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Smart zone alarms

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24

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    #32
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    2011 wrote: »
    Yes, but you have the opportunity to react when notified by the system. Also inertia shock sensors will detect more than a window being smashed (with gross attack setting) They will also detect the vibrations generated by a pane of glass being carefully removed (with pulse count setting).

    I’m not saying inertia sensors are not the best. Problem I see is the system they connect to is to outdated.

    I have HKC. Was installed on 50% of house and rest is covered with motion detectors. To upgrade and put sensors on rest of doors windows is twice the cost to install a new smart system myself which will provide huge benefits. If it was a new build I wouldn’t even bother with the HKC I don’t think at all....but as in I will probably use as backup but I see the smart system as more of a deterrent


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    #33
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I’m not saying inertia sensors are not the best. Problem I see is the system they connect to is to outdated.

    Because of the lack of IoT integration?
    Clearly the HKC has many more security features.
    I have HKC. Was installed on 50% of house and rest is covered with motion detectors. To upgrade and put sensors on rest of doors windows is twice the cost to install a new smart system myself which will provide huge benefits.

    I can understand the cost saving.
    Do you mean huge benefits in terms of IoT?

    I see the smart system as more of a deterrent

    Out of interest, why?


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    #34
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    2011 wrote: »
    Because of the lack of IoT integration?
    Clearly the HKC has many more security features.



    I can understand the cost saving.
    Do you mean huge benefits in terms of IoT?




    Out of interest, why?

    Smart can link into Alexa which controls majority of my house including lights , tv etc

    Alexa in US has feature to detect movement/noise etc. This is due to come out in Europe.

    Link with Philip and lights

    A house with radio blasting music out and all lights flashing red is a bigger deterrent to a burglar alarm which nobody takes any notice of anymore....I live in a huge estate in Dublin. All day every day alarms went off, nobody gave a sh*t because every evening the person would come home and just turn it off. The wind blew or something set it off

    But if I seen a house with flashing red lights and the music blasting out I would take notice, would you?


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    #35
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Smart can link into Alexa which controls majority of my house including lights , tv etc

    Yes HKC can't do that. I agree 100% that HKC has far more limited IoT integration.

    I could easily arm and disarm my HKC with Alexa or Google Home but as this would compromise security so my I am reluctant to.
    A house with radio blasting music out and all lights flashing red is a bigger deterrent to a burglar alarm which nobody takes any notice of anymore....I live in a huge estate in Dublin.

    Agreed, but all of the above can be done with any alarm. Outputs can be switched via an app for pretty much any alarm too.
    All day every day alarms went off, nobody gave a sh*t because every evening the person would come home and just turn it off. The wind blew or something set it off

    I agree that is why the comms and ho key holders react is so important. HKC (and similar professional systems) can have multiple paths of communications, GSM, home broadband, radio link etc...
    But if I seen a house with flashing red lights and the music blasting out I would take notice, would you?

    I agree that this is an advantage, but even the most basic alarms that I worked on over 20 years ago could do this.


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    #36
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I had guessed you work in alarms and of course you are going to put up a fight for HKC etc

    Unfortunately you talk about the most basic alarms 20 years ago having this feature then why is it not installed in houses?

    The issue I have and I’m not saying it’s with you personally. Alarm guys come out, alarm system is way overpriced and does the basics badly. You don’t get any additional features as you mention above or even get the option

    People have had enough, in 5 - 10 years an alarm installer will be gone, well unless you are with one of the monitoring companies....i ring alarm guy now he will offer a HKC with the app, that’s it. Or I can order all the kit online myself, install and integrate into my smart home


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    #37
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I think the issue is cost. You talk about all these features with standard alarms but howmuch to implement?

    If it costs me more to upgrade a HKC system than to install a brand new smart system I would probably falloff my seat if I asked the cost for integration for the alarm into the features which come out of the box on smart alarm


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    #38
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I had guessed you work in alarms and of course you are going to put up a fight for HKC etc

    No I don't. I did many, many moons ago. I am an electrician by trade but work in a very different role now. I have been off my tools for a very long time. My interest in alarms comes from the fact that my hobby is shooting so I have firearms in my home and I assist members (of my target club with alarms. The assistance is generally limited to advice and is free. I am not 100% sold on HKC either and would say that the Siemens offering is just as good if not better.

    For the record I don't sell any form of security services, components or devices.
    Unfortunately you talk about the most basic alarms 20 years ago having this feature then why is it not installed in houses?

