before? Had you done PMPs and were you feeling confident going into the race?

Having run so well for so long it really must be tough to have missed it, fingers crossed you'll nail it next time. Maybe bounce back for Dublin?

Clum · 31-08-2009 2:21pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That sucks, sorry to hear you had a bad run.

The more marathons I run the more convinced I am that there is more of a mental than pyhsical challenge to it. How were you feeling phusically when teh negativity set in? What kind of negativity - self doubt? Have you had that in a race before? Had you done PMPs and were you feeling confident going into the race?

I was feeling fine at the time. I don't know what came over me. It wasn't self doubt, I just didn't like being out there. I was running well, had just passed two relay runners and was keeping a great pace but then I just lost focus and started not wanting to be there. The further I went the more unhappy I was. One part of me wanted to push on, the other just didn't care and wanted to go home. Weird cos I was so pumped for this race for weeks before hand. Don't think I've ever felt like that in a race before.

I'd totally completed my training, I don't think anything was overlooked. My long runs were up to 22 miles, I was running 10 mile PMPs once a week and I'd hill work and speed sessions done too. I was setting PBs over 5k and 10k through out the summer. Absolutely positive I was fit enough for the job, just gave up on the day.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Having run so well for so long it really must be tough to have missed it, fingers crossed you'll nail it next time. Maybe bounce back for Dublin?

Don't think I'll do Dublin. Want to do cross country running around then.

Sosa · 31-08-2009 2:21pm

Sorry to hear the clum,you did not say your finishing time but if memory serves me,you were aiming for sub 2:40 last time i read something from you,so your training must have been savage to try get that and to have a minute in the bag with 6.2 to go and end up 9 mins outside your target is a radical difference...
Puts into perspective what i have been saying for a long time now...its all on the day,no matter what training you have done,you have to turn up on the day and produce and its not easy.
I have a feeling that i am in for a bit or hurting in the latter stages of Dublin.
I think it was Krusy on here said a while back thats its better to miss out on a really tough target time than to get waltz over the line in a more conservative one.
Im sure you will be back.
Well done

Clum · 31-08-2009 2:36pm

Sosa wrote: »

Sorry to hear the clum,you did not say your finishing time but if memory serves me,you were aiming for sub 2:40 last time i read something from you,so your training must have been savage to try get that and to have a minute in the bag with 6.2 to go and end up 9 mins outside your target is a radical difference...
Puts into perspective what i have been saying for a long time now...its all on the day,no matter what training you have done,you have to turn up on the day and produce and its not easy.
I have a feeling that i am in for a bit or hurting in the latter stages of Dublin.
I think it was Krusy on here said a while back thats its better to miss out on a really tough target time than to get waltz over the line in a more conservative one.
Im sure you will be back.
Well done

Whatever about sub 3, 2.40 is way off my capabilites. I finished in 3.08. I've gone faster before and I'm pretty sure I'll go faster again.

Thanks.

mithril · 31-08-2009 5:26pm

I ran it last year and I know what you were feeling.
Its the worst course in the country if you need some motivation in the final miles to pull you through.

Hard to find a fellow runner at your target pace to stick on because of the small entry size. Almost no crowd support and then the final few miles are on hard shoulder of the N4 which is a reasonable surface but just a horrible place to be with the cars whizzing beside you or belching fumes in your lungs when you hit the tail-back.

Sosa · 29-09-2009 10:39pm

Thought i would give this a bump to see how everyones training is going.
For those of us doing Dublin,taper hits us this weekend.
To late to change anything now....

wizwill · 30-09-2009 8:39am

anyone any thoughts on a two week taper for the DCM rather than three weeks, been laid low through illness for the last week and wont be able to train until the weekend, training was flying up until then. Plan would be to put a decent week in next week then two weeks taper.

Krusty_Clown · 30-09-2009 9:52am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

It's always the official markings that count. My Garmin tends to display about 26.4 miles after a marathon - which is mainly down to me not running the shortest line.

The problem is that you have to take this into account if you use your Garmin to pace yourself. A sub-3 marathon is 6:52 pace, but if the Garmin displays 6:50 pace or slower I know I'm not on target.

