Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

AP Post Interview

2»

Comments

  • #52
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    It is definitely a game, maybe the game shows you read department policy documents and circulars, but it still, as you say, has no bearing on ability.

    The advice to brush up is solid, I hate the double speak from the department but I read a lot of research about eduction and come from a background where my first question is show me the numbers, does this actually work in the real world? This is not a popular question when faced with people who have decided to fall for the JC reform nonsense where we need to teach the kids to critically think but they don't need to learn the information that might allow them to do this in a meaningful way.......they really mean give your opinion I think! But in interview you probably do need to tone it down. I suspect one member of the panel (male and asked if my level of confidence would be off-putting to my classes????) actively didn't like the fact I was a young woman but I had the talk, the examples and had put the work in and if it is in any way comforting I got the job. It jars when you are faced with it but it's an unfortunate reality!


  • #53
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Funny that you pick up on the gender thing, I've had the exact same the other way around - do you think women would be happy to talk to a male year head... I was like, eh, are you legally allowed ask that!


  • #54
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    I suspect one member of the panel (male and asked if my level of confidence would be off-putting to my classes????)
    That's a shocking question. Talk about having a chip on his shoulder.


  • #55
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    I actually ended up in another interview with him where he referenced my age 3 times, never as a positive......bizarre stuff!

    I think the gender thing is so archaic, given how absolutely irrelevant it is to competency! But the idea that it would be asked in an interview in a private company is madness but it does seem to be acceptable in teaching interview for whatever reason. I had a few other jobs before teaching with competitive interview processes and the lack of professionalism and disinterest in actually finding out relevant information about the candidate completely shocked me. Out of 20 odd interviews, initial or promotion I've done over the years I'd say 2 of those gave the interviewera any real insight into my abilities or interest in the field of education. The rest ranged from pro forma to insane questions on catechisms


  • #56
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭Treppen


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think it's fair. There are plenty of teachers who teach subjects that attract academically able and motivated students who still can't teach and their classes are a mess.

    Students and staff know who the best teachers are regardless of what is on their timetable.

    In spite of the teacher, the academically able and motivated students can still pull it out of the bag as they have a bit more gas in the tank compared to the other weaker classes. Also, grinds can mask a lot of teaching inadequacies, and serve to keep the status quo.

    I wonder do many schools endeavour to rotate the teachers, or is it the same system of seniority gets higher level and juniors get the weaker classes.


  • #57
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Treppen wrote: »
    In spite of the teacher, the academically able and motivated students can still pull it out of the bag as they have a bit more gas in the tank compared to the other weaker classes. Also, grinds can mask a lot of teaching inadequacies, and serve to keep the status quo.

    I wonder do many schools endeavour to rotate the teachers, or is it the same system of seniority gets higher level and juniors get the weaker classes.

    In my place sometimes seniority takes the handy way and will take the lower classes for the less corrections and low expectations... Also means they can focus on the year head stuff


  • #58
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    I think it can be subject dependent too, in my option subject it really wouldn't matter who had the class at senior cycle, it's relatively straightforward to teach and is well resourced. Differentiation is almost built in. In my other subject, which is core, you'd have teachers who would prefer to/should teach HL and other who would teach OL, as long as there is consensus amoung staff I don't see this as an issue, you are playing to the strengths of your teachers to provide the best educational outcome.

    The issue I see more in schools is the soft timetables that are given when the perception is people can't do the job effectively. I would say half our staff teach a full teaching timetable of examinable subjects and would consistently have exam classes. There is a significant cohort who do very little class teaching, lots of LS, BFL etc and run various things within the school. These are never the HL maths teacher or the Irish teacher, they can't afford to give them the time off and won't find a replacement. As teacher shortages continue in certain subjects this will end up damaging the long term career prospects of these teachers (despite them doing the bulk of the actual job of the school) as they won't get a few hours a week off their timetable to sit on LS meetings or run initiatives. Often these are the most competent people in the building, but the competency based interview doesn't account for them have 4 exam classes every year and managing to get them through.


  • #59
    Icsics
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭Icsics


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    I think it can be subject dependent too, in my option subject it really wouldn't matter who had the class at senior cycle, it's relatively straightforward to teach and is well resourced. Differentiation is almost built in. In my other subject, which is core, you'd have teachers who would prefer to/should teach HL and other who would teach OL, as long as there is consensus amoung staff I don't see this as an issue, you are playing to the strengths of your teachers to provide the best educational outcome.