    It is in some cases. Like I say I used to do it.
    Many installers did not offer this at the time as they could not be bothered / did not know themselves / did not think there was a market.
    The issue I have and I’m not saying it’s with you personally. Alarm guys come out, alarm system is way overpriced and does the basics badly.

    I agree.
    You don’t get any additional features as you mention above or even get the option

    This may be your experience with the people you have dealt with but if you go with the correct installer they will offer you all of these options.
    People have had enough, in 5 - 10 years an alarm installer will be gone, well unless you are with one of the monitoring companies....i ring alarm guy now he will offer a HKC with the app, that’s it.

    In many cases you are correct.
    Or I can order all the kit online myself, install and integrate into my smart home

    That is pretty much what I did except for the smart home bit.

    It would seem to me that the choice is between it on more secure alarms with limited IoT functionality and "smart" alarms that have limitations on the alarms side of things. The only exception I have seen to this is the Comfort Cytech.


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    #39
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I think the issue is cost. You talk about all these features with standard alarms but howmuch to implement?

    The main panel, keypad, bell box and pretty much all wired components are maybe 10% more. For example an inertia shock sensor costs around €10. The wireless components cost a lot more. The hybrid panel (that takes both wired and wireless components) comes with 4 digital outputs as standard. More can be added. The big cost is the labour, you will make a significant saving by installing yourself.


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    #40
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Cost to implement, yes the electrician is buying cheap but charging a fortune

    My wife friend. Bought a house, got price to install alarm and it was too expensive and they left. They only mentioned to meafter they got robbed and I pointed them to Yale. They could of afforded and that would have given them a chance. The Garda even recommended cameras etc, said wasting your time with other things.


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    #41
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Cost to implement, yes the electrician is buying cheap but charging a fortune

    That is the way of things. Labour is not cheap for any trade.
    Is there such thing as a cheap plumber, electrician, plasterer, brick layer?
    This is one reason that I am a DIY enthusiast!

    All I can say is that the first time I installed an alarm I had no idea. I just bought the system, laid it on the floor and wired it together as per the instruction book. I just learnt by doing it. It is really not that hard especially nowadays when you can instantly get answers for free on internet forums. Professional systems are not necessarily more complicated than smart systems.

    There is a myth out there that components for smart systems are far cheaper than professional systems, but this is not really the case.


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    #42
    Wynner05
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Wynner05


    Interesting thread, has anyone experience with https://ajax.systems/ seems like a happy medium!
    Plenty of sensor types including shock/inertia. Thinking of going with it for the new house.


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    #43
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Wynner05 wrote: »
    Interesting thread, has anyone experience with https://ajax.systems/ seems like a happy medium!

    Interesting.
    Plenty of sensor types including shock/inertia. Thinking of going with it for the new house.

    Just had a quick look, good points I see at a glance:
    - Sensor battery life, up to 7 years
    - Inertia shock sensors
    - Flood detection (not high on my list of priorities but nice to have)
    - Wireless option
    - Multiple comes paths (3G and Ethernet)
    - Wired options but only with 3rd part kit
    - Can control socket outlets. Not much of an advantage as most people into home automation have this already via some other system.

    Bad points (possibility):
    I am only looking at this on my phone for the first time so I am open to correction, but this is what I think:
    - No certification to EN50131. However it suggests that it can be connected to a monitoring station.
    - No information on battery back up for the main panel or autonomy of same.
    - No mention of integration with Google Home or Alexa.

    In summary it does not seem to offer anything that can’t be achieved with HKC or similar. The only exception might be flood protection but I think there may be a work around for this.

    Although I am a home automation fan I just wonder if integrating it to an alarm system is the best way to achieve it. I think it is best to have all smart devices under the umbrella of Google Home or Alexa. I agree that the interface / app for alarms like HKC is looking a bit dated but perhaps intruder alarms and home automation are best kept apart?


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    #44
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    2011 wrote: »

    Although I am a home automation fan I just wonder if integrating it to an alarm system is the best way to achieve it. I think it is best to have all smart devices under the umbrella of Google Home or Alexa. I agree that the interface / app for alarms like HKC is looking a bit dated but perhaps intruder alarms and home automation are best kept apart?


    My ideal would be to keep the current HKC in place. Upgrade easily with wireless devices. Without the need for an electrician


    Integrate with Alexa/google



    That is not a huge jump. But I dont expect it to happen. HKC are loved by electrician because they can charge over the top for any sort of upgrade.