Just to echo TFBubendorfer's comments, I ran Berlinat 6:51 pace, and missed out by 50 seconds (26.5 miles, on what I thought was pretty close to the race line, which is painted on the road for most of the 26 miles). The next time, I'll be aiming for sub 6:48 at least. Best of luck with the final training.

TFBubendorfer · 30-09-2009 10:52am

wizwill wrote: »

anyone any thoughts on a two week taper for the DCM rather than three weeks, been laid low through illness for the last week and wont be able to train until the weekend, training was flying up until then. Plan would be to put a decent week in next week then two weeks taper.

Sorry, but there's no way of telling in advance what would be better.

But keep in mind, it's always preferable to be slightly undertrained than overtrained.

--amadeus-- · 30-09-2009 1:52pm

Have any of you any experience of marathons wearing racing flats?

I have the Asics Hyperspeeds which I've worn in a couple of races. They are feather light but have no cushioning whatsoever. I normally train in 2140s and am pretty light (10stone) and have a fairly neutral footstrike. I know Noakes reckons that light shoes are worth seconds per mile but I'm not sure about the battering my legs might take, especially as I'll be pacing sub 4 in Dublin the week after.

I'm thinking of doing 8 or 10 in them today and - if that goes well - an 18 progression run in them at the weekend. After that I should have an idea but I'd be interested in any thoughts or opinions/experiences?

TFBubendorfer · 30-09-2009 2:47pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Have any of you any experience of marathons wearing racing flats?

I have the Asics Hyperspeeds which I've worn in a couple of races. They are feather light but have no cushioning whatsoever. I normally train in 2140s and am pretty light (10stone) and have a fairly neutral footstrike. I know Noakes reckons that light shoes are worth seconds per mile but I'm not sure about the battering my legs might take, especially as I'll be pacing sub 4 in Dublin the week after.

I'm thinking of doing 8 or 10 in them today and - if that goes well - an 18 progression run in them at the weekend. After that I should have an idea but I'd be interested in any thoughts or opinions/experiences?

I have run my last 2 marathons in Lunaracers and won't even consider wearing anything else at this point in time. To me they are the perfect racing shoe - extremely light, but with a surprising amount of cushioning. I have worn a pair of Asics Ohana in the previous 2 marathons and my legs felt a bit beaten up at the end. I didn't have any issues whatsoever with the Lunaracers.

One thing about flats is that you should have covered a reasonable amount of miles in them before you wear them in a marathon because the heel is lower which makes your calves and achilles work harder. You need to be somewhat used to that before race day.

Gringo78 · 30-09-2009 2:59pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing 8 or 10 in them today and - if that goes well - an 18 progression run in them at the weekend. After that I should have an idea but I'd be interested in any thoughts or opinions/experiences?

Wore racing flats in half marathon 2 weeks ago and no issues after although your legs will take more of a hammering in them so while I would do the 8-10 miles run in them make sure you're ok in them, I'd say don't do the 18 mile progression in them, too much of a hammering so close to the marathon. I think you're light enough and fast enough to be suited to wearing the flats. After wearing them in the HM I wouldn't think twice about wearing them in marathon and I'm 12st.

Stupid_Private · 30-09-2009 3:09pm

Sosa wrote: »

Thought i would give this a bump to see how everyones training is going.
For those of us doing Dublin,taper hits us this weekend.
To late to change anything now....

wizwill wrote: »

anyone any thoughts on a two week taper for the DCM rather than three weeks, been laid low through illness for the last week and wont be able to train until the weekend, training was flying up until then. Plan would be to put a decent week in next week then two weeks taper.

Personally I think a lot of people taper for far too long. I'd say if your mileage is not going too far over 55-65 miles then I don't think you need more than a 10 day taper.

Abhainn · 30-09-2009 3:36pm

wizwill wrote: »

anyone any thoughts on a two week taper for the DCM rather than three weeks, been laid low through illness for the last week and wont be able to train until the weekend, training was flying up until then. Plan would be to put a decent week in next week then two weeks taper.

Two week (well 15 day to be more exact) taper for me.
Will be hitting about 57 miles this week though nothing too hard untill Sat due to DHM last Sat.
Next week will be about 55 miles.
I also think 3 week taper is a bit long myself, but thats me

Peckham · 30-09-2009 3:37pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing 8 or 10 in them today and - if that goes well - an 18 progression run in them at the weekend. After that I should have an idea but I'd be interested in any thoughts or opinions/experiences?