    The issue I see more in schools is the soft timetables that are given when the perception is people can't do the job effectively. I would say half our staff teach a full teaching timetable of examinable subjects and would consistently have exam classes. There is a significant cohort who do very little class teaching, lots of LS, BFL etc and run various things within the school. These are never the HL maths teacher or the Irish teacher, they can't afford to give them the time off and won't find a replacement. As teacher shortages continue in certain subjects this will end up damaging the long term career prospects of these teachers (despite them doing the bulk of the actual job of the school) as they won't get a few hours a week off their timetable to sit on LS meetings or run initiatives. Often these are the most competent people in the building, but the competency based interview doesn't account for them have 4 exam classes every year and managing to get them through.
    Completely agree with this. I’d actually say all these ‘middle managers’ sitting in on meetings are actually generating more work for classroom teachers, meanwhile swanning around themselves ‘managing’....this never includes teaching / setting exams / correcting / pt meetings / reports etc. SEN post holder seems to be able to assign SEN classes to all...except himself...coz he’s in ‘meetings’ . And don’t get me started on BFL, harvesting & harbouring delinquents who would otherwise be suspended / expelled ! But that’s probably a separate thread


  • #60
    djemba djemba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭djemba djemba


    This is a great thread.

    I got my pfo letter but to be honest I was a long shot.

    Very glad I did the interview and was strangely enjoyable.
    I will get feedback but now it's time to enjoy Christmas.

    Thank you to the OP and all the contributers really got me thinking.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    Rosita
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,145 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Spoke to someone who was offered an AP2 post after an interview he had to be persuaded to do and had informed the Principal to 'keep it simple as he was going to do no preparation for the interview'. Different world in his school!


  • #62
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    you'd have teachers who would prefer to/should teach HL and other who would teach OL, as long as there is consensus amoung staff I don't see this as an issue, you are playing to the strengths of your teachers to provide the best educational outcome.

    Excellent post but on this consensus aspect there are people who want the "status" of the HL LC subject but for their own reasons - often to do with their view of actual teaching as a mere stepping stone to management/politics/buzzword waffling in school - aren't willing to put the effort into improving their subject knowledge, work ethic or examining experience to justify the responsibility. The same people could be much better teachers for younger students, and they know it, but in their mind there's a "status" issue if they don't have a LC HL class. The problem for the principal is she/he has some sort of "professional development" obligation to give staff the option of teaching that level, even though it's clearly not in the interests of the students to have such teachers at LC level. There are teachers who are just not at the races in terms of putting the work in to keep the department grades high, and their existence undermines the intake of students into the subject at 5th year because the students are afraid they'll end up with that teacher. There's also the additional aspect of the stronger teacher having to flat out refuse requests to help students in that class for fear of undermining a colleague. In short, the whole subject suffers when a principal gives LC HL to somebody who wants it for the wrong reason, or is simply not capable of teaching it, and this happens far too often in our politics-heavy schools.
    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    The issue I see more in schools is the soft timetables that are given when the perception is people can't do the job effectively. I would say half our staff teach a full teaching timetable of examinable subjects and would consistently have exam classes. There is a significant cohort who do very little class teaching, lots of LS, BFL etc and run various things within the school. These are never the HL maths teacher or the Irish teacher, they can't afford to give them the time off and won't find a replacement. As teacher shortages continue in certain subjects this will end up damaging the long term career prospects of these teachers (despite them doing the bulk of the actual job of the school) as they won't get a few hours a week off their timetable to sit on LS meetings or run initiatives. Often these are the most competent people in the building, but the competency based interview doesn't account for them have 4 exam classes every year and managing to get them through.

    This, a million times and it touches on another issue, namely the lack of financial reward for teaching excellence. The "serious" subject teachers for LC HL are too valuable as teachers to be given such posts, yet to progress within a school they must do non-teaching posts such as year head. I know this will be controversial but I'm a big fan of specialisation of labour and I think if somebody is really effective as a teacher - and we do have some amazingly focused, hardworking and inspirational teachers in our schools - then they should be financially incentivised to remain teaching, rather than in effect financially punished for being dedicated to teaching. In my school, for instance, you'll frequently find the teachers whose students get the best results stay back and are giving really constructive formative feedback on the latest weekly exams, while less effective teachers are paid to do non-teaching positions such as coaching in those afterschool hours that the effective teacher spends correcting for no financial reward. That time is not coming back, love of teaching or not. And the financial penalty adds up by retirement age. Yes, they have a much better reputation in the school and genuine respect from the students but there's zero financial reward for highly effective teachers within our school system, but a variety of financial rewards for ineffective teachers in the same school system. Even if the argument is that school should be more than academics, which it should, there's still no justification to financially in effect disincentivise academic or teaching excellence and financially incentivise effective teachers to engage in areas of school life where their talents are not as effective.


  • #63
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Rosita wrote: »
    Spoke to someone who was offered an AP2 post after an interview he had to be persuaded to do and had informed the Principal to 'keep it simple as he was going to do no preparation for the interview'. Different world in his school!