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    #45
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Wynner05 wrote: »
    Interesting thread, has anyone experience with https://ajax.systems/ seems like a happy medium!
    Plenty of sensor types including shock/inertia. Thinking of going with it for the new house.


    Looks decent but a pity if you can not buy yourself and install.....


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    #46
    garion
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭garion


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Looks decent but a pity if you can not buy yourself and install.....

    I've been looking at this for a few months now. There seems to be resellers in the UK & Spain in particular that would allow for self install. Spain seems alot cheaper than UK.

    The lack of Google Home integration is disappointing but not a show stopper for me. If I purchase I'll keep you all posted on it.


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    #47
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Looks decent but a pity if you can not buy yourself and install.....

    Why do you say self install is not an option?


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    #48
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    2011 wrote: »
    Why do you say self install is not an option?

    If you look at Ireland you can only buy via home secure


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    #49
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    If you look at Ireland you can only buy via home secure

    Well spotted!


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    #50
    garion
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭garion


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    If you look at Ireland you can only buy via home secure

    There are resellers in the UK, Spain and other European countries.


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    #51
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    2011 wrote: »
    - No certification to EN50131. However it suggests that it can be connected to a monitoring station.

    No one should care, a terribly outdated standard.
    2011 wrote: »
    - No information on battery back up for the main panel or autonomy of same.

    Right there on the specs, lithium ion battery and will operate for 16 hours off the battery with no internet connection.
    2011 wrote: »
    - No mention of integration with Google Home or Alexa.

    A pity all right, but then neither does HKC.
    2011 wrote: »
    In summary it does not seem to offer anything that can’t be achieved with HKC or similar. The only exception might be flood protection but I think there may be a work around for this.

    Actually this system supports a variety of advanced sensors not typically supported by HKC, looks pretty impressive:

    - Audio Glass break Sensors
    - Curtain PIRs
    - Dual mode PIR-microwave motion sensors
    - Outdoor PIRs
    - Tilt sensors

    If your argument is that HKC system is better because of the option of shock sensors, well then this system blows it out of the water with all the above extra sensors and thus greater variety of options.

    Of course I've never used this system, so I can't vouch for it, but it looks fantastic on paper, I'd love to hear anyones feedback if they get one.


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    #52
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    bk wrote: »
    No one should care, a terribly outdated standard.

    Except insurance companies insist on this for commercial premises.....:)
    You are right, it is outdated but it is the industry standard.
    Right there on the specs, lithium ion battery and will operate for 16 hours off the battery with no internet connection.

    Not very long but perhaps this can be extended with an external unit, many alarms can accommodate.
    A pity all right, but then neither does HKC.

    I don’t really see this as an important factor TBH.
    Actually this system supports a variety of advanced sensors not typically supported by HKC, looks pretty impressive:

    Where do you get your information from?
    As all of the above work on dry contacts HKC has been able to support all from the beginning of time. This is where Yale is left far behind.

    I agree that HKC is far from perfect and even dated, I just like the fact that it is so secure and reliable. Most "smart" alarms available in Ireland lack in these areas.

    If you read back on my posts in this thread you will see that I see that my preference is the Comfort Cytech. See link.
    If your argument is that HKC system is better because of the option of shock sensors

    That is not my argument. You need to read my posts in full.

    Having looked at this system my main issues are: Being tied to one supplier, no self monitoring and no DIY option. However overall it looks like a good system.
    Of course I've never used this system, so I can't vouch for it, but it looks fantastic on paper, I'd love to hear anyones feedback if they get one.

    The fact that it can be monitored inspires confidence. Certainly in a different league to the Yale.


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    #53
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    2011 wrote: »
    Except insurance companies insist on this for commercial premises.....:)
    You are right, it is outdated but it is the industry standard.

    A poor one. Though it no longer seems to be necessary for residential premises.
    2011 wrote: »
    Not very long but perhaps this can be extended with an external unit, many alarms can accommodate.

    I'd prefer 24h's, but 16 is pretty decent, but then I've never had an outage more then 1 hour. Obviously rural areas are different. Depends on persons needs.
    2011 wrote: »
    Where do you get your information from?
    As all of the above work on dry contacts HKC has been able to support all from the beginning of time. This is where Yale is left far behind.

    From the HKC website, HKC don't make any of the above themselves. Of course as you say, you can add third party wired sensors, but pretty unusual, most installers don't sell or install these extra options. Nice to see a company offer them as standard.
    2011 wrote: »
    If you read back on my posts in this thread you will see that I see that my preference is the Comfort Cytech. See link.