I think seeing how you get on in them for these training runs is the only way to answer the question. Don't P&D give a rough guide in their book as to who is suitable, and who isn't suitable for flats...think they suggest that if you're running longer than a 2:45 marathon, that you may not be the best candidate.

But I guess the only way to find out is to train in them.....

TFBubendorfer · 30-09-2009 3:42pm

Peckham wrote: »

Don't P&D give a rough guide in their book as to who is suitable, and who isn't suitable for flats...think they suggest that if you're running longer than a 2:45 marathon, that you may not be the best candidate.

Yeah, but that was written how many years ago? I don't run that fast, but my reasoning was that shoe technology might have moved on since they wrote that.

wizwill · 30-09-2009 3:50pm

Abhainn wrote: »

Two week (well 15 day to be more exact) taper for me.
Will be hitting about 57 miles this week though nothing too hard untill Sat due to DHM last Sat.
Next week will be about 55 miles.
I also think 3 week taper is a bit long myself, but thats me

Thanks for that, I would probably take 3 weeks if it was an option but i cant shake a chest infection. Sub 3 attempt dead in the water but a good pb is possible. BTW congrats on your dublin half time, superb.

Sosa · 30-09-2009 4:19pm

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Personally I think a lot of people taper for far too long. I'd say if your mileage is not going too far over 55-65 miles then I don't think you need more than a 10 day taper.

I did 56 last week,hopefully 60 this week...then 3 week taper...45,35,25.
45 is hardly a real taper...still 45 miles...more than what i was doing before i started training for this.

Krusty_Clown · 30-09-2009 4:40pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Yeah, but that was written how many years ago? I don't run that fast, but my reasoning was that shoe technology might have moved on since they wrote that.

There is a 2009 updated version of their book available. Maybe someone has a copy? I'm tempted to buy it to see if the programs have changed. I have to confess, I read extracts from this book almost daily.

Peckham · 30-09-2009 5:01pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I have to confess, I read extracts from this book almost daily.

...well it is kind of like the bible for many of us!

Sosa · 30-09-2009 5:01pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

There is a 2009 updated version of their book available. Maybe someone has a copy? I'm tempted to buy it to see if the programs have changed. I have to confess, I read extracts from this book almost daily.

I have the updated one Krusty,have not read it all but did not see anything about wearing flats in it,probably as i would not chance it,wore them for a 10k race a few months back and swore never again.

There are loads of stretching in it,and i think the programs are a bit different.

I read the tapering chapter last night as its just upon me.

--amadeus-- · 06-11-2009 5:18pm

A thread back from the dead...

Mixed bag of results for the sub 3 attempts this autumn but I thought it might make sense to have a "debrief" on what worked and what didn't in your training and your attempt.

So here goes mine:

Training:
In Rotterdam in spring I began to fade very early on so I wanted to focus much more on increasing endurance for my autumn marathon. I also figured that raw speed wasn't an issue but again speed endurance (the ability to carry race pace over time, especially when fatigued) was weak and needed improvement.

So I really concentrated on getting the LSRs in this time around. For the first time in an age I hit 1*18, 3*20 and 1*22 LSRs. Probably more important they were all run at a sensible clip; never slower than 8:30 min/mile and often significantly faster - eg a 20 miler at an average of 7:50/mile about 4 weeks before the race. One big feature of these LSRs was that the pace stayed consistent all the way through rather than fading towards the end as they tended to do in previous training cycles.

Another thing I pushed were the PMP runs. Never less than 10 miles and trying to keep the pace below 6:45 (target PMP was 6:51).

Neglected this time were LT runs and VO2 max runs. I did a couple but not a lot.

The Race:
I've done a race report elsewhere but I was 40 secs up at 35kms and lost 1:30 between 35-40kms. I did pull back 30+secs between 40-42kms to finish in 3:00:35 chip time.

So what happened?

Km1 was 4:40, which was a disaster. A gel "incident" and my HRM strap slipping off just after the start slowed me down and I had to take the HRM off, adjust it and put it back on. KM2 was then an overcompensation - 3:36. (Target is 4:15/km)

But the real pace damage was done in kms 21/24/25 all of which were 4:07. Far too fast and I didn't hit a full 5k split after that.