    Not surprised at this. It's not unusual to see the same deputy principal positions recurrently advertised on educationposts, or the deadline extended, and my own principal told me there's a big issue in schools finding capable people who are willing to take on the DP role. In some schools, where the DP has finally learned to delegate, the YH position has accordingly become less attractive. And, of course, it all fits into the greater bureaucracy, painful buzzwords delivered by Pollyanna types, pointless meetings and waffle - "cultural change" - which our schools are being buried alive in since Ruairi Quinn's, eh, "reforms".


  • #64
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Icsics wrote: »
    Completely agree with this. I’d actually say all these ‘middle managers’ sitting in on meetings are actually generating more work for classroom teachers, meanwhile swanning around themselves ‘managing’....this never includes teaching / setting exams / correcting / pt meetings / reports etc. SEN post holder seems to be able to assign SEN classes to all...except himself...coz he’s in ‘meetings’ . And don’t get me started on BFL, harvesting & harbouring delinquents who would otherwise be suspended / expelled ! But that’s probably a separate thread

    Couldn't agree more, although I'm not sure what a BFL; given the context liúdramán, 'loafer', 'lazy person', could aptly cover the L. There is, unfortunately, a world of difference between the best and the worst. It's refreshing to see a person who is gifted at managing school and introducing genuine improvements. The vast majority of the above people, however, merely bring their lack of dedication and ambition in the classroom into their new makey-uppy administrative role, with inevitably underwhelming consequences for school efficiency and progress. Alas.


  • #65
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Gaiscioch above raises a great point, though I'm loathe to try to edit and quote such a well written piece. To be fair, it seems to be the traditional model within most places - best sales rep is made sales manager, though they may be totally inept at managing others, similarly, the best teachers are naturally drawn away from the classroom for financial reasons (and not having to listen to snakeoul salesmen) and thus students lose the benefit of that excellent teaching.

    I don't know how that can realistically be solved other than changing the overall structure of teaching - does an hour of higher level English equal 3 hours of SPHE? That'll realistically never happen and if it did it'd lead to some serious divisions in the staffroom.

    And to be honest, I think the only ones who care about this are teachers, students and parents don't really care, and thus the system will continue.


  • #66
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Completely agree re the excellent teachers you see in schools, I've seen teachers stay back several days a week after taking over classes to ensure the HL students actually sit HL, give up lunches, take rakes of extra homework home, come in the days before exams etc. None of this is helping them progress, it's love of the subject, the students and teaching. It's an old fashioned vocation, a word I think we aren't allowed use anymore! I agree keeping people who are that dedicated in the classroom is vital but I know some of the teachers I know who would fall into this catagory don't necessarily want 21.20 of HL exam classes every year, they would love to run an initiative and teach even 20 or 19 and get a AP1 or 2 over time. Most wouldn't want to go further (and probably rightly in most cases) but the current interview grading system will keep them in the classroom and they will watch people who can't control classes at all rise above them, it's awful to watch really.

    Would there be pressure on P/DP from the more ambitious members of staff to get HL LC classes? From my own, granted limited experience, they are often avoided by the more upwardly looking due to the perception of them being too much hard work (I think I may be the only member of management, AP1 or 2 currently with a LC HL class, and I have 2)


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    Icsics
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭Icsics


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Couldn't agree more, although I'm not sure what a BFL; given the context liúdramán, 'loafer', 'lazy person', could aptly cover the L. There is, unfortunately, a world of difference between the best and the worst. It's refreshing to see a person who is gifted at managing school and introducing genuine improvements. The vast majority of the above people, however, merely bring their lack of dedication and ambition in the classroom into their new makey-uppy administrative role, with inevitably underwhelming consequences for school efficiency and progress. Alas.

    Behaviour For Learning.....an NBSS programme. A teacher (no classes) ‘working with’ ‘advocating’ cherry picked students ie fully kittted out room where students drink hot chocolate & play video games until BFL teacher returns them to classes. If you are in the BFL programme you are essentially untouchable , it’s an absolute waste of resources & at the end of the day it doesn’t work


  • #68
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Isics - I'm not fully sure from reading if you're a fan of BFL? :lol:


  • #69
    Icsics
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭Icsics


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    Isics - I'm not fully sure from reading if you're a fan of BFL? :lol:

    Only the BFL teacher is a fan of BFL Deise


  • #70
    amacca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,107 ✭✭✭amacca


    Icsics wrote: »
    Behaviour For Learning.....an NBSS programme. A teacher (no classes) ‘working with’ ‘advocating’ cherry picked students ie fully kittted out room where students drink hot chocolate & play video games until BFL teacher returns them to classes. If you are in the BFL programme you are essentially untouchable , it’s an absolute waste of resources & at the end of the day it doesn’t work

    Such bull****.....like the carers that work with in community with kids with "behavioural" difficulties......some of these kids know the more malicious damage and intimidation towards staff and other kids they mete out the more trips to the cinema etc they will be bribed with...staff left with an almost impossible containment situation.