    Seems like a great system, with tons of options, but quiet expensive, a lot more expensive then even HKC and difficult if not impossible to get an installer to install it in Ireland and obviously not a "consumer DIY system".

    2011 wrote: »
    Having looked at this system my main issues are: Being tied to one supplier, no self monitoring and no DIY option. However overall it looks like a good system.
    [/QUOTE]

    Looks like you can buy it from wholesalers in the UK and install it yourself and monitor it yourself.

    Hell even Amazon are selling it:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/AJ-HUBKITSIR-B-Professional-Wireless-Alarm-Siren/dp/B07Q6P9G13/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=ajax+system&qid=1578929280&sr=8-3

    Obviously I haven't tried it, so I can't vouch for it. But it definitely looks very interesting and I'll be watching it's development.
    2011 wrote: »
    The fact that it can be monitored inspires confidence. Certainly in a different league to the Yale.

    I've said it before, but I find my Yale to be superior to my HKC. Not perfect, but pretty damn decent.


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    #54
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    bk wrote: »
    No one should care, a terribly outdated standard.

    Edit:
    It would seem that Ajax care!
    I checked and although not immediately apparent from their website these systems are in fact certified to EN 50131 grade 2. In addition the smoke detectors are certified to EN 14604
    /Edit

    Despite all its failings insurance companies don’t recognize any other intruder alarm standard. Every intruder alarm connected to a monitoring station whether domestic or commercial must be certified to this standard.
    From the HKC website, HKC don't make any of the above themselves.

    I see that you have changed your argument from HKC not being able to typically “support” these devices to HKC not manufacturing them.

    So yes I agree that HKC do not make these devices but contrary to what you stated in your earlier post they do support all of these device types, unlike Yale.
    Seems like a great system, with tons of options, but quiet expensive, a lot more expensive then even HKC and difficult if not impossible to get an installer to install it in Ireland and obviously not a "consumer DIY system"

    I have only known these systems to be installed by DIYers. Have a look on this forum for an example of this. See link:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057750838

    I haven’t been able to find any that install Cytech, have you?

    When I posted HKC prices they were comparable with Yale. Do you have a link to the pricing for the Cytech systems or are you just assuming they cost a lot more?
    But it definitely looks very interesting and I'll be watching it's development.

    Agreed.
    I've said it before, but I find my Yale to be superior to my HKC. Not perfect, but pretty damn decent.

    It depends on what is more important to the end user, Yale offers better IoT features but is lacking in terms of security, HKC offers far superior security and reliability, but lacks in terms of IoT and now looks dated, and Cytech offers the best of both but it may be harder to get support as it is not widely used in Ireland.


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    #55
    garion
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭garion


    I'm picking up my Ajax kit tomorrow on a visit to Spain. Much cheaper there than via UK.

    Hope to install at the weekend. Will post back once I have it up & running.


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    #56
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    garion wrote: »
    I'm picking up my Ajax kit tomorrow on a visit to Spain. Much cheaper there than via UK.

    Hope to install at the weekend. Will post back once I have it up & running.

    Great stuff, I would be very interested to see how you get on.


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    #57
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    garion wrote: »
    I'm picking up my Ajax kit tomorrow on a visit to Spain. Much cheaper there than via UK.

    Hope to install at the weekend. Will post back once I have it up & running.

    That is brilliant, looking forward to hearing how it goes.


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    #58
    garion
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭garion


    garion wrote: »
    I'm picking up my Ajax kit tomorrow on a visit to Spain. Much cheaper there than via UK.

    Hope to install at the weekend. Will post back once I have it up & running.

    Collected! I've opened a few of the boxes and the quality seems very good.

    Let's hope the setup is straight forward!


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    #59
    Wynner05
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Wynner05


    garion wrote: »
    Collected! I've opened a few of the boxes and the quality seems very good.

    Let's hope the setup is straight forward!

    Looks great, let us know how it goes.
    I just ordered my kit from Estonia, seemed a decent price. Also noticed that a secondary contact can be added to the door protect sensors (normally closed) which is handy for my window’s, cut’s down on the door protect plus sensors I needed.


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    #60
    maxamillius
    Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭maxamillius


    garion wrote: »
    Collected! I've opened a few of the boxes and the quality seems very good.

    Let's hope the setup is straight forward!

    How much did that lot cost?


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    #61
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I was looking and seen this shop selling

    https://webshop.best-alarm-system.eu/en/products/


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