Things that went well - overall pacing was spot on - especially 5 - 20kms where pace was very even (at one point I ran 4 consecutive 4:13s for example). And the pace felt easy right up to 30kms or so, no doubt because my PMP runs were pitched a fraction faster. Taper was good and the work on the LSRs meant that even when I slowed I was still running 4:30s or below and was able to pick it up in the last 2kms. Fuelling was spot on - a gel at 10, 20 and 30 with a spare that I took somewhere around 38ish.

Lessons:

Pace, pace, pace. A better first 2 kms and a more even 20 - 25 and I'd be in the sub 3 club, no doubt in my mind. More LSRs, more and longer PMPs and keep the progression runs. LT and (especially) VO2 max seem less important for me so I'll do them where I can but teh focus will stay on endurance. And I'll try and up weekly mileage - while I had two weeks of 60+ my average was ~45 which probably isn't enough.

What about the rest of you?

mithril · 06-11-2009 5:45pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

A thread back from the dead...
I also figured that raw speed wasn't an issue but again speed endurance (the ability to carry race pace over time, especially when fatigued) was weak and needed improvement.

I believe you are spot on with this.
In my Spring Marathon, (Seville) I dropped 90 seconds off pace between 35-40KM as the quad muscles got very inflamed and flexibility in the legs seemed to go . In Berlin, I stayed on track during this period and maintained good running form to the finish without ever getting sore.

Its hard to isolate the specific reason but 3 things I did differently were:

1. A lot of easy hill running in base training. For me hill running is great since it gives you both an aerobic workout and muscle strengthening in one session.

2. Increased mileage from P&D 55 to P&D 70 miles a week.

3. Did a lot of exercies for core strengthening in the gym. I find a rowing machine particularly good for this even though I don't enjoy it.

wizwill · 06-11-2009 7:39pm

Amadeus, good idea for this thread.

i missed sub 3 by 9 minutes and here are my lessons learned

1. Done LSR far too fast fueling on gels. All done around 7.00-7.20 pace. I know the purpose of a LSR is to train the body to fuel on fat efficiently but i didn’t put this into practice in the mistaken belief that it would work on the day. I ended up in the farcical situation of going to 22 miles as fast in training than on race day. Next time around i will do the LSR's as LSR's, using mcmillan pacer. Next time around i wont train with gels.

2. Left the Garmin at home, a short first mile marker lead me to believe i went through first mile just over 6 minutes. This played on my mind and gave the demons all the ammunition they needed to win the battle come mile 22. I am going to live by the garmin from here onwards, every run i have done since has been with Garmin.

3. 50% of marathon is mental strength. I am going to learn and practice the recommended techniques in races.

4. Some PMP and tempo runs were neglected . Will get them right next time round.

5. Have a plan a week out from race day, don’t be deciding the night before, it might not "all come together on the day"

6. The old saying "never increase by more than 10%" isn’t just because you could injure yourself easier, its relates to illness also. You legs might feel strong but you cant "feel" your immune system. A couple of weeks injured during marathon training stifles your momentum, marathon training is all about momentum.

7. I got bad cramp during the race. Next time i will bring salt tablets.

8. No matter who you are and how hard you have trained, the marathon reserves the right to chew you up and spit you out "on the day".

ciaran_kdc · 06-11-2009 9:36pm

ergo wrote: »

first of all, have you actually read all the pages on this thread? Maybe this is not the best thread for you to post this in (as could be considered off topic by some) that's just my opinion mind you - others might answer your questions

OK, I've removed my posting, rather than transgress:o.

Sosa · 07-11-2009 1:48am

wizwill wrote: »

Amadeus, good idea for this thread.

i missed sub 3 by 9 minutes and here are my lessons learned

1. Done LSR far too fast fueling on gels. All done around 7.00-7.20 pace. I know the purpose of a LSR is to train the body to fuel on fat efficiently but i didn’t put this into practice in the mistaken belief that it would work on the day. I ended up in the farcical situation of going to 22 miles as fast in training than on race day. Next time around i will do the LSR's as LSR's, using mcmillan pacer. Next time around i wont train with gels.