    Stuff like that rarely works. Actual consequences for bad behaviour that are enforced quickly and fairly seem to have gone out the door decades ago.


  • #71
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Icsics wrote: »
    Behaviour For Learning.....an NBSS programme. A teacher (no classes) ‘working with’ ‘advocating’ cherry picked students ie fully kittted out room where students drink hot chocolate & play video games until BFL teacher returns them to classes. If you are in the BFL programme you are essentially untouchable , it’s an absolute waste of resources & at the end of the day it doesn’t work

    Sign me up


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    Icsics
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭Icsics


    Treppen wrote: »
    Sign me up

    Ohhh not so fast Treppen....u have to ‘qualify’ for the programme, only the BFL teacher can deem who enters. Oh & only 8 on the ‘caseload’


  • #73
    2011abc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Clear from posts on last couple of pages the damage that has been done to our formerly much envied system by 'English' 'influencers' (and sorry but I think those returning irish teachers so sought after by principals must now be included amongst their ranks )Unsustainable workloads for useless pay and good as no pension vs one of the most relaxed and envied jobs at the time ...but sure at least the students are gettin' smarter , right ?Some posters would need to check their superiority complexes also ...(We all have THAT Higher Level Maths teacher in our school right ?!)


  • #74
    Random sample
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Random sample


    Has anyone any suggestions for cpd on being a year head? I will not be in a position to do a management course for a few years, and there will be a year head position coming up in our school next year.


  • #75
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Random sample wrote: »
    Has anyone any suggestions for cpd on being a year head? I will not be in a position to do a management course for a few years, and there will be a year head position coming up in our school next year.

    I did one out of Blackrock education centre. They often have free cpd courses that are really handy.


  • #76
    paulmr
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭paulmr


    Did a days CPD on the role of the year head with Harry Freeman. Would highly recommend him, very entertaining and realistic he is currently doing online cpd courses. Check his website


  • #77
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Random sample wrote: »
    Has anyone any suggestions for cpd on being a year head? I will not be in a position to do a management course for a few years, and there will be a year head position coming up in our school next year.

    Unless your a private school there is not such thing as a year head position anymore, you'd be applying for an ap1 or 2


  • #78
    Random sample
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Random sample


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Unless your a private school there is not such thing as a year head position anymore, you'd be applying for an ap1 or 2

    Year head is retiring and needs of the school document has prioritised year head positions.


  • #79
    Random sample
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Random sample


    paulmr wrote: »
    Did a days CPD on the role of the year head with Harry Freeman. Would highly recommend him, very entertaining and realistic he is currently doing online cpd courses. Check his website

    Thanks for that. A lot of his courses are already booked out, I’ll keep an eye out for more.


  • #80
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Random sample wrote: »
    Year head is retiring and needs of the school document has prioritised year head positions.

    I got an Ap1 last year. My year head role is only a part of my role, which is normal enough in schools now. The new structure means it's across the domains so in most schools it's a year head, one discrete and one broad responsibility. They can reshuffle the roles too, and actually they are meant to so make sure your covered accross all 4. Generally to make sure people are being trained in policy and school development along with the pastoral care through year head position. Interview was very much based on what I do in the school, examples of where I had improved the school for staff and students. I wouldn't worry about the master etc, several people had them but didn't score highly in the competency based interview.

    I did do Harry Freenmans middle management course a couple of years ago, it's good and he's excellent at getting people talking so it's interesting for sure.


  • #81
    Random sample
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Random sample


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    I got an Ap1 last year. My year head role is only a part of my role, which is normal enough in schools now. The new structure means it's across the domains so in most schools it's a year head, one discrete and one broad responsibility. They can reshuffle the roles too, and actually they are meant to so make sure your covered accross all 4. Generally to make sure people are being trained in policy and school development along with the pastoral care through year head position. Interview was very much based on what I do in the school, examples of where I had improved the school for staff and students. I wouldn't worry about the master etc, several people had them but didn't score highly in the competency based interview.

    I did do Harry Freenmans middle management course a couple of years ago, it's good and he's excellent at getting people talking so it's interesting for sure.

    Thanks for that. The middle management course seems to be sold out currently, I hope it will be on again before the summer.


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Random sample wrote: »
    Thanks for that. The middle management course seems to be sold out currently, I hope it will be on again before the summer.
    They're all online now so you should be able to pic any Ed Centre across the country and do it. I'm sure you could just register with whichever it is, even if you now living/teaching there.


  • #83
    Random sample
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Random sample


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    They're all online now so you should be able to pic any Ed Centre across the country and do it. I'm sure you could just register with whichever it is, even if you now living/teaching there.

    Thanks, there was a space on one of them! It’s one good thing about the pandemic.


Advertisement