2. Left the Garmin at home, a short first mile marker lead me to believe i went through first mile just over 6 minutes. This played on my mind and gave the demons all the ammunition they needed to win the battle come mile 22. I am going to live by the garmin from here onwards, every run i have done since has been with Garmin.

3. 50% of marathon is mental strength. I am going to learn and practice the recommended techniques in races.

4. Some PMP and tempo runs were neglected . Will get them right next time round.

5. Have a plan a week out from race day, don’t be deciding the night before, it might not "all come together on the day"

6. The old saying "never increase by more than 10%" isn’t just because you could injure yourself easier, its relates to illness also. You legs might feel strong but you cant "feel" your immune system. A couple of weeks injured during marathon training stifles your momentum, marathon training is all about momentum.

7. I got bad cramp during the race. Next time i will bring salt tablets.

8. No matter who you are and how hard you have trained, the marathon reserves the right to chew you up and spit you out "on the day".

Alot of the above....i agree with totally.

I was aiming for sub 3...i fell over the line in 3:14:16

Rather than start with a negative...this is what i did right.

I improved my 10k to 37:22.....5m to 29:33....4m to 23:15

Training :
I did [EMAIL="3x18@roughly"]3x18@roughly[/EMAIL] 7:30p...2x20m @ 7:50 and 7:24p...and 1x22:7@33p.
Now...did i do those to fast ?

I addition to that ( to those that followed my log ) i followed the P&D 18 week plan up to 55m.

What i did wrong :

Where do i start...in my mind all i did wrong was the following :

Sub 3 s 6:52p....i was 1:40 up by mile 10...what fcuking hope do you have after you do that for the first 10m ? no hope.
I realised what i was doing but even though i tapered back to pass though halfway in 1:29:32...my race was ran

In addition to that,i ignored racing 10m or half marathon distances.
Next time round that will all change,it is invaluable to compete in those events to get a real idea where your training is.

My PMP runs will increase...
I will run (at least) 10m,12m,14,16m @ PMP beforehand aswell as racing 10m or half marathon at full whack...and thats all while i try my best to improve my short times.

My endurance was the big problem i had...my main aim is to not feel as bad as i felt for the lat 6.2...i have no problem being tired...or weary...maybe a few aches or pains...but this thing of the whole body shutting down,
i will have to work on that.

This cannot happen again

tunguska · 07-11-2009 11:41am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

A thread back from the dead...

Mixed bag of results for the sub 3 attempts this autumn but I thought it might make sense to have a "debrief" on what worked and what didn't in your training and your attempt.

So here goes mine:

Training:
In Rotterdam in spring I began to fade very early on so I wanted to focus much more on increasing endurance for my autumn marathon. I also figured that raw speed wasn't an issue but again speed endurance (the ability to carry race pace over time, especially when fatigued) was weak and needed improvement.

So I really concentrated on getting the LSRs in this time around. For the first time in an age I hit 1*18, 3*20 and 1*22 LSRs. Probably more important they were all run at a sensible clip; never slower than 8:30 min/mile and often significantly faster - eg a 20 miler at an average of 7:50/mile about 4 weeks before the race. One big feature of these LSRs was that the pace stayed consistent all the way through rather than fading towards the end as they tended to do in previous training cycles.

Another thing I pushed were the PMP runs. Never less than 10 miles and trying to keep the pace below 6:45 (target PMP was 6:51).

Neglected this time were LT runs and VO2 max runs. I did a couple but not a lot.

The Race:
I've done a race report elsewhere but I was 40 secs up at 35kms and lost 1:30 between 35-40kms. I did pull back 30+secs between 40-42kms to finish in 3:00:35 chip time.

So what happened?

Km1 was 4:40, which was a disaster. A gel "incident" and my HRM strap slipping off just after the start slowed me down and I had to take the HRM off, adjust it and put it back on. KM2 was then an overcompensation - 3:36. (Target is 4:15/km)

But the real pace damage was done in kms 21/24/25 all of which were 4:07. Far too fast and I didn't hit a full 5k split after that.

Things that went well - overall pacing was spot on - especially 5 - 20kms where pace was very even (at one point I ran 4 consecutive 4:13s for example). And the pace felt easy right up to 30kms or so, no doubt because my PMP runs were pitched a fraction faster. Taper was good and the work on the LSRs meant that even when I slowed I was still running 4:30s or below and was able to pick it up in the last 2kms. Fuelling was spot on - a gel at 10, 20 and 30 with a spare that I took somewhere around 38ish.

Lessons:

Pace, pace, pace. A better first 2 kms and a more even 20 - 25 and I'd be in the sub 3 club, no doubt in my mind. More LSRs, more and longer PMPs and keep the progression runs. LT and (especially) VO2 max seem less important for me so I'll do them where I can but teh focus will stay on endurance. And I'll try and up weekly mileage - while I had two weeks of 60+ my average was ~45 which probably isn't enough.

What about the rest of you?

As you said Amadeus I'd say your weekly mileage was definitely an issue. Jack Daniels recommends a minimum of 70 miles/week for advanced marathon training, and sub 3hrs is definitely advanced.
I was doing around 35 miles/week up until the middle of August this year in preparation for the DCM. It wasnt nearly enough and after Frank duffy I got wise and upped the mileage to 75miles/week(gradually over a period of time). The difference was colossal. I ran 59mins in frank duffy but just a few weeks later I was doing the 10 miles in training in 57 mins. my whole game stepped up a notch. And when I increased the mileage again, there was another jump in performance. Although they werent just extra miles run at a zombie pace, everything was done at a fair clip.
So definitley crank up the mileage to at least 70miles/week, I guarantee you'll get a sub 3hr marathon, by a long way. I'd also recommend making your long run a 26 mile+ run. I know people reading this will not agree but when you take a step back and look at it you wouldnt train for a 10 mile race by only running 7 miles or a half marathon by only running 9 miles, so why would you train for a marathon and only run 20 miles or even 22 miles? When you run this distance in training your perception of 26 miles changes. You start thinking about this distance as not long at all. Its like if you run a 10 mile race for the first time you think that 10 miles is a long distance. But then you run a marathon and you look at 10 miles as nothing. This is what happens when you run 26+miles in training. It removes fear and a big psychological barrier. Plus physiologically your body becomes more efficient, at least thats what I found. The point at which I started to struggle in a long run grew further and futher away, until it never came at all. When John Treacy was training for the olympics in 1984 he did a fair few 26 milers and even two 29 milers so I think they're well worth trying. Obviuosly it'll take a little time to get up to the point where you can run 26+ in training. It'll take time, but not as much as you think. I mean if youre doing 22 mile long runs at the moment you could add on 1 mile per week or even 1 mile every 2 wks. All done at a decent pace. No use running 26 miles at zombie pace if you plan on going under 3hrs on race day.
Anyway I know this is controversial but I'd give it a go if I were you. Even just for one marathon, see what happens. If it doesnt work out theres always another marathon so not much will be lost. But I think you'll be thrilled at the results of 26+mile training runs.

nerraw1111 · 07-11-2009 3:22pm

Great thread. Some really interesting observations.

Peckham · 07-11-2009 8:05pm

tunguska wrote: »

26+mile training runs.

Not convinced of the benefits of including this in training - injury risk and impact on other training elements must be significant. As a matter of interest, do elite marathoners put in these miles in a long run before a race?

Lex Luther · 09-11-2009 9:54am

Hi this thread is still very relevant to me as I have my next attempt in a little under 4 weeks. ( I decided in August to skip Dublin because I missed about 3 weeks of quality training because of knee problems)

Lots of very interesting stuff being posted.
For my part I have 4 seconds to find from my last try in May to break the three hours.
What I'm doing different for this attempt :
(before race)
1. Made sure I hit more mid week 11/12 miles runs at MP
2. made sure that I spent at least 2.45 on my feet for at least 2 long runs ( regardless of pace/miles)
3. Increased weekly mileage by an average of 5 miles per week with no "bad" ( low mileage) weeks.
( in race)
4. Will make sure to hit half at between 1.28.45 and 1.29.30 ( last time I was too slow , 1.30.01).
5. Will really concentrate on maintaining correct pace between miles 14 and 20.

Wish me luck !
LL

--amadeus-- · 09-11-2009 5:40pm

Interesting post T.

From what I've read on other forums as well as from what I have seen on here the average seems to be 60+mpw for those who consistently go sub 3 and teh one common factor in all teh really fast runners is the high mileage. Which I guess is also a factor of time - if you do 6 min/miles in training it's easier to do a 10 mile run than if you are at 9 m/m pace. So major increases there are inevitable.

LSRs are teh big one - I know some elites do over distance training (HH says he once did a series of 30 milers in training, for example). And P&Ds 70 mpw program has a 24 mile LSR. So if you are going to 24 then logically why not 26? I know that the mental side is huge and de-mystifying the number would be a big factor. My main query would be teh pace - to be effective they'd need to be run at a decent clip and it took me a week to fully recover from pacing Dublin and that was at 9m/m. I couldn't afford that in the middle of training and doing it slower is out of teh question.

On a total offshoot - I see Barca has 3 hr and 2:50 pacers....

And good luck LL!

tunguska · 09-11-2009 5:59pm

Peckham wrote: »

Not convinced of the benefits of including this in training - injury risk and impact on other training elements must be significant. As a matter of interest, do elite marathoners put in these miles in a long run before a race?

Only one way to find out if they are of benefit and thats to give it a go. And im not being cheeky or trying to be a smart ass or anything but sometimes you gotta try things out for yourself.
In regards to the injury issue, I mean youre running 26miles so at the start theres gonna be niggles. But thats all they are. I know people who give up as soon as they have a niggle. They'll never run a sub 3hr marathon. And thats what we're talking about here, its taking things up to a different level and when you do that theres gonna be some pain. But its managable pain and the body is extremely adaptable, and before long the niggles go away and your body is stronger. I'd recommend ice baths after a 26+mile training run. Just go to the off-licence, buy a bag of ice(2 quid at most) then run a cold bath, chuck the ice in and then jump in for 15 - 20mins. They work horror show like.

shels4ever · 09-11-2009 6:02pm

Peckham wrote: »

Not convinced of the benefits of including this in training - injury risk and impact on other training elements must be significant. As a matter of interest, do elite marathoners put in these miles in a long run before a race?

30 mile runs would be very common for the elite guys, i know that john tracy was doing 30+ mile runs prior to his first marathon(still would have been well under 3 hours) ... but time on feet wouldnt have been that long, i'd be out there all day if i was doing 30 miles in training .

tunguska · 09-11-2009 6:22pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

My main query would be teh pace - to be effective they'd need to be run at a decent clip and it took me a week to fully recover from pacing Dublin and that was at 9m/m. I couldn't afford that in the middle of training and doing it slower is out of teh question.

Yeah youre right Amadeus, recovery is an issue. The way I worked it was I'd do my 26+mile training run on Sunday, having had the saturday off and having an easy run day on monday. And that did the job. So You have to be smart in regards to scheduling. But what I did notice was the more of these 26 mile runs I did, the less time it took me to recover from them. And each one I did was quicker than the previous one. So the body adapts. If youre gonna give them a go I'd start asap so that you give your body plenty of time to adapt before Valencia. Although it means youre going to have to be extra dedicated over Crimbo:).
Another factor in recovery that Ive noticed is Diet. I read this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thrive-Nutrition-Optimal-Performance-Healthy/dp/0738212547/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257786921&sr=1-2

This guy reckons the rate at which you recover is hugely influenced by your diet. Having put his recommendations into use I'd have to agree 100%. The difference is massive. When my diet was poor or not as good as it is from using this book, my recovery was mediocre. But now using this book my recovery rate has improved big time. If you nail you diet your recovery rate will shoot up.

Sosa · 09-11-2009 6:30pm

Lex Luther wrote: »

Hi this thread is still very relevant to me as I have my next attempt in a little under 4 weeks. ( I decided in August to skip Dublin because I missed about 3 weeks of quality training because of knee problems)

Lots of very interesting stuff being posted.
For my part I have 4 seconds to find from my last try in May to break the three hours.
What I'm doing different for this attempt :
(before race)
1. Made sure I hit more mid week 11/12 miles runs at MP
2. made sure that I spent at least 2.45 on my feet for at least 2 long runs ( regardless of pace/miles)
3. Increased weekly mileage by an average of 5 miles per week with no "bad" ( low mileage) weeks.
( in race)
4. Will make sure to hit half at between 1.28.45 and 1.29.30 ( last time I was too slow , 1.30.01).
5. Will really concentrate on maintaining correct pace between miles 14 and 20.

Wish me luck !
LL

Good luck Lex...

What you outlined are some of the issues i intend to correct in prep for my next marathon.

Major one is pacing...know your pace and stick to it.
Its so easy to let your mind drift

Woddle · 09-11-2009 7:08pm

tunguska wrote: »

Only one way to find out if they are of benefit and thats to give it a go. And im not being cheeky or trying to be a smart ass or anything but sometimes you gotta try things out for yourself.

I think this is a great comment and I agree 100%, you gotta try things to see what works for you, my cousin and I were just on a run having that debate and this was my stance as he doesn't agree with some of my new methods but sure if it doesn't work, I'll try sth else.

--amadeus-- · 09-11-2009 7:35pm

I've moved the goalposts - Valencia is a bit soon so currently thinking Barca with maybe Vienna or Hamburg if that is still too soon... No rush is there

I know where you are coming from with the experiment thing but my issue is that you only get 2 marathons a year and 3 - 4 months is a long time to waste doing the wrong training. That's why I'm a bigger fan of evolution than revolution.

That said has anyone ever had a bespoke program made out by a pro coach?

Peckham · 09-11-2009 9:56pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That said has anyone ever had a bespoke program made out by a pro coach?

Have considered getting one done by Greg McMillan. The fixed plans aren't too expensive, however would love to try the online coaching which is a bit pricier. Still, with the dollar/euro rate so good at the moment....hhhhmmmm...

Woddle · 09-11-2009 10:08pm

Peckham wrote: »

Have considered getting one done by Greg McMillan. The fixed plans aren't too expensive, however would love to try the online coaching which is a bit pricier. Still, with the dollar/euro rate so good at the moment....hhhhmmmm...

Ignore me I clicked on the links

tunguska · 10-11-2009 6:51pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I've moved the goalposts - Valencia is a bit soon so currently thinking Barca with maybe Vienna or Hamburg if that is still too soon... No rush is there

I know where you are coming from with the experiment thing but my issue is that you only get 2 marathons a year and 3 - 4 months is a long time to waste doing the wrong training. That's why I'm a bigger fan of evolution than revolution.

That said has anyone ever had a bespoke program made out by a pro coach?

What are you aiming for in Bracelona Amadeus, Sub 3hr attempt again? What do you plan on doing differently this time round?

shels4ever · 10-11-2009 7:33pm

Peckham wrote: »

Have considered getting one done by Greg McMillan. The fixed plans aren't too expensive, however would love to try the online coaching which is a bit pricier. Still, with the dollar/euro rate so good at the moment....hhhhmmmm...

I'd like to see what sort of plan they come up for you if you did go for that, Maybe i'm a bit stingy but i'd hate to pay for a plan that I can design myself. But then again i'm no coach ...

--amadeus-- · 10-11-2009 8:00pm

No point in just aiming for sub 3 again, IMO - why train for 4 months just to shave off 36 seconds?!

Publicly I'm committing to 2:55 but a lot will depend on training. I tend to train better over summer & race better in Autumn and Xmas is slap bang in the middle of the cycle. But I've got intentions to follow the P&D 70mile plan which would be a fairly serious step up in mileage (it would almost double it) and last time I did that I made some serious gains. Like Peckham I'm also thinking about a tailored plan.

Major differences would be discipline to follow the plan (which I always intend and never do) and that big step up in mileage.

tunguska · 10-11-2009 9:55pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

No point in just aiming for sub 3 again, IMO - why train for 4 months just to shave off 36 seconds?!

Publicly I'm committing to 2:55 but a lot will depend on training. I tend to train better over summer & race better in Autumn and Xmas is slap bang in the middle of the cycle. But I've got intentions to follow the P&D 70mile plan which would be a fairly serious step up in mileage (it would almost double it) and last time I did that I made some serious gains. Like Peckham I'm also thinking about a tailored plan.

Major differences would be discipline to follow the plan (which I always intend and never do) and that big step up in mileage.

Sounds good to me. I was actually just readin P&D and looking at the 70 mile plan. Looks like you'll have to double run it on some days. Not a bad thing though, I really like the night time runs myself. You pretty much have the streets to yourself, little or no traffic and everything is very calm and peceful. Perfect running conditions.

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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